Talk:Pedro II of Brazil

He didn't speak "Tupi-Guarani"

Tupi–Guarani is a family of ca. sixty languages. He certainly didn't speak all of them, and probably not more than one. Do we know which one he did? (Lingua geral, maybe? Old Tupi? they comment on this misuse of the term.) If not, it might should be worded "a Tupi–Guarani language". — kwami (talk) 22:44, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Unfortunately, none of the sources are clear on that. All they say is that he spoke Tupi (which means that it was certainly not the 16-18th centuries Língua Geral language). It is known that he spoke Tupi-Guarani with captured Paraguayan soldiers during the Paraguayan War and he considered the Paraguayan Tupi-Guarani (or simply Guarani) quite similar to the Brazilian Tupi-Guarani. That means that it was a language still spoken by Brazilian Indians in the 19th century. Regards, --Lecen (talk) 00:21, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

Almost certainly Old Tupi. I think that's what "Tupi" would normally refer to at that time. — kwami (talk) 04:44, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

Should names be translated?

It's quite common the anglicization os names (translation of one's native name to its English counterpart) in royalty. Nicholas II or Russa, Wilhelm I of Germany, etc... Recently a discussion in Afonso, Prince Imperial of Brazil arised over whether the same should be done with Brazilian royals or not. I will repeat here what another editors said about it: "It is not alleged in the text that the Prince is known as "Alphonso" in English; the reference is used just to indicate the correct version of his name in English, that's all".

I created a thread here since I believe that this is probably the "main" article within the Brazilian royalty universe and other editors will be able to give their opinions on this subject. --Lecen (talk) 15:40, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, to make it clear: I see no issue on simply translating the name to English. --Lecen (talk) 15:48, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

The point of adding alternative names to the lead is to present the reader with other terms for that specific individual that have been used by the individual or in reliable sources talking about that specific individual. This presents relevant information to the reader and provides alternative names that can be used in searches. The addition of a so-called "translation" is pointless and unnecessary. At best, it is trivia. At worst, it is misinformation because readers can be misled into thinking that it was a name used by that person or in the literature. Typically, modern English sources do not "translate" foreign names. The person's real name is used. For example, we don't translate Pedro Almodóvar, Pedro Álvares Cabral, etc., and Pedro is a very familiar name. It is questionable whether translations are even valid as translations because names derived from Romance languages are common in the English-speaking world, see for example Pedro Gomez (journalist), Pedro Collins, Pedro Rodriguez (NASA), etc. We should only provide alternative forms when they are in use. DrKiernan (talk) 16:39, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

I don’t see a problem with having a translation of the name. I do find it frustrating when the main title of the page has a name that is not in use or is a simple translation of the name, we had a discussion about this before, here. In this sense I do agree, I would rather have the name in the native language, like we see in modern sources. Paulista01 (talk) 01:58, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

I've provided reasons why there should not be a so-called "translation". No-one has yet provided a reason for including questionable original research, misinformation and trivia. DrKiernan (talk) 10:30, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps I wasn`t clear enough: I was talking about Brazilian royals only. I'm not talking about José Paranhos (Viscount of Rio Branco), Luís Alves de Lima e Silva (Duke of Caxias), even less any of the people mentioned above (Pedro Gomez (journalist), Pedro Collins, Pedro Rodriguez (NASA), etc...). I'm not even talking about translating surnames. How wold I translate the surname "Paranhos"? Ridiculous. Brazilian royals did not have surnames. The "Pedro de Alcantara Bibiano Leopoldo, etc..." is not his first name followed by surnames. All of them are his "first" name. Since there is a growing confusion about Portuguese/Brazilian royal names in Wikipedia since there is no standard naming (some are Anglicized, others aren't), I thought it would be a good idea. There is John VI, son of Maria I (herself daughter of Joseph I), but father or Pedro I and Miguel I. We must make it clear when is in Portuguese and when is in English to avoid unnecessary confusion. Translating the name "Pedro" to "Peter" is not original research, nor trivia and even less misinformation. I dare any Brazilian or Portuguese here to say that "Pedro" isn't the Portuguese version of the English name "Peter". In fact, if we take DrKiernan's logic in account, I wouldn't be able to use any Portuguese book as source. Anyone could claim that everytime I translate a piece of text from such book to English, it would be "original research, misinformation or trivia". Anyone could say that since there is no English translated edition, I couldn't translate it by mself or else, it would be original research. --Lecen (talk) 18:20, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

I have repeatedly stated that we can present alternate forms found in reliable sources, so if Peter II is used (which it is) then it can be included, if John VI is used (which it is) then it can be used. If, however, "Prince Imperial Alphonso" is not used, then it should not be included; if "Princess Mary Emily" is not used, then it should not be included; if "Empress Theresa Christine" is not used, then it should not be included. The latter three are original research, misinformation, confusing, trivial, and unnecessary. The issue is not one of translating texts, but of names. There is simply no need to translate names. They can be understood as they are, whereas text usually needs to be translated to be understood. We don't need to translate your name to Licinius[1] in order to understand what your name is. The same holds for Afonso, Maria Amelia and Teresa Cristina. The purpose of providing "Peter II" and "John VI" to readers is not to provide a translation; it is to provide alternative forms of the name that are found in reliable sources. DrKiernan (talk) 20:36, 1 November 2011 (UTC)