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I realise the page needs a map, a copy of the DO 'image', a bit of brushing up and possibly some formatting. I'll concentrate on linking this page to others for now, so if anyone has the time & resources, feel free. --mikaul 12:17, 16 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
oh, and this page also needs to carry the Template:wine banner which I cant seem to get to work for some reason --mikaul 12:19, 16 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
fixed the banner problem:) --mikaul 12:42, 16 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I've added maps, but it's beginning to look a bit messy - anyone help? --mikaul 18:10, 16 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Discussion moved from my Talkpage with minor edits for context.
Do you think that is early to put the section veguerie/vegueria?
When I put it, I was thinking to do two separate articles about Penedès as in other wikipedias because Penedès DO and Penedès isn't exactly the same. Penedès DO includes a part of Baix Llobregat and Alt Camp and less part of Anoia than the historical region of Penedès that includes all Alt, Baix Penedès, Garraf and the middle and southest part of Anoia (the northest part is of the historical Alta Segarra). What do you think about it? Another possibility is to separate in the same article both things.
Another reason why I put veguerie was because in Penedès are living that very deeply, you can see in lots of towns a banner in the entrance with the message "Municipi adherit a la Vegueria del Penedès" similar as the wellcome banners in cities. It is thought that won't be a veguerie because two are in one province (Barcelona) and the other part are in Tarragona and Lleida. Also is thought that will be a sotsvegueria (less than a veguerie) inside veguerie of Barcelona (àmbit metropolità).
I'm not sure there's enough of a difference from an English encyclopedia point of view to have two articles on Penedès. There was (amazingly!) none at all when I created the one we have now, and as you point out, this was to recognise the wine region. I think your approach (adding veguerie info there) is a welcome one and just needs refining into solid fact; in other words it deserve a mention now, with a fuller description once the comarcas are replaced.
I've edited the vegueria article and noticed you've used the same text to add Veguerie sections to other articles. If you want to check over my changes for factual accuracy, it might be an idea to copy/paste that into the other articles.
It's all really interesting but I confess I'm a bit confused by the new system – exactly what changes to what – and will leave that entirely up to you! I'll keep an eye on things but if you let me know when you've added something I'd be happy to check it over for grammar. mikaultalk 20:10, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I have read your changes and I like it, it's more clear (and correct I supose).
As you have said, maybe there isn't many information for doing two article but I think that we have to clarify that historical Penedès and Penedès DO isn't the same. I have done a better map for Penedès DO and two of Penedès (one whitin Catalunya and one only the four comarques. Penedès DO, three comarques plus part of four comarques.Penedès, four comarques..
In fact Vegueries don't replaced comarcas, replaced the four diputacions or provinces For example: Catalunya >> Lleida (Province) >> Alt Pirineu i Aran (Veguerie) >> Alt Urgell (Comarca) >> la Seu d'Urgell (town), if you live in Catalonia I supose you know. Province or diputacions will loose its "power" (competencies??) and will be just simbolical because we can't remove because it is spanish administration. Comarca will loose some power to give it to vegueries, but Consells Comarcals will exists too.
Historically have been lots of vegueries. But when República Catalana there was 9 but now will be 7, thats why is thought that Penedès won't be a veguerie, as Alt Ter. Jordi Ausàs (ERC) Conseller de Governació de Catalunya, has said that probably will be a sotsveguerie: Catalunya >> Barcelona (Province) >> Àmbit Metropolità (Veguerie) >> Penedès (sotsveguerie) >> Alt Penedès (Comarca) >> Vilafranca del Penedès. I know that ERC in Garraf and Alt Penedès are talking with ERC in the government reclaiming the veguerie and there's a campaing: Per una Vegueria propia.
I don't know if I have explain to you well. I've got an idea for some changes for the article:
0. Introduction of Penedès and Penedès DO
1. Penedès DO
1.2 History
1.3 Production
2. Penedès
2.1 Veguerie
3. See also
4. External links
(for the introduction I can take things of catalan wiki (Penedès DO and Penedès), spanish wiki (Penedès DO and Penedès) and the actually Penedès DO english wiki and you can correct it, if you want. It would be very helpful)--Vilarrubla (talk) 12:13, 21 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for that explanation, it's a lot clearer now. It seems to me that there are multiple issues here:
the article was always missing an explanation of the DO being a different geographical concept to the administrative area of the same name. There's a long history not accounted for here, which is maybe not relevant to an article on the DO, but should definitely be mentioned.
the recent political moves to change the administration of the area aren't properly developed on a much wider scope, ie there's no mention of veguerias in Catalonia or even History of Catalonia. I mention this only to put the inclusion of a section on the Penedès vegueria into perspective.
without wishing to confuse things further, do you think the concept of "Gran Penedès" has any bearing here? I was wondering if there was perhaps enough information there to create a new article for the administrative area, as you originally suggested. The more I look at it, the more it seems like these are quite distinct article subjects.
I did originally "raid" the Catalan and Spanish wikis for info, although I see there's more now than there was then. If you'd like to work through any recent changes and add them here, that'd be great, especially as regards the entorno, which I've been struggling to find references for.
Maps are really helpful here, given the confusion over geography, but there's not really room for four. I prefer the two you posted here – which do we need, d'you think?
I've been bold and re-arranged the sections to allow a description of the two concepts here in the Penedès DO article. Based on what I've understood here, I've put the geographical disambiguation first, incorporating the vegueria section, with climate, history and production info following. Let me know if you think this will cover the issue for now, and whether you agree that we should split out the vegueria section to a new Penedès article. Cheers, mikaultalk 11:21, 23 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
We don't have any good article of vegueries in any language. It was an old catalan administrative and decret de Nova Planta changes to spanish administratives: corregiments. Penedès was in the Vegueria de Vilafranca and later told it Vegueria de Vilafranca del Penedès or just Penedès to make difference of the Vegueria de Vilafranca de Conflent (now in the France part of Catalonia). Since 1714 doesn't existed vegueries any more since a little period in 1930-1939 (I think) and maybe the new Vegueria del Penedès won't exist, is probably that will separete in three vegueries. In the catalan article of vegueria is a little confusing for me so I don't recomend you.
In Catalan wikipedia Gran Penedès will be merge to Vegueria del Penedès are similar concepts and talk about the same territoy with the same history.
I think that your changes are good.--Vilarrubla (talk) 19:05, 23 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks :o) What do you think about starting a new Penedès article? I was also thinking of combining those two maps into one... mikaultalk 21:47, 23 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
A new article about? --Vilarrubla (talk) 12:29, 24 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Update on the wine region / admin region situation[edit]
It's been a while since the above discussion and the political situation re Penedès administration as a vegueria has moved on. Some changes made earlier this year have left the article looking less than brilliant and led me to consider re-arranging it (see draft here) but on reflection I think two articles (like Rioja and Rioja (wine), Priorat and Priorat (DOQ), etc) would be more in keeping with the style and approach of wine and geopolitical articles elsewhere. If anyone has any opinions on this shout up now, otherwise I'm planning on splitting off Penedès (DO) within the next week or so. --mikaultalk 08:44, 30 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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