Talk:Philip the Tetrarch

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Untitled[edit]

How does it come that Herod the great (Herod I) namnes his child by his third wife Mariamne II to Herod Philip II, and then his child by his fifth wife Clepatra of Jerusalem to Herod Philip I? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.233.122.235 (talkcontribs)

Good question. It is because it is incorrect. Phillip II is not his son. See this link http://virtualreligion.net/iho/herod2.html. I don't know what to do. It seems like this is going to be a ripple effect of wrong information. I don't know enough about the subject nor do I have the time to do the research, nor the desire to all the work this may involve. I may put up tags, if I get the time, though. Hopefully others will come along. (You didn't sign your comment, who are you? :( )- Jeeny Talk 20:40, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
My findings suggest the two have just got put the wrong way round at creation stage, and that Herod Philip I may be 1 and the same with Herod II anyway. I am amending accordingly. Neddyseagoon - talk 23:07, 9 May 2007 (UTC)


Response to Questions Above:[edit]

The numbers after the names of Herod Philip and Philip get confused because the names get confused in the mistaken belief that all the surviving sons of Herod the Great were all named "Herod". Herod Philip is the only child of Herod the Great that is actually named Herod. He had three (possibly four) brothers before him who were not Herods (i.e. Antipater, Alexander, Aristobulus, and maybe Boethus). The confusion stems from the idea of using "Herod" as an appellation, like "Ceasar", in the aftermath of Herod the Great's death. It's more likely the case that, as ethnarch and tetrarch, Archelaus and Antipas used "Herod" as an appellation. Readers of the bible often fail to make the distinction between Herod Philip and his younger brother Philip because they are both mentioned in the gospels. But Josephus is clear that they are two separate people. One was the father while the other was the husband of Salome, she of John the Baptist fame (her mother Herodias, was the daughter of their brother Aristobulus). Suffice it to say it's like a man named Billy having an older son named Billy Jack and then a younger son just named Jack. The use of numbers just confuses the issue and, in the final analysis, is not relevant. Herod Philip was never a tetrarch. In the accurate accounts which make the distinction, he abdicates before ever ruling and what was supposed to be his tetrarchy was integrated into Archelaus' tetrarchy (thus making him an ethnarch) which, upon Archelaus' removal by the Romans, became a Roman "state" ruled directly by a Roman procurator or governor, e.g. Pontius Pilate.Pvsalsedo (talk) 01:42, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Further[edit]

The whole question of naming seems inextricably confused. One problem is the habit of some modern authors of identifying different individuals with the same namke by the use of Roman numerals. (This can clash with the more generally accepted usd of the same numberinbg to indicate the order of various rulers witrh the same name.) Not all authors use numbering consistent wqith other authors. This observation seems to reinforce my argument for a rephrasing which I just posted on Herod Philip I and Herod Philip [disambiguation]. Here is a copy:

I question the whole existence of these three pages (Herod Philip [disambiguation], Herod Philip I and Herod Philip II). Philip the Tetrarch (born in c 26 BCE to Herod the Great and Cleopatra, of Jerusalem), the founder (or re-namer) of Caesarea Philippi, is (was) not known as Herod Philip. I can find no reference outside wikipedia to two Herod Philips. The use of references on these pages is cavalier.

  • The first reference given in the page on Herod Philip I ([1]) refers to the son of Cleopatra and Herod the Great as Philip (born c. 26 BCE). Kokkinos says (p 223) “The stubborn existence of many theologians in referring to Herod III as ‘Herod Philip’ is without any value” (233), and again on p. 266, “No illusory Herod Philip ever existed”.
  • The first external reference given (Philip the Tetrarch entry in historical sourcebook by Mahlon H. Smith) says “Secondary literature, such as Easton's Bible Dictionary, has often referred to him as "Herod Philip" although there is absolutely no evidence in primary sources that he mimicked his half-brother Antipas in claiming his father's name or was addressed as Herod by contemporaries. This is a convenient modern convention to distinguish him from other ancient Hellenized rulers with the same given name”, which casts doubt on the article it is supposed to support.

The pages on Herod Philip might be rephrased to say something like

See Philip the Tetrarch. The name Herod Philip appears to be a modern convenience. There is no evidence for contemporary uses of this nomenclature. It is an example of the great difficulty in establishing the relationships of various holders of the same name in the same area or family - especially in the Herodian dynasty (see [2]

The Cambridge Ancient History [3] Vol.10, says that Philip the Tetrarch, “unlike his brothers, did not use Herod as a dynastic name”, and refers to him throughout as Philip, or Philip the Tetrarch. The predecessor CAH [4] had already stated that Philip’s half-brothers Archelaus and Antipas had adopted the name of Herod, "presumably" for a dynastic claim from Herod the Great.

In a further example of the difficulty of naming individuals at this timer, particularly in the family of Herod the Great, , Kokkinos goes to some length to point out that Philip the Tetrarch married NOT Salome, but her mother Herodias, who may have been known as Herodias-Salome. The Salome often claimed to be the wife of Philip was the daughter of this Herodias-Salome, born about 1 BCE, the fruit of her marriage to Herod III, and therefore step-daughter as well as niece of Philip the Tetrarch. Herodias-Salome had divorced Herod III, the son of Herod the Great by Mariamme II (therefore the half-brother of Philip); after Philip’s death in 33 CE, she married a third half-brother, Antipas, the son of Herod the Great by Malthace. (Herod the Great’s sister was also called Salome, born c. 50 BCE.) The ‘Salome’ who asked for Jon the Baptist’s head is not named in the Bible: Matthew (14, 6) says “the daughter of Herodias danced before them”, but does not name her; and Mark (6. 22) similarly calls her “the daughter of the said Herodias”. It appears possible, at least, that the cause of Herod’s rage against John is that the latter was preaching not against him, but against his wife - who had divorced his half-brother, and therefore was not a permissible wife for him.

I am submitting this to the talk pages rather than editing the pages fully, as this appears to me, an outsider to the field (minefield?) of nomenclature around the time of Christ, to be contentious ground. MacAuslan (talk) 13:29, 7 June 2010 (UTC) MacAuslan (talk) 12:33, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

"The stubborn existence of many theologians in referring to Herod III as 'Herod Philip' is without any value...."

I wonder if this is a misprint. It would seem that the theologians are stubborn in their "insistence" not in merely their "existence" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.168.220.119 (talk) 19:11, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

  1. ^ Kokkinos, Nikkos (1998). The Herodian Dynasty: Origins, Role in Society and Eclipse. Journal for the Study of the Pseudepigrapha Supplement Series. Sheffield: Sheffield Academic Press
  2. ^ Kokkinos, Nikos, (1955- ) The Herodian dynasty : origins, role in society and eclipse, 518 pp; Sheffield : Sheffield Academic, Journal for the study of the Pseudepigrapha. Supplement series ; 30
  3. ^ Bowman, Alan K., Champlin Edward, and Lintott. Andrew (edd) (2001), Cambridge Ancient History, Vol.10, The Augustan Empire, 43 B.C.-A.D. 69, Cambridge, Cambridge University Press
  4. ^ Cambridge Ancient History, (latest reprint 1965), Gen. eds.: J.B. Bury, S.A. Cook, F.E. Adcock, M.P. Charlesworth, N.H. Baynes, Cambridge, Cambridge University Press: Vol.10, The Augustan empire, 44 B.C.-A.D. 70