Talk:Philistines

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Actually the bible indicates the Canaanite Hamo Semitic Origin of Philistines[edit]

The bible gives strong indication that "Philistine" were indeed a " Canaanite Hamo Semitic", the name of Philistinian king is Abimelech אֲבִימֶלֶךְ ( an Arabic/Semitic name translated to English "King Father"). This ( the semitic name of Abimelech אֲבִימֶלֶךְalone refute the Zionist's repetative fallacies and lies of the Philistinian's Aegean Origin.

Abimelech אֲבִימֶלֶךְ is the "Philistine" king who invited "Abraham" to live in "Philistine" see Genesis 21.

{And Abraham sojourned many days in the land of the Philistines. בְּאֶרֶץ פְּלִשְׁתִּים }Gen 21:34

avimelech is not in arabic but in hebrew, because king in arabic is malich and not melech. melech is the hebrew word for king.. i wrote this in here before but someone deleted it, probably because it doesn't fit their agenda.

Correct, but note the Phoenician and Canaanite words are also the same. There could be various explanations for that, but when it comes to reasons why people start using their neighbour's languages it pays to avoid the temptation of jumping onto the most simplistic answer, because it's often quite complex. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 12:46, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

The Number of Jews[edit]

Were there many Jews in that time to occupy all these lands that showed by the map ? I don't think so. Initially, Jews were not able to take all this land. (Y) yes, there were.

Yes there were, the Jewish movement was large enough to be a threat to the Roman empire:

http://www.hirhome.com/israel/crux01.pdf —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.109.182.84 (talk) 14:01, August 24, 2007 (UTC)

That was a thousand and more years later. And in truth they were no "threat", just an annoyance that was ultimately dealt with pretty quickly. ♆ CUSH ♆ 17:43, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

Notice of Dispute resolution discussion[edit]

The Bible paints them as the Kingdom of Israel's most dangerous enemy(?)[edit]

That's POV. Maybe at one point in time they were (before David took back the land of promise), but it is arguable that Israel had greater enemies. the Assyrians, the Babylonians, and the Persians were far greater threats to Israel than Philistine. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.106.18.70 (talk) 15:44, 27 September 2013 (UTC)



Philistine pig imports- Unsure where to place this on the page[edit]

See here: [[1]] This is a really interesting- and notable- study that I found about wild pigs in Israel. It was discovered, with consideration of ancient pig bones as well, that pigs in Israel have a different, more European, genetic structure than pigs in neighboring countries, and scientists have argued that this is because they were brought to the country 3000 years ago by the non-kosher Philistines, suggesting an "Aegean" origin for Philistines... I'm just not sure where it should go on this page. --Yalens (talk) 16:44, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Semitic?[edit]

This book suggests that most Philistine town names were Semitic, and mentions other semitic language connections. On the basis of this, this article needs to be more balanced re the Greek vs. Semitic question. Oncenawhile (talk) 18:57, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

They were semitic due to the fact these names,towns and even the philistines themselves were named by the hebrews philistine derives from the hebrew root word "peleshet" or invader. They were greek. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:D:9580:E47:415:6E4A:E563:BF49 (talk) 18:49, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Pelasgians[edit]

I am not disputing the idea that a minority scholars have in the past drawn a connection here (though I think it was generally not a mainstream argument) but the quote from Drews (reference 4), if I am not mistaken, is dismissive of this idea (just to judge by the quoted material). Is it appropriate then, to imply that this is a current idea (or even a mainstream one) as I think the phrase "since 1873" does? Even if it is appropriate, is Drews an appropriate source for this sentence given his negative characterization of this connection? I cannot speak to the other book cited, since it is not quoted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:18E8:2:11BD:4A3:9EDB:C17C:21B1 (talk) 17:38, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Nissim Ganor (Who Were the Phoenicians?) (also [http://www.whowerethephoenicians.com/wp-content/uploads/book/09-THE%20PHILISTINES%20AND%20THE%20SEA%20PEOPLES%20NOT%20THE%20SAME%20ENTITY.pdf here}) writes:
"Today it is generally accepted (in accordance with the theory of Maspero) that we are dealing here with different nations which migrated from the region of Crete or Asia Minor, and tried to infiltrate into Egypt. Repulsed by the Egyptians, the Philistines (P. R. S. T.) settled in the coastal area of Canaan, while the Tyrsenes, Sardanes, and others migrated to Italy, Sardinia and other places. In 1747 Fourmont tried to prove that the name "Philistine" was an erroneous form of the Greek "Pelasgi". His theory was accepted by Chabas, Hitzig and others who enlarged upon it. Maspero stated in this context: "The name 'Plishti' by itself suggests a foreign origin or long migrations and recalls that of the Pelasgi". The equation Plishti–Pelasgi is based solely on a supposedly phonetic similarity."
So Ganor explicitly confirms the "general acceptance" of the theory.
Oncenawhile (talk) 19:02, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

New discoveries - Palistin and Walistin[edit]

Killebrew's 2013 book (page 662-3) describes in two detailed footnote paragraphs a number of new inscriptions now entering the Philistines debate. Oncenawhile (talk) 20:15, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

Background in Bronze Age[edit]

This edit by User:PiCo [2] in 2011 added an unsourced background section to the article. i have removed it, primarily because it is very generic and is not closely enough related to the topic of this article. Anyone who disagrees is welcome to add it back, but please also provide sources. Oncenawhile (talk) 10:37, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Proposal to merge with Philistia[edit]

I propose to merge this article with Philistia, given the latter appears to be a fork with very little if any different content from this article. Oncenawhile (talk) 19:21, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

  • Disagree. Philistia/Filistia/Palaestina is the name of a geographic region not necessarily inhabited by Philistines, while Philistines were a people living at various times all over the Levant and not only in geographical Philistia. ♆ CUSH ♆ 07:11, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Strong Agree Philistia was derived from the Philistines, who were there at various times. They should be credited with this with a logical merge. Reaper7 (talk) 13:25, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose - per Cush.GreyShark (dibra) 05:27, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose - there is a difference, Philistia is in Palestine while Philistines are attested in Egypt and Syria too --Attar-Aram syria (talk) 09:55, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Majority of encyclopedias open with the Philistines being Aegean/Cretan, why not Wiki? What's the agenda here?[edit]

1/ Philistine, one of a people of Aegean origin who settled on the southern coast of Palestine in the 12th century bc, about the time of the arrival of the Israelites. According to biblical tradition (Deuteronomy 2:23; Jeremiah 47:4), the Philistines came from Caphtor (possibly Crete). Brittanica

2/ Member of a group of Aegean origin that settled on the southern coast of Palestine. The Philistines first settled the region during the 12th century BC, about the time the Israelites arrived. They lived in five cities (the Pentapolis) that together made up Philistia, from which the Greeks derived the name Palestine. merriam-webster

3/ Philistines (fĬl´Ĭstēnz, fĬlĬs´–), inhabitants of Philistia, a non-Semitic people who came to Palestine from the Aegean (probably Crete), in the 12th cent. http://www.encyclopedia.com/

Any ideas? Reaper7 (talk) 13:43, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

The Aegean connection is in the lead. On Crete, this is a complex topic based on Cherethites. I agree we should include it, explaining the origin of the theory. Oncenawhile (talk) 18:51, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
The "agenda" or maybe with less pathos, the reason is that Wikipedia is dominated by religious editors. All articles on any subject relating to the history of the Ancient Middle East are more or less focused on biblical or bible-inspired sources, no matter how inaccurate. Sources on WP are selected based on assumed reputation of authors, not on demonstrable factual validity and reasonable secondary references to primary sources. ♆ CUSH ♆


But that is the point Oncenawhile. This article suggests an Aegean connection(?) towards the end of the second paragraph! Every other encyclopedia describes the Philistines as an Aegean people in the first line! This article describes them as 'people'? What is the agenda, is there some doubt that they were Aegean on wiki, that all the editors of every other Encyclopedia have missed? Reaper7 (talk) 23:27, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
I am working my way through the sources, but from what I have read so far there is no certainty that they even existed at all, although most scholars believe they did. All modern scholars who focus on the origins of the Philistines question the Aegean thesis, because the evidence is extremely thin, but either way it is the common viewpoint as we make very clear.
The only reason it's in the second paragraph is because the first paragraph is devoted to the Biblical description. To my mind this is the right way round, because the Biblical Philistines are ultimately the original reason for the scholarly focus on the topic. Once we establish the Biblical background, we move on to explain the connections scholars have made to modern archaeology etc.
PS - secondary sources trump tertiary sources. Our job is not to copy other encyclopaedias, but to make an even better one. We've got some good secondary sources in the "Sources" section of this article, so I suggest you review those.
Oncenawhile (talk) 23:37, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
This sentence is an oxymoron: there is no certainty that they even existed at all, although most scholars believe they did. So in fact, most scholars believing they did exist is called a majority of scholarship. The Biblical references connect them with Crete (Caphtor, the Hebrew name for at least the island of Crete and perhaps for the whole Aegean region; see Amos 9:7; Jeremiah 47:4)). So therefore, perhaps the Biblical background as you put should include where the Bible points to them coming from? The Biblical description points to their hellenic origin. The rest of the article should be based around that really. I really think this article is a big mess, I am not here to point fingers, just to say, it makes a big confusion of the few things we know or scholars agree on. I am also afraid this statement is a fallacy: All modern scholars who focus on the origins of the Philistines question the Aegean thesis. Lawrence Stager among others concludes that the Philistines were Aegean peoples”specifically Mycenaean Greeks” who came to Canann en masse in about 1175 B.C. and to be honest, with pottery like this discovered all over Gaza.. there is little doubt about that to anyone who has studied Greek pottery in any detail... Http://www.bib-arch.org/images/e-features/canaanites-and-philistines-22-s.jpg There are plenty of other examples highlighted through archaeology from olive oil production techniques to philistine graves.
There is definitely an agenda here, I am not smart enough to figure it out unfortunately but it sure stinks! Anyway at least you can be proud wiki diverges from every other encyclopedia in this article I suppose. Impressive to a degree. Reaper7 (talk) 00:13, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── OK, you're right - it's not "all" - many scholars take this kind of thing for granted. The association with the pottery has been made "since the turn of the [twentieth] century" (Ehrich p.4 and Dothan p.94 n.1) Perhaps i'm only reading the works of the more analytical scholars out there. Anyway, here's an interesting quote for you from Carl Ehrlich (p10-13):

The difficulty of associating pots with peoples or ethnic groups has often been commented on. Nonetheless, the association of the Philistines with the Iron Age I bichrome pottery bearing their name is most often taken for granted. Although some scholars have backed off from postulating that every site with bichrome pottery was under Philistine control, the ethnic association remains. Wherever the distinctive early Iron Age bichrome ware is found, Philistine ethnic presence is assumed. Indeed, Singer has recently argued that the Myc IIIC:1b ware should be designated "Monochrome (or early) Philistine pottery." A cautionary note has, however, been sounded in particular by Brug, Bunimovitz, H. Weippert, and Noort, among others.
In essence their theories rest on the fact that even among sites in the Philistine heartland, the supposed Philistine pottery does not represent the major portion of the finds. Although Brug's statisucal analysis of the proportion of bichrome pottery to other forms (mainly the continuation of LB Canaanite traditions) is flawed by his reliance on samples not gathered to be analyzed in this manner, the cumulative thrust of his argument is probably valid, namely that the bichrome ware represents a small proportion of the total assemblage from supposedly Philistine sites. For example, at Tell Qasile, the only city thought to have been founded by the Philistines, the bichrome pottery represents just 20% of the total assemblage. It is thus conjectured that the bichrome ware and its antecedent monochrome ware were the fine china or luxury ware of their time. The fact that both the monochrome and the bichrome wares were locally produced (along with pottery which continued the Bronze Age Canaanite traditions) after the cesation of trade contacts with Cyprus and the Aegean leads to the conclusion that, rather than being evidence of a massive foreign incursion into Canaan ca. 1175, these wares were local replacements for the now unavailable Late Bronze Age luxury import wares. While not denying Cypriote and/or Aegean/ Mycenean influence in the material cultural traditions of coastal Canaan in the early Iron Age, in addition to that of Egyptian and local Canaanite traditions, the above named "minimalist" scholars emphasize the continuities between the ages and not the differences. As H. Weippert has stated, "Konige kommen, Konige gehen, aber die Kochtopfe bleiben." In regard to the bichrome pottery she follows Galling and speculates that it was produced by a family or families of Cypriote potters who followed their markets and immigrated into Canaan once the preexisting trade connections had been severed. The find at Tell Qasile of both bichrome and Canaanite types originating in the same pottery workshop would appear to indicate that the ethnic identification of the potters is at best an open question. At any rate it cannot be facilely assumed that all bichrome ware was produced by "ethnic" Philistines.6m Thus Bunimovitz's suggestion to refer to "Philistia pottery" rather than to "Philistine" must be given serious consideration.
What holds true for the pottery of Philistia also holds true for other aspects of the regional material culture. Whereas Aegean cultural influence cannot be denied, the continuity with the Late Bronze traditions in Philistia has increasingly come to attention. A number of Iron Age I features which were thought to be imported by the Philistines have been shown to have Late Bronze Age antecedents. It would hence appear that the Philistines of foreign (or "Philistine") origin were the minority in Philistia. Just as the origins of Israel in Iron Age I are shrouded in mystery and we are unable to pinpoint the changeover from a "Canaanite" consciousness to an "Israelite" one on the basis of isolated cultural phenomena, so too in the case of the contemporaneous inhabitants of the coastal regions of Canaan. Many cultural influences were at work in a variegated population to which the name "Philistine" was given - similarly to Israel - pars pro toto, possibly by the late eleventh century BCE, ironically a time in which the distinctive material culture traditionally associated with the Philistines was waning.

By the way, you are wrong to say that the "Biblical references connect them with Crete". It is actually the modern interpretation of the Biblical references which make that connection, not the Bible itself.

Oncenawhile (talk) 09:01, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

Lawrence Stager is not analytic enough? Goodness... I think you have lost the forest through the trees to be honest and the article reflects that confusion. Within the first line of the article it should be mentioned that the Philistines were an aegean people. That is the consensus whether it suits one's own internal politics or not. I am going to add the word Aegean in front of 'people' in the opening sentence. If you can prove the majority of scholars don't believe this, please find references stating that. Reaper7 (talk) 15:55, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
Your edit does not make sense - they were not described as Aegean in the Bible, which is what your edit implies. I am not against your core point, but whatever we include we should do it properly and clearly.
I will bring some more sources. Oncenawhile (talk) 07:39, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
I stated, if you find references stating that the majority of scholars/encyclopedia don't believe them to be Aegean, you can delete it. You just deleted it with nothing but another promise. Its ok, someone with more time can fix all the damage you have done here. Do as you please. You are the one who has to sleep at night knowing you have edited misinformation into an article that now disagrees with all the other Encyclopedia on earth. Do as you please and don't bother with a lone reference if you even manages to find more than two, as most articles, analytic scholars/Encyclopedia agree they were an Aegean people and over 90% of Encyclopedia mention this in the first line.. Remember this lie? All modern scholars who focus on the origins of the Philistines question the Aegean thesis You lied before and seem to be very dominant over your misinformation. Please don't take my failure to ever visit this page again as a symbol of your intelligence but rather a disgust of lies and manipulation concerning your perversion for misinformation. Feel free to have the last words, for ego etc.. It was worth a try... Reaper7 (talk) 13:19, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Hi User:Reaper7, I'm sorry you feel that way.
I wonder did you not see my edit earlier today [3] in which I added the Aegean point? I hoped that this was what you were looking for?
I do hope you will continue to edit here as your views are valuable to this and other discussions. But please try not to make it personal as you did above, and please try to WP:AGF. The AGF point really is fundamental - if you obsess about possible "agendas" and conspiracy theories you miss the simple beauty of wikipedia, which is that we just need to agree on the best sources and follow them.
Oncenawhile (talk) 16:58, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
I have just added another source from 2011 titled: "A Current Assessment of the Evidence for the Minoan Connection with the Philistines". It is linked in the article and is readable online. I suggest you read it, as well as the 1998 Drews article and Ehrlich's book. Oncenawhile (talk) 17:45, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Here are two more interesting sources to read on the topic:

Oncenawhile (talk) 18:53, 17 July 2014 (UTC)