Talk:Pelé

Pele was mostly a playmaker, not a forward

Ok, I'm sorry but for the sake of wikipedia. Let football experts or people who know something football edit the technical details. Pele was not a forward, a forward also known as enganche in spanish or meia in portuguese plays behind the two playmakers, and cannot score goals unless he dribbles past A LOT of players and finishes the play himself which pele rarely did as he only had to go past 1 or 2. A second striker is a playmaker, a forwards role is to pass, assists, move the offensive team forward, orchestrate the team. Pele was a playmaker, his main function throughout his career was to score goals which were set up by the forwards in his team, although towards the end of his career he probably did have forward functions. That is why he scored and has the world record of most goals scored, he was a playmaker.

Although he was a number 10, that number was fortituous, FIFA randomly assigned numbers back then and he ended up with the number 10. But a number 10 traditionally is a playmaker not a forward,so he's a forward.

Anyways, read this article which says Pele was a playmaker, pure playmaker and not a forward. The article is from FIFA. There are many but this is the only one I found when i looked for forward in FIFA.COM.

http://www.fifa.com/newscentre/news/newsid=76134.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.124.172.236 (talk) 19:30, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Pele was a midfielder, not a forward. He has a record in passes that resulted in goals as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.93.209.25 (talk) 06:27, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

The other 3 playmakers

In the 1970 team, there was Gerson as main playmaker or deep-lying playmaker, then Clodoaldo his partner in the double pivot who was used as an improvised defensive midfielder unless/until Gerson was man-marked (or not playing) and they'd swap, and then Rivelino who was converted into a left winger.

So you had:

Edit request from CHRTKD1, 4 September 2011

In "after football" an important piece was recently omitted from the paragraph. It stated the name of the creator of the company Prime Licensing, Jose Alves de Araujo, who created the company by the request of the long time friend Pele' himself. He sold 75% of the company to the Group Inpar. The original paragraph read: " The company Prime Licensing, created by the long time friend and fashion businessman Jose Alves de Araujo..." A professional picture of the two of them can also be added to the article if requested.

Here are some links supporting the statement:

http://www.allydirectory.com/Biographies/pele-biography/

http://googlebliss.blogspot.com/2007/06/pele-king-of-football.html

http://www.pophistorydig.com/?tag=pele-advertising

http://www.revistacafeicultura.com.br/index.php?tipo=ler&mat=8956#axzz1X1kBN4HE

http://www.huntas.com/sports/s4.htm

http://www.enotes.com/topic/Pel%C3%A9

http://peleedsonsite.in/family.html

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090227194923AA1CFjQ

http://www.peabirus.com.br/redes/form/post?post_pub_id=21904

http://www.panoramabrasil.com.br/empresa-que-detem-a-marca-pele,-fecha-negocio-milionario-id7581.html

http://www.allydirectory.com/Biographies/tag/sports/

Please search google for Jose Alves de Araujo Pele. CHRTKD1 (talk) 22:41, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

Is there any consensus for adding this information to the article? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 13:50, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

This information was originally in the article and it is more relevant since it states the origins of the company and the initiative to explore the Pele' brand at this level for the first time. The company's CEO has changed multiple times and the information is not updated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.93.209.25 (talk) 06:24, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Pelé's goals and matches

Any citation by the official source outranks any original research by anyone. Strawberry on Vanilla (talk) 16:26, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

True, citations from reliable sources alway beat original research. However, all citations from reliable sources should be considered. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:32, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Things that can be figured out through basic math does not count as OR last I checked. Besides, this isn't an issue of citations. It's a consensus issue. If the project agreed to only list domestic apps and goals, that's all that matters. I don't know why Brazilians (Pele, Romario, Rogerio Ceni, among others) like to include statistics from unofficial matches in their career totals, but no one else does. Official is all that really matters in career stats. Digirami (talk) 16:53, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

A couple of points I'd like to make, looking in on this from the outside...

Firstly, it seems that you have misunderstood what exactly the consensus is that Digirami has talked about -- it's not a consensus that Pelé only scored 589 goals, it's a consensus that the infobox should only show the domestic league numbers. Naturally, nobody is denying that Pelé scored over 1,000 goals -- we're all well aware of what is probably the most important stat in football history, nor does anyone intend to downplay the accomplishment. It's just that including friendlies and cup games is not the established precedent, and there is no reason that I can see that Pelé (or anyone else) should be granted an exception to this consensus decision without a clear indication of a change in consensus.

Secondly, these secondary, reliable sources are NOT original research: original research consists of unpublished ideas from Wikipedia editors. Nobody is doing that here -- neither you, nor Digirami. The relevant policy:

"The term "original research" (OR) is used on Wikipedia to refer to material—such as facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published source exists."

As these sources are reliable and published, their content is the very opposite of original research.

Thirdly, the infobox clearly states:

"Senior club appearances and goals counted for the domestic league only."

(Emphasis mine.) The cited source, while reliable, does NOT make it clear what the content is -- whether it is talking about all apps and goals, or the domestic league only. As this is the case, I would be very hesitant in using it; we must not personally interpret what primary sources say. From WP:OR:

"Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation."

And I believe this is what you're doing -- it's your interpretation of this source that it covers the domestic league results too, when that is not necessarily the case. Do you have any sources which prove those figures are for the domestic league, and not for all competitions? If not, I don't believe this complies with the above section of WP:OR, even though it's a reliable source. Considering we have numerous reliable, secondary sources which make it explicitly clear what his domestic league stats are, I believe we should be using those ahead of the Santos source. I understand how this must be frustrating, and I certainly don't write this simply to chastise your editing or anything like that. It's just that when I look at this situation as an uninvolved editor, and read the relevant policies and consensus decisions, this is how I believe the article should appear. Regards, Buttons to Push Buttons (talk | contribs) 19:38, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Logan, 11 September 2011

Please replace {{pp-semi-blp|small=yes}} at the top of the article with {{pp-dispute}}, as it is causing the article to show up in Category:Wikipedia pages with incorrect protection templates.

Logan _Talk ^{Contributions} 01:07, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Will do. Kuru (talk) 01:49, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Edit request - removal of early reference to knighthood.

I think the reference to him being a honorary KBE is made too soon, as if it defines him. Pele holds many titles, an KBE is but one of them. Since he is not a British citizen, has done nothing much that specifically links him to the UK, the preeminence of the title seems strange. George Bush Sr and Ronald Reagan also hold honorary British titles but, understandably, it is not the first thing you see after their name — Preceding unsigned comment added by 177.43.73.164 (talk) 19:12, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

I found this, which pretty much says the same thing: WP:POSTNOM Post-nominal initials Shortcuts: WP:INITIAL WP:POSTNOM See also: Wikipedia:Naming conventions (people)#Middle names and abbreviated names Post-nominal letters (aka honorific suffixes), other than those denoting academic degrees, should be included when they are issued by a country or widely recognizable organization with which the subject has been closely associated. Honors issued by other entities may be mentioned in the article, but should generally be omitted from the lead. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 177.43.73.164 (talk) 19:20, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Playing style

I am interested in a section highlighting Pelé's playing style. The page for Diego Maradona has such a section, so I am sure Pelé's page could use one as well. I think it would be instructive to know what skills and attributes made Pelé such an incredible (association) football/soccer player.

DaDoc540 (talk) 04:50, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 13 February 2012

Pele 15239 (talk) 12:34, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

No request made--Jac16888 ^Talk 12:43, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Honors

At the moment the section states: "A consensus of media and expert polls rank Pelé as the greatest footballer of all time.[119]". Nothing like that is stated in the source given (it only states that Pelé is one of six players mentioned in every ranking that they reviewed). It's safe to say that there is absolutely no consensus about Pelé (or anyone else) being the greatest footballer of all time. -79.188.40.77 (talk) 13:55, 8 March 2012 (UTC)