Talk:Paul Singer (businessman)

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Untitled[edit]

I just created this article on Feb 17 after watching democracy now. I have never started a page (as you can tell). Any help would be much appreciated. An article on Michael Sheehan and Debt Advisory International would also be helpful. Thanks to anyone helping get this article formatted right. Bestonadventures 17:42, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

There are several things wrong with this article, not the least of which is its unprofessional tone.128.36.52.135 06:37, 23 April 2007 (UTC)David

I agree. The tone of this article really is unprofessional. It sounds biased and not at all like what one would expect from an encyclopedia.Lesbianadvocate (talk) 12:47, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

I don't accuse the author of intentionally doing so, but this page reads like a PR puff piece, not an encyclopedia entry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.84.102.34 (talk) 11:31, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Cleaning up this page[edit]

Hello, given the comments here on the talk page, I wanted to step in and make some improvements to the page. As I have identified in both my username and in my userpage, I work in the financial services industry, have met a number of figures, including Paul Singer, and have done some work with his funds.

Obviously, I intend to abide by all Wikipedia rules, keeping in mind especially WP:BLP and WP:COI. However, there is clearly some basic low-hanging fruit that can improve this page dramatically and bring it up to wikipedia standards. I look forward to discussing the page with other people. Hedgefundfriend (talk) 14:20, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Clean up?[edit]

Dear HedgeFundFriend

Is a 'hedge fund friend' the right person to "clean this page up"? Presently, as noted above, this article reads like a PR piece for Singer, and very much not like an objective biography. I am going to start the ball rolling with a few changes to try to get a more balanced tone. If you or someone else has the time and knowledge and objectivity then please continue. Harry "Snapper" Organs (talk) 05:25, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

NOTE: I've just discovered that User:Hedgefundfriend was banned as a sockpuppet account -- further reason to regard his edits with suspicion. Cgingold (talk) 00:49, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Links to consider[edit]

Just some links I came across, putting them here for reference later. I'll add some of these (though others are clearly not suitable; just for information). [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] The Sound and the Fury (talk) 17:41, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Edits from an official source[edit]

Hello -- I am affiliated with the Paul E. Singer Foundation. We at the Foundation would like to make some edits to this page to clear up some factual inaccuracies and add context. We are happy to make these edits in conjunction with the Wikipedia community, and we wish to do so in a spirit of transparency, openness, and fairness. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SingerFoundation (talkcontribs) 23:56, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Hi there, and thanks for your message and for disclosing your affiliation. If you haven't already, reading Wikipedia:Conflict of interest will be helpful. In terms of making edits to any pages affiliated with Paul Singer, I recommend that you read Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources as well. All additions/deletions of the article's content need to be accompanied by an independent, reliable source that verifies the information. I recommend that you post any suggested edits here on the talk page first in order to get consensus before editing the article itself. Please feel free to let me know if you have any questions. Thanks. Safehaven86 (talk) 00:48, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Safehaven. For now, I'm going to undo your edits to my edits to the Philanthropy section, because as I explained on your Talk page, the previous information was incorrect due to a confusion between the Paul E. Singer Foundation and the Paul and Emily Singer Family Foundation, which are distinct entities and not related to one another. I will post additional suggested edits for discussion when I have more time. SingerFoundation (talk) 02:02, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

I checked the sources for the material you deleted, and they do mention the Paul Singer Foundation. While it is possible the sources themselves may be wrong, keep in mind Wikipedia:Verifiability, not truth. The facts stated in the article, with references to reliable sources, cannot be removed unless you can introduce some alternative compelling sources stating that the original sources were in error. Your edit stating that "Paul Singer is a committed philanthropist" is not in line with the Wikipedia:Neutral point of view policy. While Paul Singer may indeed be a committed philanthropist, that can be shown neutrally via discussion of his philanthropic activities, and not by simply making the claim. Thanks. Safehaven86 (talk) 03:41, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

Lee Fang[edit]

I removed the statement below because I don't see how ThinkProgress can be considered an RS.

Lee Fang, writing for the progressive political blog ThinkProgress, claimed that 'the rise of Singer’s political profile can be traced to his work as a top donor to pro-Bush character-assassination (sic) groups like the Swift Boat Veterans."

I am up for discussion on this and would like to know why it should be included on the page. Thanks! Meatsgains (talk) 21:41, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Romney and Delphi[edit]

I removed the Romney and Delphi section and its contents because this type of information does not belong on Paul Singer's personal page. Delphi was an investment that Elliott Management Corporation made. Thanks! Meatsgains (talk) 22:34, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

I've restored this section, as it is directly relevant to Singer, and not just his company. This reference in that section includes:

Romney's windfall from the bailout is directly tied to his relationship with Paul Singer, the billionaire hedge fund manager who donated $1 million to the Republican's presidential campaign in April.

This reference says:

Singer's fund bought, for twenty cents on the dollar, Delphi bonds -- lots of them. With Delphi under Singer's control, he threatened to shut it down unless the taxpayer bailed it out -- holding General Motors and Chrysler hostage, because if Delphi shut down, the companies would lack steering columns and other essential parts. After getting his way, and a $7.3 billion bailout from the public, Singer then closed all but five U.S. plants to move these operations and 25,000 jobs to China. Mitt Romney's investments in Singer's fund help make this loss of American jobs possible.

Since it's talking about Singer's direct involvement, and not just something the company did with or without his consent, the section should stay. Ruby Murray 07:28, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
I've also added the original Nation article in this reference that the two above used as a source, and it discusses Singer's direct involvement at length. Ruby Murray 08:42, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
I understand you see this section as relevant and there are connections but Singer and Elliott Management Corporation are two different entities. Singer's page is a BLP and is independent from the corporation. I don't think that Elliott Management Corporation's actions should be reflected on Singer's page. The quote you pulled from the Huffington Post stated that the Romney's invested in "Singer's fund," which is EMC. Again, Singer's fund is not directly tied to Singer but rather the corporation.
The page already includes Singer's $1 million donation to the Republican's presidential campaign in support of Romney but I don't see how this automatically creates a "relationship" between the two. How close of a relationship do Singer and Romney really have? Singer has donated and fundraised for a number of different clubs, organizations, and individuals.
Yes, the sources you used are reliable but the the quote, “Mitt Romney's investments in Singer's fund help make this loss of American jobs possible” is not from a neutral point of view. It is a bias statement from a progressive contributor to the Huffington Post. Wouldn't you agree that this reads more like a tabloid than an encyclopedia? Let me know your thoughts. Meatsgains (talk) 23:46, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
I agree with you that the Huffington Post quotes were both POV and unnecessary, so I've replaced them with a more neutral description. But Singer's personal involvement in the Delphi incident is detailed in the original Nation article, so the section is relevant for a BLP. If you think the section needs further improvements in wording for NPOV, then let's fix that, rather than delete the section. Ruby Murray 06:25, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
To start off, the original Nation article is heavily slanted in opposition of Singer. Each time the hedge fund (EMC) is mentioned, the article intentionally tagged Singer's name to it to make him appear as the bad guy. I pulled a number of biased quotes from the Nation article that are specific in stating the corporation's involvement.
  • "One of the hedge funds profiting from that bailout—
$1.28 billion so far—is Elliott Management, directed by 
Paul Singer."
  • "Mitt Romney investing at least $1 million with Elliott"
  • "Singer’s Elliott bought Delphi debt"
  • "Elliott’s purchases cost just 20 cents on the dollar of their face value."
  • "the hedge funds, under Singer’s lead, used their bonds to buy up a controlling interest in Delphi’s stock."
  • "the Singer syndicate took Delphi public at $22 a share"
  • "Singer’s fund investors scored a gain of $904 million"
  • "Singer’s funds and partners, combining what they’ve sold and what they hold, have $1.29 billion in profits, about forty-four times their original investment."
  • "GM also forgave $2.5 billion in debt owed to it by Delphi, and $2 billion due from Singer and company upon Delphi’s exit from Chapter 11 bankruptcy."
  • "Delphi’s management—now effectively under the hedge funders’ control"
  • "After the hedge fund takeover of Delphi"
  • "The Romneys were invested with Elliott Management"
The article made the reader full aware of Singer's ties with the hedge fund but I couldn't find a quote that stated Singer was personally responsible; it was Elliott Management Corporation. The original article would say things like "Singer's fund", "the Singer syndicate", or "Singer and company" to make it appear to the reader that he was the only one responsible. I realize he is the director of EMC but it is the decisions of the corporation not solely his. I just don't see how the information about the hedge fund's involvement belongs on his personal page. Meatsgains (talk) 04:34, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
Singer has more than just "ties with the hedge fund". He founded Elliott, and he's the CEO. References in the article state that Singer personally (not his company) donated $1 million to the Romney campaign. The Romneys invested in Singer's company. Singer's company and Romney made the mutually profitable deal described. We don't need verification that Singer was personally responsible: if he, as CEO of the company, wasn't aware of any of this, then that's just as significant in a bio. If you'd like to point out in that section that there's no evidence that Singer knew of the deal, I'd have no objection. Ruby Murray 09:44, 7 November 2013 (UTC)
I've added cites from Fortune, Forbes and the New York Post, which say essentially the same thing: Singer was responsible for the Delphi deal. Ruby Murray 10:23, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

RfC: Does the "Romney and Delphi" section belong on Singer's personal page?[edit]

There is a clear consensus that the "Romney and Delphi" section should be removed from this page. However, as the section was entirely rewritten in the meantime by CMBJ (section now called "Delphi Automotive"), this issue may be moot. Anyone is free to remove the section at his own discretion. Armbrust The Homunculus 14:03, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Should the "Romney and Delphi" section be removed? Meatsgains (talk) 05:19, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

(old) Survey[edit]

  • Support keeping the section.
  • Oppose, it does not belong on a BLP. Meatsgains (talk) 05:19, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose. This information could belong in a BLP if it was well sourced. However, it appears that it relies on a single source (Nation) with a clear POV. Rather than indicate a well-established relationship between Singer and Romney, the source uses innuendo and inference to create this linkage. Singer's fund and Singer the individual are two separate and distinct entities. One possible solution is to have a section on EMC and, within the body of that section, briefly mention some of its high profile investments. Beyond that, we begin to overreach the scope of a BLP. Factchecker25 (talk) 13:35, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
I agree. Singer and EMC are completely independent from each other when it comes to a BLP. Why is there a section on the Romney Delphi deal on his personal page but none of EMC's other deals? Seems like there is a motive behind adding this information to his personal page. Meatsgains (talk) 05:19, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Making the claim that Singer had a "reputation for strong-arming his way to profit" and not including examples of his other investment endeavors violates WP:POV and should be removed from the article (unless additional sources are available to balance the POV of the paragraph.) Comatmebro ~Come at me~ 17:43, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

Threaded discussion[edit]

  • Singer had knowledge of Elliott Management Corporation's deal but that isn't cause to put it in his page. I'm sure he has knowledge of every deal that comes through EMC. Does that mean that every deal he's ever known belongs on his page? I don't think so. Let me hear your thoughts. Meatsgains (talk) 05:19, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
    • An encyclopedic article is not the place to make determinations regarding what a person knew or did not know as this is pure conjecture. The issue is whether a specific deal undertaken by a company with which the subject of a BLP is associated should be given undue weight in the BLP. It seems the consensus view is that it should not as it violates NPOV. Factchecker25 (talk) 04:07, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
  • The bottom line here, at least from what I'm seeing, is that this critical commentary is at minimum misplaced. There may be merit to describing it somewhere in Romney's biography since he was the primary subject of discussion, but in Singer's case, there is not enough weight to consider it worthy of more than, at most, a mention in passing at this time.   — C M B J   04:12, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


"Remove POV content from a BLP"?[edit]

Would the person who made this edit please explain his or her rationale? Note that the deleted material is sourced to the New York Times and the Guardian, two sources that are likely to hold up well if their reliability is disputed. Also you might want to take a look at WP:PUBLICFIGURE. Joe Bodacious (talk) 18:47, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

While I respectfully agree that yes, the information is properly sourced to the New York Times and the Guardian, I'd have to disagree with the use of the term "vulture capitalist". Using this term is both a violation of WP:BLP and WP:NPOV. Your edits seem to put an unnecessary, negative spin on the page. A neutral point of view neither sympathizes with nor disparages its subject. By adding "vulture capitalist", the article reads much more like a tabloid rather than an encyclopedia, wouldn't you agree?
Also, nowhere in this source does it state that "Singer has said that he hopes to elect officials who will oppose government regulation of finance." I don't doubt the legitimacy behind this claim, but the article does not explicitly make this bold statement. We must be careful to not make such assumptions. Best, Meatsgains (talk) 07:54, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

::For some reason you have linked to page 2 of the NYT article. In the opening paragraphs, on page 1, it says:

Mr. Singer, professorial and soft-spoken, used a gathering of business and government leaders at the conservative Manhattan Institute to lash out at “indiscriminate attacks by political leaders against anything that moves in the world of finance.” Government efforts to “take over and run” the economy through more regulations, he warned, threatened to ruin the United States’ standing as the world leader in finance.
As the head of a $17 billion hedge fund, Mr. Singer, a self-described Barry Goldwater conservative who is 66, is using his financial might to try to change those policies. He has become one of the biggest bankrollers of Republican causes, giving more than $4 million of his money and raising millions more through fund-raisers he hosts for like-minded candidates who often share his distaste for what they view as governmental over-meddling in the financial industry.
If you would like to propose an alternate wording, I'm fine with that. But nowhere in NPOV or BLP does is say to exclude information that is deemed by an editor to be "negative." It does say that if must be properly sourced and not given undue weight. BLP says explicitly, "If an allegation or incident is noteworthy, relevant, and well documented, it belongs in the article – even if it is negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it." Here are some additional source citations on the connection of Singer to vulture funds:
Financial Times: "Mr Singer chafes at the term “vulture fund”. (Good quote, should go in article.)
Huffington Post: editorial by the foreign minister of Argentina, who says, "Paul Singer could be branded as the inventor of vulture funds." (Also should go in article.)
The Hindu
Bloomberg
Tagesschau
USA Today
Mr. Singer's connection to vulture funds ("vulture capitalist" was your term, not mine) is probably his single most notable quality. Joe Bodacious (talk) 13:21, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
The term vulture fund is a pejorative. It is a loaded word that suggests strong disapproval and is slang used by business insiders. Words or phrases such as these are in clear violation of WP:TONE. For example, the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act isn't referred to as Obamacare throughout the article because Obamacare has a negative connotation tied to it. It is the same situation. Best, Meatsgains (talk) 20:39, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
That might be an argument for putting "vulture fund" in scare quotes, but not for eliminating it from the article, for the simple reason that all the sources I provided use the term "vulture fund" (what is the term you would prefer? Is there actually any less pejorative term for this specific practice? It's no longer just for "business insiders" -- it's being debated all over the planet.) And as the Argentina crisis unfolds, you are going to see those sources multiply, and Mr. Singer is going to quickly become much better known than he presently is. Again, to quote WP:BLP, "If an allegation or incident is noteworthy, relevant, and well documented, it belongs in the article – even if it is negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it." If you like, I can move this discussion to the BLP noticeboard. But I don't think your unusual interpretation of policy will gain much traction there. Joe Bodacious (talk) 20:52, 1 July 2014 (UTC)
Yes, of course all the sources you provided call it a vulture fund because you made sure to find the sources that call it that. There are plenty of articles out there [8][9] calling NML Capital, Elliott Management, and all the others, hedge funds. (I can provide more sources, if you need me too). In this article, Newsweek calls Elliott Management a "multibillion-dollar New York hedge fund." Argentina’s president, Cristina Kirchner, is the one who calls them a "vulture fund" obviously in spite of the Supreme Court's recent ruling. It is not the source calling them a vulture fund.
There is no arguing that "vulture fund" is a pejorative. It is very misleading and does not belong on Singer's personal page. Even this article by the Huffington Post states that it "is highly misleading" Below is a quote from the article:
Although the creditors are often referred to as "vultures," the pejorative is highly misleading. They are bondholders with the law on their side, seeking nothing more than repayment of debts voluntarily entered into by Argentina. Elliot Management, for example, is a multi-billion operation that manages university endowments and pension funds.
Best, Meatsgains (talk) 09:04, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
"Hedge fund" is a far more general term, which embraces a wide array of speculative activities. If there were only one or two sources that used the term "vulture fund" to describe NML Capital, there might be an argument for exclusion, but that is not the case (WP:PUBLICFIGURE says "If you cannot find multiple reliable third-party sources documenting the allegation or incident, leave it out.) Meatgains, you are simply arguing that any commentary on Mr. Singer's activities that might be considered "negative" must be kept out of the article at all costs, and your argument does not jibe with Wikipedia policy. Therefore, I will re-add the material after I have carefully re-formulated it based on all the new sources. If you want to continue this dispute you may then revert it, and I'll take it to one of the noticeboards. Joe Bodacious (talk) 13:47, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
In this case, there are no speculative activities when using the term "hedge funds" as NML's acttions are explicitly described multiple times throughout Singer's page.
There are just as many, if not more, articles citing NML as a "hedge fund" so that argument is moot (as stated before, I can find them if you would like me to). Meatsgains (talk) 19:54, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
I think there is a basic misunderstanding here of the NPOV policy. It means that if numerous reliable sources take one view, and numerous other reliable sources take a different view, we include both views. It doesn't mean "exclude the view you don't like." Joe Bodacious (talk) 03:59, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
FYI I have opened a discussion at WP:BLPN#Paul Singer (businessman). Joe Bodacious (talk) 22:57, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

RfC: should the article Paul Singer (businessman) mention that his company has been called a vulture fund?[edit]

The weak consensus is to allow use of the term. It is weak because the context as to how the term be used was not clearly set forth in this RfC. (Is the term really "widely" used? That is a question for the EMC article.) Presumably the RfC was read with the "Purchasing sovereign debts" section in mind, but some editors !voted as if any usage of the term was acceptable simply because sources had used the term. (An example of improper usage is in the Timerman quote. His opinion piece in TheWorldPost actually says "...Singer could be branded as the inventor of vulture funds;..." and Timerman as a government official in Argentina has a dog in the default fight so his status as RS is weakened.) Other editors said "support" with conditions. Considering that the "oppose" editors correctly point out the derogatory, non-descriptive nature of the term, the section needs re-writing to avoid UNDUE use of the term least WP become a vehicle for those who have less than the highest regard for Singer. – S. Rich (talk) 01:43, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Is it appropriate under Wikipedia policy to mention that Singer's company, NML Capital Limited, is widely described as a Vulture fund in reliable sources? Joe Bodacious (talk) 17:45, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

Survey[edit]

  • Support inclusion of the term, which is widely used in reliable sources Joe Bodacious (talk) 17:48, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose The term is derogatory, not descriptive. Vulture fund is about as pejorative as the term "fat cat". It's inappropriate, see WP:ICW. Meatsgains (talk) 05:46, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Support inclusion of this well sourced material, as long as appropriate care is used in phrasing and mantaining narrative distance as was done in the most recent version and in ensuring the article reflects the proper balance of views found in reliable sources. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 06:30, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Support. The term has widespread usage and is clearly "encyclopaedic." The collection of sources using the term in relation to Singer's business is impressively large. There's no BLP violation if "negative" material is well sourced. QuiteUnusual (talk) 07:19, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Support inclusion. Many reliable sources use the term. Darx9url (talk) 07:16, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose inclusion. Singer runs a hedge fund that focuses on distressed debt - a term that can be loosely defined as the debt of companies that have filed for bankruptcy or have a significant chance of filing for bankruptcy in the near future. The term "vulture fund" is loaded and biased. If anything, I would suggest a compromise that states "singer runs a hedge fund focusing on distressed debt, whose critics have referred to as a vulture fund." Any additional mentions of the fund should refer to it as a hedge fund. Comatmebro ~Come at me~ 16:09, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
    • I could support that phrasing. If there's a direct quotation, then that's even better. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 00:28, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
      • Note that the original phrasing just before the RFC was called [10] was "NML Capital Limited, a subsidiary of Elliott described in some media reports as a "vulture fund",[ref][ref][ref]", which is not far from that suggested above, with further mentions of "vulture fund" confined to direct quotes. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 19:53, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Support My understanding is that the Huffington Post isn't necessarily reliable, New York Times and Bloomberg reveiw are definitely reliable, therefore it stays, and yes I know "Vulture Fund" is a derogatory term (I work in the financial industry), but we're here to report what reliable sources state, and they do state his is a vulture fund. Kosh Vorlon    16:59, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Weak support Only to be used in direct quotations of reliable sources, otherwise the WP:LIBEL policy may be in play. —Elipongo (Talk contribs) 05:01, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Support If reliable sources refer to the fund as a vulture fund, then it is appropriate for the article state that fact. It is in no way libelous to report the public statements of reliable sources. Jojalozzo 12:15, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Absolutely Support inasmuch as Wikipedia seeks to be encyclopedic, and more information is generally better than less provided that said information is suitably referenced and testable and verified true. Damotclese (talk) 17:45, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Support. No BLP violation as long as term is attributed to sources. — goethean 19:54, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Support - if that's how it is described then that's how it should be described here. I'd also support, though, some attribution - "x, x and x have described y as a 'Vulture Fund'." If they want to use that term then we should quote them here using that term. Should resolve some of the libel concerns. Stlwart111 05:52, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose inclusion of "vulture fund", NML Capital is a hedge fund. In order to maintain Wikipedia's "encyclopaedic" format we should be presenting facts, not opinionated and loaded terms such as "vulture fund." Fraulein451 (talk) 00:06, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Surely NML Capital is what reliable secondary sources say it is… Nomoskedasticity (talk) 07:00, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Conditional Support. Describe NML as a fund whose investment strategy includes distressed assets in its portfolio, or whatever it actually does. Also mention NML has been called a VF by x,y,z per Stalwart above. We should not lead with a perjorative description, even with attribution. This is not rocket science. Write a dispassionate and neutral description of NML first, then get into the notable opinions of NML.Two kinds of pork (talk) 07:17, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Support inclusion of the term!--Fox1942 (talk) 04:17, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Support as per Two kinds of pork above; the term is certainly pejorative, but is widely used and should be mentioned, provided a less biased description is also given. Wallace McDonald (talk) 02:33, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Support -- the term is widely used in reliable sources. It is therefore no violation of BLP to include it; on the contrary, it would be inconsistent with NPOV not to include it. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 18:17, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

Threaded discussion[edit]

The BLP policy says the following: In the case of public figures, there will be a multitude of reliable published sources, and BLPs should simply document what these sources say. If an allegation or incident is noteworthy, relevant, and well documented, it belongs in the article – even if it is negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it. If you cannot find multiple reliable third-party sources documenting the allegation or incident, leave it out. Here is a partial listing of reliable third-party sources which have describe NML Capital as a "vulture fund":

New York Times
The Guardian
Financial Times
Huffington Post
The Hindu
Bloomberg
Tagesschau
USA Today
New York Post
Forbes
Buenos Aires Herald
Lebanon Daily News
Global Post
Epoch Times

Joe Bodacious (talk) 17:53, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

I also provided a partial list of reliable third party sources calling the term "vulture fund" a misleading, derogatory, pejorative.

Vulture fund's own article states that "The term is used to criticize the fund for strategically profiting off of debtors that are in financial distress." It is non-encyclopedic and not suitable for a BLP. Meatsgains (talk) 05:59, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for your list. Under NPOV, both viewpoints should be included, in relative proportion to how they appear in reliable sources. Joe Bodacious (talk) 06:05, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Meatsgains, could you please quote the precise section of policy which you believe would be breached by including this material? Jonathan A Jones (talk) 06:32, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Adding the term vulture fund falls under the guideline list of What Wikipedia is not and "Information that falls under any guideline listed under What Wikipedia is not or several other Wikipedia guidelines and has been added to an article can be boldly removed." Adding the term vulture fund falls under the specific guideline WP:INAPPROPRIATE, which states that "Text that is intended to attack or disparage the subject. For example, if something derogatory is found in an article about a person using a pejorative term against that person's ethnicity, it shall be promptly removed." Meatsgains (talk) 10:04, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Note that WP:INAPPROPRIATE is an essay, not policy, and in any event "vulture fund" is not a "pejorative term against [a] person's ethnicity". With regard to What Wikipedia is not please identify which section you believe applies. For example, do you believe that WP:NOTCENSORED supports your position? Or are you thinking of some other section? Jonathan A Jones (talk) 10:12, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

Additional note: this topic has now been debated on this page, at the BLP noticeboard, at the Administrators' Incident noticeboard, and now once again at this RfC. It inevitably converges on the same result every time. So after this, WP:OTHERPARENT should apply. Joe Bodacious (talk) 00:53, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Essays are not policy or guidelines that must be followed, but aren't they worthy of consideration?
Criticizing an organization with an unfavorable adjective that they don't apply to themselves is inappropriate. As stated before, it is a slang term used by critics, and is again inappropriate. WP:TONE states that an article "should not be written using unintelligible argot, slang, colloquialisms, doublespeak, legalese, or jargon."
In response to Jonathan, the pejorative term about "a person's ethnicity" was an example. The quote I pulled from WP:INAPPROPRIATE states, "For example, if something derogatory is found in an article about a person using a pejorative term against that person's ethnicity, it shall be promptly removed." I wasn't asserting "vulture fund" as a pejorative term against a person's ethnicity-it was an example.
I would like to bring up another example Two Kinds of Pork's brought to the ANI, which said "...the article is about a person, so BLP does apply. If we said that Heidi Fliess ran a whorehouse instead of a bordello, that would be a BLP issue." It is the same situation. Meatsgains (talk) 17:16, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
As it says at WP:INAPPROPRIATE "This essay contains the advice or opinions of one or more Wikipedia contributors. Essays are not Wikipedia policies or guidelines. Some essays represent widespread norms; others only represent minority viewpoints." That is, the fact that somebody has stated something in a WP:ESSAY is of no particular value in determining consensus. Of course you are free to use arguments taken from essays in structuring your own argument, but that is as far as it goes.
Note further that in the section you quote "Text that is intended to attack or disparage the subject" links to the policy document WP:LIBEL, so the intended meaning is clear. Are you claiming that this material, impeccably sourced to multiple reliable sources, is libel?
With regard to the comment from Two kinds of pork, you forgot to quote the reply from Only in death does duty end, who said "Not if multiple reliable sources also called it a whorehouse", which is precisely the case here. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 20:49, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Comment I've stated no opinion on this matter, and I may not opine whatsoever. Regardless, my interest here is to see this dispute resolved amicably. I would appreciate discussion from the primary participants to be held in this discussion thread instead of the "voting" thread where the majority of the RfC participants will state their position. In other words, if you are going to respond to arguments from people who are volunteering their time and brain energy, don't bombast them with rehashed arguments and dominate the discussion. The neutral closer will no doubt understand every argument being made without having to read it as nauseum. Furthermore, I'm going to petition for an admin to close this now, so they can be prepared to make a decision when the RfC runs a course, or should they deem the consensus is rock solid towards one position or another.Two kinds of pork (talk) 02:14, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
Oh, certainly if there are two !votes from the same person above, then one should be disregarded. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 08:29, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
Edits struck through - routine. If they hadn't been responded to I would have removed them. Dougweller (talk) 10:29, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
Comment I think that this topic needs to be revisited with the recent striking of the edits included in this RfC. NinjaRobotPirate and I agreed to a possible rewording of the statement on July 18th, does anyone else feel like the way this is written needs to be reviewed again, and possibly rewritten? Comatmebro ~Come at me~ 05:14, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Changing the wording during the course of an RfC is a bad idea -- it becomes unclear how to close it, because what people expressed support or opposition for is no longer clear. I also don't agree that it's necessary here. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 05:21, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
I agree with Nomoskedasticity here: the closing admin should be able to distill a clear decision from the discussion. In fact I don't think there's much actual disagreement between those who formally list themselves as supporters and as weak opposers; see also my comment on the form of the text before the RFC. Sure people have preferences for exact wording, but I can't see many people getting really excited over that: the argument is largely over the in principle question of whether the term should be included at all, with almost everybody adopting some version of "follow the sources". Jonathan A Jones (talk) 20:01, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
I'd have to disagree. It seems users are divided into three categories on this RfC: those who support the inclusion, those who support a revised inclusion, and those who oppose inclusion. I fall under the oppose category and think the closing admin has a difficult decision to make that only becomes more difficult as the user who submitted the RfC in the first place is an accused sockpuppet. Fraulein451 (talk) 16:03, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Correction to my post above, Joe Bodacious is a confirmed sockpuppet, not an accused sock puppet.

Time for closure?[edit]

Per the suggestion of FreeRangeFrog below, is it time to request closure of this RfC? As previously discussed the RfC should if possible be closed by an uninvolved administrator. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 10:25, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

Yes, it is time for an uninvolved admin to close the RfC. It has not received activity since July 29th. Meatsgains (talk) 20:09, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


Protection[edit]

I've protected the article pending close of the RFC above. I have no opinion as to whether the term should be included in the article, however regardless of that the material being added and edit-warred over by an IP was very inappropriately worded. And as I am involved now to a certain extent, I cannot close the RFC, but someone should probably do so soon. §FreeRangeFrogcroak 19:28, 5 August 2014 (UTC)