Talk:Peter O'Toole

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
          This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
WikiProject Biography / Actors and Filmmakers (Rated C-class)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by WikiProject Actors and Filmmakers (marked as High-importance).
 

This article has comments here.

WikiProject Theatre (Rated C-class, Mid-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is part of WikiProject Theatre, a WikiProject dedicated to coverage of theatre on Wikipedia.
To participate: Feel free to edit the article attached to this page, join up at the project page, or contribute to the project discussion.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Mid  This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
 

This article has comments here.

WikiProject England (Rated C-class, High-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject England, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of England on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
 High  This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Ireland (Rated C-class, High-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ireland, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Ireland on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
 High  This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
 

This article has comments here.

Wikipedia Version 1.0 Editorial Team
WikiProject icon This article has been reviewed by the Version 1.0 Editorial Team.
Taskforce icon
This article does not currently meet the quality requirements for the Version 0.7 offline release. It is not currently being considered for later releases, as outlined in the notes left here. Please help improve this article if you can, and renominate after improvements have been made.
 
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the quality scale.
WikiProject Yorkshire (Rated C-class, Mid-importance)
WikiProject icon Peter O'Toole is within the scope of WikiProject Yorkshire, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Yorkshire on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can visit the project page, where you can join the project, see a list of open tasks, and join in discussions on the project's talk page.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Mid  This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
 

This article has comments here.

This article has an assessment summary page.

Nationality[edit]

Nationality needs to be changed, actor is Irish, not British. Reference 4 cites actor as Irish— Preceding unsigned comment added by Jnf1121 (talkcontribs) 12:51, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

There are two possibilities - either he was born in Leeds to an Irish father and Scottish mother, in which case he would acquire British nationality at birth through his mother but could later claim Irish citizenship if he wanted to through his father, or he was born in Connemara, which in 1932 was in the Irish Free State, to an Irish father and Scottish mother in which case he would still be a British subject by birth. I've no idea whether he ever claimed Irish citizenship and he himself said he didn't know where he was born but wherever it was he would have acquired British nationality. Haldraper (talk) 13:55, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
Numerous sources including himself and the international media and Hollywood consider himself Irish, his country of origin is Irish, end of discussion. ÓCorcráin (talk) 14:20, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
Also Haldraper, if you make such disruptive edits again and remove reliable sources and insert unsourced material instead you will be reported and blocked, and your block history shows it. ÓCorcráin (talk) 14:24, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

End of discussion? He himself didn't know where he was born. How you or anyone else can confidently assert his country of origin was Ireland when he apparently had birth certificates for Connemara and Leeds is beyond me. Haldraper (talk) 14:27, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

Not only does the world consider himself him Irish, but Peter O'Toole himself identified as Irish and not British or English, but he was a British citizen and that is mentioned in the article, so lets just leave it at that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tyrsóg (talkcontribs) 14:39, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
"but Peter O'Toole himself identified as Irish and not British or English" -- any quotes to back that up? Quis separabit? 21:53, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

According to this, he held an Irish passport so whether his citizenship was acquired by birth or through his father his nationality as you say was Irish. Haldraper (talk) 15:10, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

He may have held an Irish passport but that does not negate his dual citizenship unless he expressly renounced his British nationality, which no one has indicated he ever did. Quis separabit? 21:53, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
Editors such as Tyrsóg need to be very careful with throwing around phrases like 'vandalism' and 'disruptive editing'. Span (talk) 15:35, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
As has been pointed out with sources, he seemed to consider himself Irish & held dual citizenship. So I think it's fairly represented now. --Somchai Sun (talk) 16:30, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
"held dual citizenship" -- yet not in the article lede because some editors don't like that? Quis separabit? 21:53, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
NOW (after an absence of some days), I will ask: Why is Tyrsóg also known as ÓCorcráin allowed to get away with removing all references to O'Toole's British citizenship and nationality. Anyone who uses "end of discussion" should be blocked for 31 hours just for that offense, IMO. It is ridiculous that no other editors have seen fit to point out the conundrum of a man (O'Toole) with two birth certificates (from two different countries; but I am pretty sure I know which is the fraudulent one) yet has only one nationality in the article lede, and not the nationality of the country in which he was born, raised, educated, served in the military, worked and died. Amazing how all this is wiped out by one POV-pushing editor's fiat. This is bull. Quis separabit? 21:53, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
The hypocrisy regarding this issue contrast with the cases of Maria Aitken, Jonathan Aitken, Joyce Redman and others born in the 26 counties after 1922, but who are/were British. If O'Toole claimed an Irish passport late in life it is irrelevant to his other categorizations, although notable that he left Britain, not the Republic of Ireland, to pay for his geriatric medical care costs. Quis separabit? 18:01, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
It was actually my idea to include his British citizenship into the infobox, so next time before you accuse me of POV pushing do your homework first instead of mouthing off like a twit, and you keep ignoring the fact that O'Toole identified himself as an Irish man not British, one's ethnic identity and nationality are completely different from citizenship, anyone with a couple of brain cells would know that. You have a block log a mile long and now I can see why, but I cannot understand why you have not been indefinitely blocked. You better take a step backwards and relax before you hang yourself with your personal abuse and get blocked. (again) ÓCorcráin (talk) 20:43, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
I never said that adding his dual citizenship to the lede was a bad idea. I think it's fine. I think his personal preference for being described as Irish should be reflected though, as it is on Daniel Day-Lewis. Also, what? Maria Aitken? She just happened to be born in Ireland to ex-pat parents, like my father (Cyprus though). --Somchai Sun (talk) 20:04, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
Well, O'Toole's Scottish mother was (apparently briefly) a UK ex-pat in the Irish Free State (the correct term). The siblings Maria and Jonathan Aitekn are still eligible to hold Irish citizenship if they chose -- as far as I know -- based upon where/when they were born. I don't know about Cyprus. Quis separabit? 23:25, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
First of all, why doesn't someone involved in this partisan bickering explain here the difference between "nationality" and "citizenship". Second, the infobox cites his allegedly dual citizenship (show me his Irish passport) and the categories refer to him as an "English" film, stage, television, et al actor, I fail to see why there is this continuing disagreement. I seriously recommend that partisan editors also read the section below ("Questions to Tyrsóg aka ÓCorcráin"). Quis separabit? 18:10, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
O'Toole was probably born in England, and was certainly brought up in England. He was accordingly to normal usage English or British. Ethnically and culturally he may have been Irish - or more accurately half-Irish. But he should be recorded as a British actor.Royalcourtier (talk) 07:36, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

Questions to Tyrsóg aka ÓCorcráin[edit]

"You have a block log a mile long and now I can see why, but I cannot understand why you have not been indefinitely blocked. You better take a step backwards and relax before you hang yourself with your personal abuse and get blocked." -- I am not committing any personal abuse here; I am standing up for what I believe is right. You sound disgruntled -- is that because you can't have your way? Quis separabit? 21:32, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
"and you keep ignoring the fact that O'Toole identified himself as an Irish man not British" -- first of all at what age did he begin to identify as Irish; after serving with the Royal Navy? And when did he ever legally or even informally discard all of his British identity and citizenship? When did he ever say: "I am not British, I am Irish."? He had no problems relying on the NHS when he was battling cancer or in his last years when he settled in London, not Dublin or Cork or Tralee or Connemara. And what about his his Scottish mother; did he discard her as well? Quis separabit? 21:32, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
"It was actually my idea to include his British citizenship into the infobox." -- don't know about that but it would have been added anyway, so you can stop slapping yourself on your own back.When I was referring to "jingoism" (above), I was explicitly referring to Irish nationalist media that were attempting to do in their domain what you are trying to do here. Quis separabit? 21:32, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
"anyone with a couple of brain cells would know that. " -- outright insult. I'll allow you that one, Tyrsóg, as you do not know how to lose, but any future insults will see me lodge a complaint at ANI. Quis separabit? 23:32, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
And finally, if what you are interested in is the exact, precise "truth" as you see it, then I suggest restoring my original lede version of O'Toole's complicated nationalisms, which perfectly captures, philosophically and chronologically, the "truth" in a narrative which is objective:

British-born and educated actor of Irish and Scottish descent, who acquired Irish nationality later in life.

Respectfully submitted for consensus. Quis separabit? 21:59, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
Respectfully request you remove any mention of ethnicity as it is clearly a violation of the MOS. It doesn't add anything to the lead. Now, I can't see this being resolved any time soon, and it's Christmas so...Merry Nollag to you all and see you in the new year. --Somchai Sun (talk) 22:47, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
If you are referring to the suggested phrasing British-born and educated actor of Irish and Scottish descent, who acquired Irish nationality later in life, then you should know it was already rewritten in the article lede a while ago by Haldraper. Otherwise I have no idea what you are referring to in the article. I know you can't be referring to anything on this talk page because talk pages are for the free exchange of ideas and positing arguments. Please explain when you return onwiki what violation of MOS you are talking about. Quis separabit? 23:03, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
Quis separabit, I would appreciate if you ceased your incivility and also not refer to my contributions as a "tirade", it is clear you are emotionally involved in these edits and you should take a step backwards and take a deep breath. I kindly ask you to edit your description of my talk page contribution as a "tirade" and retract your remarks about me. Merry Christmas. ÓCorcráin (talk) 03:31, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
As far as incivility goes: "instead of mouthing off like a twit, and you keep ignoring the fact that O'Toole identified himself as an Irish man not British, one's ethnic identity and nationality are completely different from citizenship, anyone with a couple of brain cells would know that" -- I think that is a good example. I am unaware of anything remotely similar on my part.
However and nonetheless: Merry Christmas to you, as well. Let's agree to a truce until after New Year's Day, at least, although I would be happy to declare the matter resolved and leave things as they are now, if you and Somchai Sun agree. Quis separabit? 21:04, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

Identity[edit]

Let's look at it this way. What if every Irish individual with an article on Wikipedia who lived between 1801 and 1922, for example, were described as "British" due to the Act of Union? That would be foolish, inaccurate and obviously offensive. It is equally offensive, at least as far as I am concerned, and I know others agree, to state in the lede of an article about a man who was born, educated, served in the Royal Navy, worked, lived and died in England, that he was Irish, especially when compromise terms such as "British-Irish" are available. What about his Scottish mother? Maybe he should be described as "British-Irish-Scottish"? Jingoistic Irish media do not get to decide. Quis separabit? 19:10, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

...slow moving edit wars...[edit]

Are disruptive and most of all, annoying. I am pretty tired of seeing the lead change day by day here. If this continues, well, you know what's going to happen. And its happened so many times before, that it usually ends up with the lede being blanked or made "neutral" - whatever that means. Can people please find the truth and be done with it? Not likely. Rant over. --Somchai Sun (talk) 11:32, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

In the words of Phoebe Buffay, "STOP THE MADNESS!!!". Thank you. --Somchai Sun (talk) 18:19, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
I agree. I am getting tired of this intransigence and constant changing of the lede for jingoistic reasons. I would like to remove the article from my watchlist so I can concentrate on other matters. It may be time for DISPUTE RESOLUTION. (NOTE: Dispute resolution sought (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Peter_O'Toole.) Quis separabit? 19:43, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Birth/nationality/citizenship...[edit]

Today I have been trying to craft the lede so that Mr O'Toole's nationality and his citizenship are sourced from reliable sources and so that the wording is reflective of his heritage. The edits have been reverted with edit summaries but no discussion on this talk page. If we cannot discuss and solve this issue on this talk page without the slow-moving edit wars as referenced above, these concerns might need to begin to move through the Dispute process. (Take a look at the article's edit history.) Please weigh in below. Thank you. Shearonink (talk) 18:30, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

You don't understand the jingoistic and uncompromising nature of those who are determined to reword the lede with their factoids. They seem to think that the Irish President and Irish media determine other countries' citizens' nationality. It is not going to stop so we may as well seek DISPUTE RESOLUTION. Quis separabit? 19:24, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
Dispute resolution sought (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Peter_O'Toole). Quis separabit? 19:42, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

The problem, as I've said in edit summaries, is asserting things that are not supported by what's actually in the reference cited. Haldraper (talk) 19:56, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

I have been keeping on eye on this whole affair and these IP edits and your edits quis have clearly violated the 3RR it does not matter, I am making the article more neutral until the dispute has been resolved. Neither you or the IP have consensus for your edits and you are very liberal with the use of vandal, I suggest you ease down on the rhetoric and accusing people of having an agenda.ÓCorcráin (talk) 20:18, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
I already reported to ANI/3RR that I may have violated 3RR, albeit in combatting IP vandalism. Quis separabit? 20:22, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
Please explain how the edits are vandalism. --NeilN talk to me 20:28, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
I regard them as vandalism as they are unrelenting, intransigent demands, largely by unregistered and anonymous IPs which ignore all explanations, assertions and edit summaries with which they are not in complete agreement. IP demands are for text (in lede or lead) to be phrased exactly as they want it, rejecting all attempts at compromise (i.e. "British and Irish", "Irish-British", "British actor of Irish descent", "British actor of Irish and Scottish descent who later acquired Irish citizenship", et al). Quis separabit? 20:34, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
Edit-warring yes, which you are both guilty of, vandalism no. Also by your definition of vandalism it seems that you would be just as guilty as the IP. ÓCorcráin (talk) 20:48, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
Agree with ÓCorcráin. POV-pushing (which is not exempt from WP:3RR) maybe, but not vandalism. --NeilN talk to me 21:44, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
I really can't comment on the DRN at this time, so I just wanted to stop by and express my support for the lede/infobox being left blank until at least the DRN has finished. --Somchai Sun (talk) 22:05, 13 January 2014 (UTC)