Talk:Periodic table

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Mahusha[edit]

Please take into the note that why this article does not have explanation about modern periodic law.

The above unsigned comment was added by Mahusha at 10:40 am, 18 March 2015, Wednesday (UTC). A minute later, it was signed by SignBot; then nine minutes after that, the signature was first reformatted and then deleted by the original editor. YBG (talk) 06:09, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
@Mahusha:: I believe you are referring to the fact that originally the elements were arranged by atomic mass but later the atomic number proved to better predict periodic trends. YBG (talk) 06:09, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Which brings up an interesting idea[edit]

The above request makes me think of a really neat novelty PT -- just Z+Sym and below the PT a widget to adjust standard conditions. The widget could be a slider bar (or two) showing the temperature (and maybe pressure), or just a set of radio buttons with the names of various locations. When the widgets are changed, the symbols would change color to indicate the physical state of the element in the adjusted standard conditions. It would go a long way to increasing the accessibility and usability of WP to others. Unfortunately, we probably don't have enough information about the 'primordialness' of various elements elsewhere in the universe, but that deficiency might be just enough to encourage someone to sign up and start editing. YBG (talk) 16:07, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

But ... other intelligent life of course will have discovered the Elementary Periodicity, and so will have a headache/solution for the suggestion of periodicity in this one. YBG, can you compose a sequence message, to help them out? -DePiep (talk) 16:57, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
Such composition skills are pretty weak here in YBG-land -- and the visual arts aren't any better. YBG (talk) 03:40, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
No one currently has access to sources for other civilizations' formulations of the periodic table, so they could not be in the article yet. ;-) However, I really like the idea of sliders to adjust temperature and pressure – they let you present melting and boiling points without cluttering the table.
As for "primordialness": H–Mo, Ru–Nd, Sm–Bi, Th, and U must be primordial. These are all stable, or their longest-lived isotope has a half-life comparable to the age of the universe (209Bi, 1 billion times the age of the universe; 232Th, approximately the age of the universe; 238U, about 30% of the age of the universe). The others would depend on how recently their system formed after the supernovae created some of pretty much every nuclide. (If their system is old enough, primordial 244Pu – half-life about 0.6% the age of the universe – might not be present in large enough quantities there to be detected, although it just barely is on Earth!) Double sharp (talk) 13:28, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
I have no idea how one would go about implementing the sliders ... It would be very difficult to have enough data to support two sliders (temperature and pressure). But a single temp slider would only require two data points (BP+MP) per element. But it would be much easier to have radio buttons for some select locations -- say each of the nine eight planets, the sun, deep space, and maybe a couple of really extreme locations. But then that opens up another wrinkle. Anybody wanna place odds on whether we could decide on the appropriate color for the fourth state of matter in less than 420 days? YBG (talk) 06:41, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
All we need are a set of phase diagrams! :-) Naturally, the rare radioactives would get (unknown).
The only primary colour left is blue, so we might as well use that for plasmas. But you would need really high temperatures for that colour to be useful.
Do you want the sun's surface, or the core? The core would make a fairly homogeneous but also not very interesting periodic table. The surface would make everything gaseous (or maybe plasma? I'm not sure) except W and Re which are still liquids – W b.p. 6203 K (5930 °C, 10706 °F), Re b.p. 5903 K (5630 °C, 10166 °F). I mentioned the Fahrenheit values because I'm pretty sure these are some of the only really useful appearances of five-digit Fahrenheit values. Double sharp (talk) 08:03, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
OK, I've really got too much time on my hands. Here's a start at collecting the data. All of the data is ripped off from elsewhere in WP. For the planetary data, I used the surface temperatures, using a separate columns for the mercurial day and night. For the elemental data, I stripped off the references and the other extraneous columns. I suspect there are a bunch of errors, so please feel free to correct it.

Heavenly bodies[edit]

Z Sym Element Group Period Melt
K
Boil
K
Sun
5778
Mercury
100
Mercury
440
Venus
730
Earth
287
Mars
227
Jupiter
152
Saturn
134
Uranus
72
Neptune
76
 
−999  !a  !a −999 −999 −999 −999  !a  !a  !a  !a  !a  !a  !a  !a  !a  !a
1 H Hydrogen 1 1 14.01 20.28 Gas Gas Gas Gas Gas Gas Gas Gas Gas Gas
2 He Helium 18 1 0.95 4.22 Gas Gas Gas Gas Gas Gas Gas Gas Gas Gas
3 Li Lithium 1 2 453.69 1560 Gas Solid Solid Liquid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
4 Be Beryllium 2 2 1560 2742 Gas Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
5 B Boron 13 2 2349 4200 Gas Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
6 C Carbon 14 2 3800 4300 Gas Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
7 N Nitrogen 15 2 63.15 77.36 Gas Gas Gas Gas Gas Gas Gas Gas Liquid Liquid
8 O Oxygen 16 2 54.36 90.20 Gas Gas Gas Gas Gas Gas Gas Gas Liquid Liquid
9 F Fluorine 17 2 53.53 85.03 Gas Gas Gas Gas Gas Gas Gas Gas Liquid Liquid
10 Ne Neon 18 2 24.56 27.07 Gas Gas Gas Gas Gas Gas Gas Gas Gas Gas
11 Na Sodium 1 3 370.87 1156 Gas Solid Liquid Liquid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
12 Mg Magnesium 2 3 923 1363 Gas Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
13 Al Aluminium 13 3 933.47 2792 Gas Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
14 Si Silicon 14 3 1687 3538 Gas Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
15 P Phosphorus 15 3 317.30 550 Gas Solid Liquid Gas Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
16 S Sulfur 16 3 388.36 717.87 Gas Solid Liquid Gas Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
17 Cl Chlorine 17 3 171.6 239.11 Gas Solid Gas Gas Gas Liquid Solid Solid Solid Solid
18 Ar Argon 18 3 83.80 87.30 Gas Gas Gas Gas Gas Gas Gas Gas Solid Solid
19 K Potassium 1 4 336.53 1032 Gas Solid Liquid Liquid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
20 Ca Calcium 2 4 1115 1757 Gas Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
21 Sc Scandium 3 4 1814 3109 Gas Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
22 Ti Titanium 4 4 1941 3560 Gas Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
23 V Vanadium 5 4 2183 3680 Gas Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
24 Cr Chromium 6 4 2180 2944 Gas Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
25 Mn Manganese 7 4 1519 2334 Gas Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
26 Fe Iron 8 4 1811 3134 Gas Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
27 Co Cobalt 9 4 1768 3200 Gas Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
28 Ni Nickel 10 4 1728 3186 Gas Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
29 Cu Copper 11 4 1357.77 2835 Gas Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
30 Zn Zinc 12 4 692.88 1180 Gas Solid Solid Liquid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
31 Ga Gallium 13 4 302.9146 2477 Gas Solid Liquid Liquid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
32 Ge Germanium 14 4 1211.40 3106 Gas Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
33 As Arsenic 15 4 1090 887 Gas Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
34 Se Selenium 16 4 453 958 Gas Solid Solid Liquid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
35 Br Bromine 17 4 265.8 332.0 Gas Solid Gas Gas Liquid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
36 Kr Krypton 18 4 115.79 119.93 Gas Solid Gas Gas Gas Gas Gas Gas Solid Solid
37 Rb Rubidium 1 5 312.46 961 Gas Solid Liquid Liquid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
38 Sr Strontium 2 5 1050 1655 Gas Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
39 Y Yttrium 3 5 1799 3609 Gas Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
40 Zr Zirconium 4 5 2128 4682 Gas Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
41 Nb Niobium 5 5 2750 5017 Gas Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
42 Mo Molybdenum 6 5 2896 4912 Gas Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
43 Tc Technetium 7 5 2430 4538 Gas Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
44 Ru Ruthenium 8 5 2607 4423 Gas Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
45 Rh Rhodium 9 5 2237 3968 Gas Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
46 Pd Palladium 10 5 1828.05 3236 Gas Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
47 Ag Silver 11 5 1234.93 2435 Gas Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
48 Cd Cadmium 12 5 594.22 1040 Gas Solid Solid Liquid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
49 In Indium 13 5 429.75 2345 Gas Solid Liquid Liquid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
50 Sn Tin 14 5 505.08 2875 Gas Solid Solid Liquid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
51 Sb Antimony 15 5 903.78 1860 Gas Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
52 Te Tellurium 16 5 722.66 1261 Gas Solid Solid Liquid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
53 I Iodine 17 5 386.85 457.4 Gas Solid Liquid Gas Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
54 Xe Xenon 18 5 161.4 165.03 Gas Solid Gas Gas Gas Gas Solid Solid Solid Solid
55 Cs Caesium 1 6 301.59 944 Gas Solid Liquid Liquid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
56 Ba Barium 2 6 1000 2170 Gas Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
57 La Lanthanum 6 1193 3737 Gas Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
58 Ce Cerium 6 1068 3716 Gas Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
59 Pr Praseodymium 6 1208 3793 Gas Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
60 Nd Neodymium 6 1297 3347 Gas Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
61 Pm Promethium 6 1315 3273 Gas Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
62 Sm Samarium 6 1345 2067 Gas Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
63 Eu Europium 6 1099 1802 Gas Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
64 Gd Gadolinium 6 1585 3546 Gas Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
65 Tb Terbium 6 1629 3503 Gas Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
66 Dy Dysprosium 6 1680 2840 Gas Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
67 Ho Holmium 6 1734 2993 Gas Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
68 Er Erbium 6 1802 3141 Gas Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
69 Tm Thulium 6 1818 2223 Gas Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
70 Yb Ytterbium 6 1097 1469 Gas Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
71 Lu Lutetium 3 6 1925 3675 Gas Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
72 Hf Hafnium 4 6 2506 4876 Gas Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
73 Ta Tantalum 5 6 3290 5731 Gas Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
74 W Tungsten 6 6 3695 5828 Liquid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
75 Re Rhenium 7 6 3459 5869 Liquid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
76 Os Osmium 8 6 3306 5285 Gas Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
77 Ir Iridium 9 6 2719 4701 Gas Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
78 Pt Platinum 10 6 2041.4 4098 Gas Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
79 Au Gold 11 6 1337.33 3129 Gas Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
80 Hg Mercury 12 6 234.43 629.88 Gas Solid Liquid Gas Liquid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
81 Tl Thallium 13 6 577 1746 Gas Solid Solid Liquid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
82 Pb Lead 14 6 600.61 2022 Gas Solid Solid Liquid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
83 Bi Bismuth 15 6 544.7 1837 Gas Solid Solid Liquid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
84 Po Polonium 16 6 527 1235 Gas Solid Solid Liquid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
85 At Astatine 17 6 575 610 Gas Solid Solid Gas Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
86 Rn Radon 18 6 202 211.3 Gas Solid Gas Gas Gas Gas Solid Solid Solid Solid
87 Fr Francium 1 7 300 950 Gas Solid Liquid Liquid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
88 Ra Radium 2 7 973 2010 Gas Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
89 Ac Actinium 7 1323 3471 Gas Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
90 Th Thorium 7 2115 5061 Gas Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
91 Pa Protactinium 7 1841 4300 Gas Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
92 U Uranium 7 1405.3 4404 Gas Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
93 Np Neptunium 7 917 4273 Gas Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
94 Pu Plutonium 7 912.5 3501 Gas Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
95 Am Americium 7 1449 2880 Gas Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
96 Cm Curium 7 1613 3383 Gas Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
97 Bk Berkelium 7 1259 2900 Gas Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
98 Cf Californium 7 1173 1743 Gas Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
99 Es Einsteinium 7 1133 1269 Gas Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
100 Fm Fermium 7 1125 -- Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
101 Md Mendelevium 7 1100 - Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
102 No Nobelium 7 1100 - Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
103 Lr Lawrencium 3 7 1900 - Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
104 Rf Rutherfordium 4 7 2400 5800 Liquid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
105 Db Dubnium 5 7 - - - - - - - - - -
106 Sg Seaborgium 6 7 - - - - - - - - - -
107 Bh Bohrium 7 7 - - - - - - - - - -
108 Hs Hassium 8 7 - - - - - - - - - -
109 Mt Meitnerium 9 7 - - - - - - - - - -
110 Ds Darmstadtium 10 7 - - - - - - - - - -
111 Rg Roentgenium 11 7 - - - - - - - - - -
112 Cn Copernicium 12 7 357 Gas - Gas Gas - - - - - -
113 Uut Ununtrium 13 7 700 1400 Gas Solid Solid Liquid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
114 Fl Flerovium 14 7 340 420 Gas Solid Gas Gas Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
115 Uup Ununpentium 15 7 700 1400 Gas Solid Solid Liquid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
116 Lv Livermorium 16 7 708.5 1085 Gas Solid Solid Liquid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
117 Uus Ununseptium 17 7 673 823 Gas Solid Solid Liquid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
118 Uuo Ununoctium 18 7 258 263 Gas Solid Gas Gas Gas Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
BP = Sun 5778 BP -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
BP = Venus 730 Gas -- -- BP -- -- -- -- -- --
BP = Mercury (day) 440 Gas -- BP Gas -- -- -- -- -- --
BP = Earth 287 Gas -- Gas Gas BP -- -- -- -- --
BP = Mars 227 Gas -- Gas Gas Gas BP -- -- -- --
BP = Jupiter 152 Gas -- Gas Gas Gas Gas BP -- -- --
BP = Saturn 134 Gas -- Gas Gas Gas Gas Gas BP -- --
BP = Mercury (night) 100 Gas BP Gas Gas Gas Gas Gas Gas -- --
BP = Neptune 76 Gas Gas Gas Gas Gas Gas Gas Gas -- BP
BP = Uranus 72 Gas Gas Gas Gas Gas Gas Gas Gas BP Gas
MP = Sun 5778 MP Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
MP = Venus 730 -- Solid Solid MP Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
MP = Mercury (day) 440 -- Solid MP -- Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
MP = Earth 287 -- Solid -- -- MP Solid Solid Solid Solid Solid
MP = Mars 227 -- Solid -- -- -- MP Solid Solid Solid Solid
MP = Jupiter 152 -- Solid -- -- -- -- MP Solid Solid Solid
MP = Saturn 134 -- Solid -- -- -- -- -- MP Solid Solid
MP = Mercury (night) 100 -- MP -- -- -- -- -- -- Solid Solid
MP = Neptune 76 -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- Solid MP
MP = Uranus 72 -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- MP --
9e99 ~z ~z 9e99 9e99 9e99 9e99~z ~z ~z ~z ~z ~z ~z ~z ~z ~z ~z
Cheers! YBG (talk) 09:28, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

Re heavenly bodies[edit]

I've made some corrections and, to facilitate checking, added extra rows at the end with pseudo-elements whose MP or BP is equal to the each temperature. I verified the "Solid" entries by sorting on MP and then searching for "Solid" so it is highlighted everywhere. Similarly, I verified the "Gas" entries by sorting by BP and searching for "Gas". Try it, you can see how the errors jumped right out! I'm pretty confident the "Solid" and "Gas" entries are all OK. The "Liquid" and unknown ("-") entries still need to be verified. YBG (talk) 10:38, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

I have seen no slider at WP working this way. It could be made into a gif animation (one image per planet/sun). Nice to know that Rf is liquid on the sun ;-) . -DePiep (talk) 10:42, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
<funny notes>Amusing: Mercury at Mercury. </funny notes> -DePiep (talk) 11:16, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
It looks like some of the data here doesn't correspond with the articles – the W article gives boiling point 6203 K, but here it is 5828 K, for example. Double sharp (talk) 01:22, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
Yea, I noticed that myself; I decided to ignore the articles and just use the data from #Planets in List of gravitationally rounded objects of the Solar System. For example, in that chart, the mean surface temp of Mercury is listed as "440–100", but in Mercury (planet), it says "ranging from 100K at night to 700K during the day at some equatorial regions" -- and then the infobox has SIX different temps: a min, mean and max at two different locations. That discrepancy can easily be explained due to Mercury's great variation; I suspect that the other locations probably have similar explanations if you dig a bit differently. If there are any discrepancies we can't easily explain, we could ping them over at WP:Astronomy. Let them mess with their Mercury, and we'll mess with our Mercury. YBG (talk) 03:48, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
And about the slider -- yea, I'm not sure there's a way to have interactive widgets in WP; I think sortable tables is as interactive as it gets (though I suppose editing is pretty interactive). Anyway, I think the best way to do it is to make a version of {{Element cell}} that takes a temperature parameter, then make a version of {{Periodic table}} that also takes a temperature parameter and passes it along to the each individual cell. Finally, make a page that displays multiple versions of the PT. Now if there was just a way to make it so that only one version was showing at a time. YBG (talk) 04:17, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
Perhaps a gif that shows the periodic table, looping from 0 K to around 6250 K? To be clearer the phase colour can be a background colour, so that the cell size can be reduced even further. Double sharp (talk) 15:27, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

There's a temperature slider that indicates solid/liquid/gas phase for the elements at http://www.ptable.com/#Writeup/Wikipedia using normal (1 atm) boiling and melting points. As for the planets, I wouldn't even pretend to do anything for gas giants. Well-defined mean surface temperatures and pressures are meaningless there, so the data would be meaningless. For the inner planets, Double Sharp's comment about phase diagrams is apt. For example, the table above shows sulfur as a gas on Venus using melting and boiling points at 1 atm, but a quick googling of the phase diagram for sulfur shows that sulfur would actually be a liquid on Venus because of the high pressure (~92 atm). A single periodic table using mean T and P for us and our nearest neighbors showing the state of elements on Venus, Earth, and Mars is definitely doable. As for Mercury (the planet), liquids could never exist there because the almost total lack of pressure is below the triple point of any element. Whether certain solid elements would sublimate at Mercury's T and P is tricky and interesting. Extending the Clausius Clapeyron equation (or a graphical equivalent like the ones at [1] and [2]) down to the 10^-15 atm value that's cited by NASA at [3] would give answers for the temperatures on the hot and cold sides. But the hot and cold sides probably have different pressures also due to the differing impact of solar weather on the teensy amount of pressure. The time required for sublimation of a rock-sized solid or even a solid the size of a grain of sand to take place in a closed container at Mercury's T and P might be greater than a lifetime (I don't know.), so Mercury data might also mislead the reader about what would actually happen. I hope someone considers creating a Venus/Earth/Mars table. A single table could indicate the small number of elements that would be different on each planet. I haven't seen it before Flying Jazz (talk) 23:01, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

This is very cool. Thank you for posting it. YBG (talk) 05:02, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 December 2014[edit]

Please change 1 to 119

117.201.23.241 (talk) 01:58, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

Not until another element (probably 119 or 120) has been discovered and the discovery has been reported by reliable sources. Double sharp (talk) 03:40, 28 December 2014 (UTC)
To 117.201.23.241: This is a long article. Please identify the exact sentence which you think needs changing. Perhaps Double Sharp did not understand where the change should be made - I certainly do not understand where.Dirac66 (talk) 04:23, 28 December 2014 (UTC)
@Dirac66: I took what I imagined to be the most plausible interpretation, as the article's usage of "1" is mostly for the group or period, where the number 119 makes even less sense. As an atomic number, as in the lede, it would make some sense. But you're right – this request isn't very clear... Double sharp (talk) 12:10, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

Po: atomic weight[edit]

see [4], question by IP: "What is the atomic weight of polonium? Is it (209) or (210) as indicated periodic table?" (copy/pasted here -DePiep (talk) 18:30, 21 February 2015 (UTC))

Per Isotopes of polonium, 210 is the longest-lived isotope known, but 209 is longest-lived among naturally-occurring ones. What are some wikipedia pages/templates that have the full table (with masses), and what do they say about the meaning of values being in parenthesis? DMacks (talk) 20:38, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
Let me notify the IP: @105.232.155.248:. -DePiep (talk) 20:47, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
@DMacks: I think you've misread the table at isotopes of polonium. The half-life of 209Po is listed in "a", that is years; so its half-life is just over a century and a quarter. However the half-life of 210Po is listed in "d", so its half-life is only about four and a half months! So 209Po is the longest-lived isotope known and thus the value listed in the PT should be "[209]". Double sharp (talk) 08:27, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
I suppose it is an SI convention to use 'a' for 'annum', so we probably can't use 'y' even though this is en.wikipedia.org not la.wikipedia.org. At the very least, it should be wikilinked or marked with {{abbr}}. YBG (talk) 01:42, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
*gah* yeah, bad misreading. And worse, "d" and "a" look not-very-distinct on several of my monitors too:( DMacks (talk) 03:10, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
Wonder if these tables can be made sortable. So one could order by halflife or decay-mode, for example. DMacks (talk) 03:13, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
Sorting can be done, but it won't be real easy. Check out Help:Sorting. Seems to me that the sort key should first be the unit of measure in magnitude order, then the number. I can think of some of the almost limitless ways to do it. Probably worth thinking about and then coming up with a straw man to discuss. YBG (talk) 03:53, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
Some of the "Isotopes of..." data tables are just plain text, while others use a the {{val}} template. I'm working on improving or wrapping that to generate a sort-key automatically. We'd only have to pass a parameter saying what unit to use (arbitrarily choosing among seconds, days, years, etc) and all values would be compared for purposes of sorting via conversion to that unified unit. DMacks (talk) 13:27, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
The unified unit should be the second which is the recognized SI unit of time. Long half-lives in years are often converted to seconds, but no one converts short half-lives in seconds to years (or nanoyears).
And I don't see the atomic weight of Po on the tables in this article, either 209 or 210. Perhaps the IP was referring to a printed periodic table in some book? Dirac66 (talk) 14:00, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
I hope long half-lives will be displayed in common time units like days or years and not in not in ks, Ms, or Gs. YBG (talk) 15:48, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
The whole context here is how to handle them in a consistent hidden detail for purposes of sorting, and it therefore makes no difference (within the limit of wiki's math precision) which one that is, and which is also unrelated to whatever units are best for each entry's display. DMacks (talk) 16:32, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Thanks for the clarification. I gather that you are thinking of a form like one of these:

1. {{ sort | {{nts|value-in-seconds}} | <value-in-unit> {{abbr|abbr-of-unit|name-of-unit}} }}
2. data-sort-value="value-in-seconds" | <value-in-unit> {{abbr|abbr-of-unit|name-of-unit}}

Another alternative to consider is this one

3. {{sort|{{nts|unit-order-code}}|}} {{nts|value-in-unit}} {{abbr|abbr-of-unit|<name-of-unit}}

where the following notation is used:

  • abbr-of-unit: y, d, h, min, s, ms, µs, ns
  • name-of-unit: year, day, hour, minute, second, …
  • unit-order-code: 4, 3, 2, 1, 0, -1, -2, -3, -4 respectively
  • value-in-unit: the value of the halflife in the specified unit
  • value-in-seconds: the value of the halflife in seconds

The alternative form has some advantages and disadvantages:

  • Advantage: It does not require maintaining two different values, value-in-unit and value-in-seconds
  • Disadvantage: It will break if the units are used inconsistently, e.g., 1 y will sort as greater than 400 d

Also, note that [[name-of-unit|abbr-of-unit]] could be used instead of {{abbr|abbr-of-unit|<name-of-unit}}.

It doesn't really matter to me which way it is done -- my preferences would would be relevant if I were doing the heavy lifting. But I did want to explain the alternatives sufficiently so that if the heavy-lifter can consider an alternative. YBG (talk) 02:11, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Ah yes, that makes sense to consider the magnitude first. What I'm contemplating is to have value-in-seconds be automatically calculated from value-in-unit abbr-of-unit rather than be a separate manually-maintained value entered in the table. So there would be (from the wiki page as editors handle it) nothing more than now, except the name of the template that does the sortability magic as a wrapper around the value+unit data. DMacks (talk) 14:49, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
Dropping a suggestion (or distraction ;-) ). To get sortnumber added from regular value input. See /doc Convert#Time units: Module:convert can read all |number|unit|second|disp=number inputs into seconds, and return the plain number-in-seconds only. That plain number to be fed to (=nested in) {{nts}} to produce sortable code. All from a single article-editor number-space-unit input (restrictions might apply). Issue: number-unit separator is space in regular input, but Convert requires a pipe. Too fast or clear enough? -DePiep (talk) 15:39, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
{{convert}} tends to output scientific notation, which breaks numerical sorting because the exponent is not seen. But it does have a separate flag for emitting what we need (the raw value, no exponent problem) already specifically tagged as the hidden table-sort token. Which I only found yesterday after spending an hour re-implementing it via {{val}}. One problem is that neither "y" nor "a" are recognized as a unit of "years". Can we live with "yr", or is that too far from SI for scientific data table? It would be easy to have a special template for the isotope tables that takes "y"/"a" and convert it to "yr" (and does whatever other parsing is needed for this specific setup) for passing to underlying format/conversion templates. DMacks (talk) 16:22, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
About y/a/yr: best ask at template talk:Convert, Johnuniq (module editor) knows why it can/cannot be added as a unit.
About |sortable=: correct, table sortkey adding is available. To solve: requires |disp=table so we can't use |disp= again to prevent the second (2nd, converted, pun) column showing. Needs another look, not yet discarded. -DePiep (talk) 18:02, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── The function of disp=table seems only to be placing the units in a separate column from the value (sortable=on alone is what appears to control output of the sortkey). We don't need that multicolumn feature here, so we can use that parameter to control the output components, such as disp=out with the output units be the same as the input. Not sure Module:convert knows this should short-circuit the actual conversion math. Wiki editors' cost is only having to write the unit twice). DMacks (talk) 18:35, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

From here, I would need to go playing with it but I lack the time. About the cost: ahum, the article editor would like to input {{our timesortable template|number-space-timeunit}}, right? That's the goal. As said, I have no time to try development in this. I'm gone, you can ping me. -DePiep (talk) 18:42, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
Right. I was thinking for cost if we relied solely on {{convert}} and/or {{val}} rather than a customized wrapper for them. We need the sortability feature of convert and the formatting of val. Customize wrapper seems like the way to go (at least for an initial test) until/unless the underlying ones become more unified or featureful. Another complication: {{convert|...|sortable=on}} appears to generate the sort-key based on the original value not the converted result--is that a bug?--so we would need to convert to a unified unit first with that template and then feed that result back to another invocation whose actual output (values/units) are completely hidden to get the unified sort-key. DMacks (talk) 16:31, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
I see. The module:Convert is very good in: accepting number formats, recognise units, combined units, prefixes (both symbol and name), calculate that smart sortnumber. It is not good in: return isolated results (eg, that sortnumber only), add table formatting. (btw, the input number usually returned as-is, unchanged). In my description convert-calls are hidden from the article editor. It is only used to get the plain time-quantity-in-seconds number (from any time-unit-input), the core & good {convert} trick. That seconds-number is fed into a sortkey-creator (like {nts}). The value+unit shown can be exactly the editor's input. Could work, is not very elegant. What Jimp writes, below, is about the sortvalue calculated by convert, my setup does not use that. -DePiep (talk) 07:36, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Exploring the {Convert} option[edit]

For what it's worth, now that Jimp has given a more elegant option by [[#Exploring the {Val} option]] below. I have created {{Interval ts}}, with {{Interval ts/testcases}}. Don't think this needs much further attention. I'll leave it there for a while. -DePiep (talk) 09:29, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

I had actually thought of something along those lines but we're going to run into problems with this since {{convert| ... |s|disp=number}} gives scientific notation outside the 100 μs – 1 Gs range.
{{convert|32|yr|s|disp=number}} → 1.0×109
{{convert|99|us|s|disp=number}} → 9.9×10−5
Feed that into {{ntsh}} and we don't end up with something too pretty.
{{interval ts|32|yr|s|disp=number}}Template:Interval ts
{{interval ts|99|us|s|disp=number}}Template:Interval ts
Jimp 10:42, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
{Val} already won. It was an issue that was to be researched, but let's save time: todonever mind. -DePiep (talk) 14:20, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Exploring the {Val} option[edit]

"Another complication: {{convert|...|sortable=on}} appears to generate the sort-key based on the original value not the converted result--is that a bug?" Yeah, it's sort of a bug. The work-around is |sortable=out but I see this as being far inferior to a notion put forth a few weeks ago at {{convert}}'s talk page, i.e. basing sort keys on SI base units. This seems to me to be the best option and is the option now taken by {{val}}. Half-lives, for example, are converted to seconds and the number of seconds is used to create a hidden sort key using {{ntsh}}. The unit part of the sort key is currently based on the old {{convert}} subtemplates (so it won't cover anything added to the module since the template went Lua); however, units not covered by the old {{convert}} can be added to {{val/sortkey}}. I hope this is useful. Jimp 07:11, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

So, for this limited goal (dimension is time only, and we may require SI units for input, reduced number input formats), we could calculate the quantity into seconds using {convert} module, and enter that number into {{ntsh}} to return the sortkey. The visible text returned can be the input I guess. Would not need {val} this way (unless the input number format is not recognised by {convert}. Is {Val} better for this, covering more scientific forms?). -DePiep (talk) 07:53, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
I'd say {{val}} is the template for this as we're not displaying any conversion. {{Val}}'s purpose is to display a number or value without conversion but with all the sciency bells and whistles (scientific notation, uncertainties, etc.) that you might want. All that was needed was a sort key for {{val}}. That's been added (and not just for time). So, just chuck your number or value into {{val}} and the template has it sorted. Jimp 08:54, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
({Val}-demo by Jimp:)
{|class="wikitable sortable"
!half life
|-
|{{val|12.3|(4)|u=d}}
|-
|{{val|67.93|(23)|u=ns}}
|-
|{{val|37.12|u=s}}
|-
|{{val|2.53|(12)|ul=a}}
|-
|{{val|23.54|(90)|u=us}}
|-
|{{val|7.34|(29)|u=wk}}
|-
|{{val|83|u=Ma}}
|-
|{{val|12.5|(12)|u=s}}
|-
|{{val|2.5|e=3|u=d}}
|-
|{{val|5|u=decades}}
|-
|{{val|9|u=centuries}}
|}
      gives      
half life
12.3(4) d
67.93(23) ns
37.12 s
2.53(12) a
23.54(90) µs
7.34(29) wk
83 Ma
12.5(12) s
2.5×103 d
5 decades
9 centuries
aha. I hadn't noticed that the sortkey was added to {Val}. -DePiep (talk) 09:22, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
It's my fault for rambling on too much. Jimp 09:38, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
No, it's great! (didn't see it was added always, in its initial setup today. It was not even documented ;-). etc.). I have nothing important to add. (minor: as you wrote, we'd like to ditch old {convert/...} some day). -DePiep (talk) 09:53, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
We would but I suppose it can come in handy occasionally. Jimp 10:22, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
Looks great. Any way to use a or a? ([[year|a]] or {{abbr|a|year}}) or something similar? YBG (talk) 18:11, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
To link a unit: use |ul=. See {{val|2.53|(12)|ul=a}} in the demo table above. Don't know about {{abbr}}. -DePiep (talk) 18:57, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
Let's not forget: this table was the original target ;-) -DePiep (talk) 19:08, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
Unfortunately, {{val|2.53|(12)|ul=a}} renders as 2.53(12) a with a hyperlink to Hectare#Are, which isn't exactly what we had in mind. YBG (talk) 21:43, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
Turns out {{val|2.53|(12)|ul=yr}} (2.53(12) yr) and {{val|2.53|(12)|ul=y}} (2.53(12) y) produce working wikilinks, but then if you use 'y' or'yr', the wikilink may not actually be necessary. Probably should double-check the sorting also. YBG (talk) 21:52, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
I say: {Val} should use 1. MOS, 2. SI, 3. {Convert}. -DePiep (talk) 21:49, 11 April 2015 (UTC)