Talk:Peerage

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jump to: navigation, search
WikiProject Politics (Rated C-Class, Mid-importance)
Vote-1-.svg
Politics portal
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Politics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Mid  This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject British Royalty (Rated C-Class, Mid-priority)
BRoy.png This article is within the scope of WikiProject British Royalty (a child project of the Royalty and Nobility Work Group), an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to British Royalty on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you should visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the quality scale.
 Mid  This article has been rated as Mid-priority on the priority scale.
Former featured article Peerage is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed.
Main Page trophy This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on May 2, 2004.

Contents

[edit] Peerage and Nobility

Can someone please explain to me the overlap between the term the nobility and the term the peerage?

The term 'Peerage' is a British term referring to 'peers', i.e. Dukes, Marquesses, Earls, Viscounts, Barons and Lords of Parliament. These are the only people the 'Peerage' refers to. For example, no other member of their families is in the 'Peerage', though thay are noble. Likewise, baronets, although part of the nobility (because they are titled and inherit those titles) are not 'Peers' either.

  • What about "aristocracy" - I know what peer and noble mean, but I have read books lately that make reference to "the aristocracy" - how do they relate to the nobility? - Matthew238 05:26, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Peerage to mean all the lords and ladies is a mis-use. Peerage is a countable noun. The correct expression for the whole system is nobility. A peerage is a place in the nobility and peerages are more than one such place.

All this dicussion of titles compared to a ruler, but; in the case of a landhold, how much was each noble permitted to have, based on rank? In other words, Barons got X km of land, Jarls/Counts got X km. of land...? would it be possilbe for a tabled list to show roughly the amounts of land? Thank you. 76.170.117.217 07:54, 11 September 2007 (UTC) ISO 1806 2007-09-11 T00:54 Z-7

It wouldn't be possible to make such a list, as there was never such a system. Higher ranks, even in the early days of the Peerage, generally correspond to higher honour or importance rather than higher landholdings. It was of course common for ownership of large areas of land to make someone more important, and thus possibly cause them to be raised in rank (such as in the 19th century, when the Marquesses of Stafford and Westminster were raised to Dukedoms mainly because they were extremely rich), but there is certainly no exact correlation, and there have always existed low-ranking peers with enormous wealth (and large amounts of land) as well as high-ranking peers with hardly anything. The closest it ever got to such a system was in feudal times, with a distinction between Barons/Lords (who were essentially just holders of seats in the House of Lords) and Earls (who were associated with a particular county and received a portion of the taxes in that county). Dukes and Marquesses in this system were essentially just higher-ranking versions of Earls with the same rights (so whether someone was Duke of Norfolk or Earl of Norfolk would make no difference to how much land/money he got from Norfolk). Of course, Dukes and Marquesses often held more than one county, which would mean greater wealth, but this was by no means certain. Proteus (Talk) 09:49, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Peerage is a countable noun and ought just to be used to refer to individual titles. The collective (non-countable) noun is nobility.

[edit] worldwide view

Why is this for the United Kingdom only? Elle vécut heureuse à jamais (Be eudaimonic!) 05:02, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Only the United Kingdom has a 'Peerage', as I explained above.

Erm, not really. Historically there were a few others. See Empire of China (1915-1916). Elle vécut heureuse à jamais (Be eudaimonic!) 01:34, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

The content of this page should be moved to a more specific title. Britain is not the only country to have had a peerage. For example, Article 14 of the Japanese Constitution needs to be covered here. --Jiang 07:20, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

It's here as a primary topic. Proteus (Talk) 10:39, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

others may have a nobility, but NOT a peerage. that is a word coined in england, and if applied to china or japan, it is a bad translation only. the world view template here is grotesque. --Snottily 12:38, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

That's complete nonsense. In the first place, the term was coined in French (as pairie), and the French peerage has, I think, pride of first usage. I believe there may have been similar concepts to the House of Lords in some other countries, although I'm not sure if "Peerage" was the term used. In terms of rules in Asian countries created in the 19th or 20th centuries, there is absolutely no reason to say it's a bad translation. These peerages were modeled directly on the British model. I really do think this page should be moved to British Peerage, with Peerage covering a more international perspective. john k 13:11, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
It's tricky while I understand why you think this should be moved to British Peerage I'm also more than willing to accept that the main English language usage of the term peerage is a reference to the British Peerage. Just as wiki would leave Tony Blair or Bill Clinton as the main aricle for those names even if some fictitious micro-nation elected someone of the same name as their leader. So you could, as wiki does elsewhere, accept that this is the right place as the 'main' meaning. ( As an aside the French Peerage was an odd entity in that you could hold a title but not be a peer. Few nobles were peers - dukes being the exception and even here not always.) Alci12 14:16, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Indeed. The vast, vast majority of references to "the Peerage" or "peerage", both on Wikipedia and in normal usage, are to the subject of this article. Similarly House of Lords is not at "British House of Lords" just because there was a less important, much less well known and obsolete Irish House of Lords. Proteus (Talk) 12:55, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

The problem is that peerage in the sense used on the main page is a nonsense. It's being used as a synonym for nobility yet it's not. Many countries have nobilities, whether or not they take part ex officio in the legislature or government. England will probably become one of those countries where peers have no place in lawmaking or governing unless they are elected.

[edit] Peers as Equals in American Usage - Requires Disambiguation

Will someone please Disambiguate the term from the American usage, whereby one is tried by one's peers-meaning equals. Thanks. Yours truly, -- The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Ludvikus

We also say the same thing in the UK. I think you got it from us. Anyway, the US doesn't refer to this as "peerage", does it? So no disambiguation is needed. Marnanel 12:58, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps one should write a general article on peerage, and change the title of this one to "peerage in the UK"?

It doesn't need to be disambig'd. One is not tried by the Peerage - one is tried by one's peers. The word peer has, like many words in the English language, multiple meanings. It can mean, variously, to look intently or search for; to appear; or someone or something of equal worth, quality or standing etc. It is within the context of the last meaning that the meaning for peers, as in the peerage, is taken: those in a system of a stratus of social ranks equal to each other. There is no difference in usage between English and Americans' usage of the language. --Mal 04:23, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Australia

I've reverted the link to the Peerage of the Commonwealth of Australia because there was no such thing; for instance, the letters patent creating the Birdwood Barony, as visible in the London Gazette, declare it to be a "Barony of the United Kingdom". Further discussion at that talk page on Australian titles. Choess 03:18, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Agnatic

This article states that succession in hereditary peerages created by latters patent is usually agnatic, ie passing from elder to younger brother, even when children exist. It was my understanding that as with the monarchy, the title descended from the holder to his/her children. Can anyone confirm, or better yet, give a cite? Rojomoke (talk) 23:54, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] British focus

A peerage (as a collective term) refers to a group of nobles who have a legislative right as a result of that nobility. At the moment the article deals entirely with the British peerage. As noted above back in 2006, many other nations had similar systems, including

and so on. To limit the article to the British peerage is totally unjustified, especially as it wasn't even the first one (the French peerage was the original). I think the majority of this article should be moved to British peerage and an overview of peerages in different countries should be at this article. Many later Houses of Peers (e.g. the Prussian and Japanese) were directly based on the British model, so there is plenty of scope for a general article on how the concept spread through history. Opera hat (talk) 13:29, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Process of creating peerages

I'm interested in the process whereby a peerage is formally created. This stems from my interest in John Forrest. He's often described, even in very reputable references, as "Lord Forrest" (1st Baron Forrest of Bunbury), but as far as I can ascertain that's not correct. The decision to create the barony was made; this was communicated to the Australian Governor-General, who communicated it to Forrest. Forrest took this to mean that he was now a peer, and immediately started signing "Forrest". However, the Letters Patent had not been drawn up; and he died a short time later, still technically a commoner. I suppose we could say that the decision to elevate him was made in principle, and under normal circumstances that would have led automatically to all the technical processes involved in the creation of the barony. So we shouldn't be too critical of Forrest for jumping the gun. Plus, it was announced in the Australian press, which in my understanding normally means the person is entitled to assume the title immediately. That's certainly true for knighthoods; they're publicly announced in an Honours List months (in some cases years) before the formal investiture, but from the day of the publication they can use "Sir". But apparently in Forrest's case he should have waited for all the red tape to be formalised. So, what is that red tape - is there anything other than the writing and signing of the Letters Patent, for example - and where can I find precise details of it? -- JackofOz (talk) 11:32, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

A peerage is created when the Letters Patent pass the Great Seal and not before. Mere publication of the intent to create a peerage does not itself create a peerage, and Forrest was being premature. Another example is George Cave, 1st Viscount Cave: his resignation as Lord Chancellor and elevation to an earldom was announced on 29 March 1928, but as he died the same day he never received the higher title. (His widow was created a Countess suo jure, though.) I think there are other examples of intended recipients dying after the Letters Patent were drawn up but before the Great Seal could be affixed. 90.212.85.126 (talk) 00:30, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, that was me: forgot to log in :| Opera hat (talk) 00:31, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Explaining Numbering System

Being from continental Europe, where members of the nobility are merely numbered by name (i.e. Lothar II., as there had already been a Lothar before him), I am not quite sure I've grasped the way in which peerages are numbered. While all of these processes must be quite evident for people acquainted with the British system of peerage, they might be rather confusing for readers only familiar with continental customs. As far as I've understood, the successor to the 1st Earl X will be the 2nd Earl X and so forth, etc. If the title of peerage in question becomes extinct due to the lack of a legitimate heir, and is subsequently awarded to a new holder, would this be counted as a "2nd creation"? And would the numbering then again start at one? As numbers are fairly closely associated with the titles in British peerage, I think it would be helpful if somebody conversant in nobility issues could perhaps add a short paragraph on the matter. Trigaranus (talk) 22:35, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

You seem to have it down, basically. Each creation gets its own set of numbering. There's frequently confusion with respect to numbering medieval comital titles, where it's often uncertain exactly when there's been a new creation. I don't think that's entirely a British thing - I've seen French and Spanish nobles with numbered titles like that. john k (talk) 23:38, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Peerage"