Talk:Philistines

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Actually the bible indicates the Canaanite Hamo Semitic Origin of Philistines[edit]

The bible gives strong indication that "Philistine" were indeed a " Canaanite Hamo Semitic", the name of Philistinian king is Abimelech אֲבִימֶלֶךְ ( an Arabic/Semitic name translated to English "King Father"). This ( the semitic name of Abimelech אֲבִימֶלֶךְalone refute the Zionist's repetative fallacies and lies of the Philistinian's Aegean Origin.

Abimelech אֲבִימֶלֶךְ is the "Philistine" king who invited "Abraham" to live in "Philistine" see Genesis 21.

{And Abraham sojourned many days in the land of the Philistines. בְּאֶרֶץ פְּלִשְׁתִּים }Gen 21:34

avimelech is not in arabic but in hebrew, because king in arabic is malich and not melech. melech is the hebrew word for king.. i wrote this in here before but someone deleted it, probably because it doesn't fit their agenda.

Correct, but note the Phoenician and Canaanite words are also the same. There could be various explanations for that, but when it comes to reasons why people start using their neighbour's languages it pays to avoid the temptation of jumping onto the most simplistic answer, because it's often quite complex. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 12:46, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

The Number of Jews[edit]

Were there many Jews in that time to occupy all these lands that showed by the map ? I don't think so. Initially, Jews were not able to take all this land. (Y) yes, there were.

Yes there were, the Jewish movement was large enough to be a threat to the Roman empire:

http://www.hirhome.com/israel/crux01.pdf —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.109.182.84 (talk) 14:01, August 24, 2007 (UTC)

That was a thousand and more years later. And in truth they were no "threat", just an annoyance that was ultimately dealt with pretty quickly. ♆ CUSH ♆ 17:43, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

Notice of Dispute resolution discussion[edit]

The Bible paints them as the Kingdom of Israel's most dangerous enemy(?)[edit]

That's POV. Maybe at one point in time they were (before David took back the land of promise), but it is arguable that Israel had greater enemies. the Assyrians, the Babylonians, and the Persians were far greater threats to Israel than Philistine. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.106.18.70 (talk) 15:44, 27 September 2013 (UTC)



Philistine pig imports- Unsure where to place this on the page[edit]

See here: [[1]] This is a really interesting- and notable- study that I found about wild pigs in Israel. It was discovered, with consideration of ancient pig bones as well, that pigs in Israel have a different, more European, genetic structure than pigs in neighboring countries, and scientists have argued that this is because they were brought to the country 3000 years ago by the non-kosher Philistines, suggesting an "Aegean" origin for Philistines... I'm just not sure where it should go on this page. --Yalens (talk) 16:44, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Semitic?[edit]

This book suggests that most Philistine town names were Semitic, and mentions other semitic language connections. On the basis of this, this article needs to be more balanced re the Greek vs. Semitic question. Oncenawhile (talk) 18:57, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

They were semitic due to the fact these names,towns and even the philistines themselves were named by the hebrews philistine derives from the hebrew root word "peleshet" or invader. They were greek. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:D:9580:E47:415:6E4A:E563:BF49 (talk) 18:49, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Pelasgians[edit]

I am not disputing the idea that a minority scholars have in the past drawn a connection here (though I think it was generally not a mainstream argument) but the quote from Drews (reference 4), if I am not mistaken, is dismissive of this idea (just to judge by the quoted material). Is it appropriate then, to imply that this is a current idea (or even a mainstream one) as I think the phrase "since 1873" does? Even if it is appropriate, is Drews an appropriate source for this sentence given his negative characterization of this connection? I cannot speak to the other book cited, since it is not quoted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:18E8:2:11BD:4A3:9EDB:C17C:21B1 (talk) 17:38, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Nissim Ganor (Who Were the Phoenicians?) (also [http://www.whowerethephoenicians.com/wp-content/uploads/book/09-THE%20PHILISTINES%20AND%20THE%20SEA%20PEOPLES%20NOT%20THE%20SAME%20ENTITY.pdf here}) writes:
"Today it is generally accepted (in accordance with the theory of Maspero) that we are dealing here with different nations which migrated from the region of Crete or Asia Minor, and tried to infiltrate into Egypt. Repulsed by the Egyptians, the Philistines (P. R. S. T.) settled in the coastal area of Canaan, while the Tyrsenes, Sardanes, and others migrated to Italy, Sardinia and other places. In 1747 Fourmont tried to prove that the name "Philistine" was an erroneous form of the Greek "Pelasgi". His theory was accepted by Chabas, Hitzig and others who enlarged upon it. Maspero stated in this context: "The name 'Plishti' by itself suggests a foreign origin or long migrations and recalls that of the Pelasgi". The equation Plishti–Pelasgi is based solely on a supposedly phonetic similarity."
So Ganor explicitly confirms the "general acceptance" of the theory.
Oncenawhile (talk) 19:02, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

New discoveries - Palistin and Walistin[edit]

Killebrew's 2013 book (page 662-3) describes in two detailed footnote paragraphs a number of new inscriptions now entering the Philistines debate. Oncenawhile (talk) 20:15, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

Background in Bronze Age[edit]

This edit by User:PiCo [2] in 2011 added an unsourced background section to the article. i have removed it, primarily because it is very generic and is not closely enough related to the topic of this article. Anyone who disagrees is welcome to add it back, but please also provide sources. Oncenawhile (talk) 10:37, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Proposal to merge with Philistia[edit]

I propose to merge this article with Philistia, given the latter appears to be a fork with very little if any different content from this article. Oncenawhile (talk) 19:21, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

  • Disagree. Philistia/Filistia/Palaestina is the name of a geographic region not necessarily inhabited by Philistines, while Philistines were a people living at various times all over the Levant and not only in geographical Philistia. ♆ CUSH ♆ 07:11, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Strong Agree Philistia was derived from the Philistines, who were there at various times. They should be credited with this with a logical merge. Reaper7 (talk) 13:25, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose - per Cush.GreyShark (dibra) 05:27, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose - there is a difference, Philistia is in Palestine while Philistines are attested in Egypt and Syria too --Attar-Aram syria (talk) 09:55, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Majority of encyclopedias open with the Philistines being Aegean/Cretan, why not Wiki? What's the agenda here?[edit]

1/ Philistine, one of a people of Aegean origin who settled on the southern coast of Palestine in the 12th century bc, about the time of the arrival of the Israelites. According to biblical tradition (Deuteronomy 2:23; Jeremiah 47:4), the Philistines came from Caphtor (possibly Crete). Brittanica

2/ Member of a group of Aegean origin that settled on the southern coast of Palestine. The Philistines first settled the region during the 12th century BC, about the time the Israelites arrived. They lived in five cities (the Pentapolis) that together made up Philistia, from which the Greeks derived the name Palestine. merriam-webster

3/ Philistines (fĬl´Ĭstēnz, fĬlĬs´–), inhabitants of Philistia, a non-Semitic people who came to Palestine from the Aegean (probably Crete), in the 12th cent. http://www.encyclopedia.com/

Any ideas? Reaper7 (talk) 13:43, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

The Aegean connection is in the lead. On Crete, this is a complex topic based on Cherethites. I agree we should include it, explaining the origin of the theory. Oncenawhile (talk) 18:51, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
The "agenda" or maybe with less pathos, the reason is that Wikipedia is dominated by religious editors. All articles on any subject relating to the history of the Ancient Middle East are more or less focused on biblical or bible-inspired sources, no matter how inaccurate. Sources on WP are selected based on assumed reputation of authors, not on demonstrable factual validity and reasonable secondary references to primary sources. ♆ CUSH ♆


But that is the point Oncenawhile. This article suggests an Aegean connection(?) towards the end of the second paragraph! Every other encyclopedia describes the Philistines as an Aegean people in the first line! This article describes them as 'people'? What is the agenda, is there some doubt that they were Aegean on wiki, that all the editors of every other Encyclopedia have missed? Reaper7 (talk) 23:27, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
I am working my way through the sources, but from what I have read so far there is no certainty that they even existed at all, although most scholars believe they did. All modern scholars who focus on the origins of the Philistines question the Aegean thesis, because the evidence is extremely thin, but either way it is the common viewpoint as we make very clear.
The only reason it's in the second paragraph is because the first paragraph is devoted to the Biblical description. To my mind this is the right way round, because the Biblical Philistines are ultimately the original reason for the scholarly focus on the topic. Once we establish the Biblical background, we move on to explain the connections scholars have made to modern archaeology etc.
PS - secondary sources trump tertiary sources. Our job is not to copy other encyclopaedias, but to make an even better one. We've got some good secondary sources in the "Sources" section of this article, so I suggest you review those.
Oncenawhile (talk) 23:37, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
This sentence is an oxymoron: there is no certainty that they even existed at all, although most scholars believe they did. So in fact, most scholars believing they did exist is called a majority of scholarship. The Biblical references connect them with Crete (Caphtor, the Hebrew name for at least the island of Crete and perhaps for the whole Aegean region; see Amos 9:7; Jeremiah 47:4)). So therefore, perhaps the Biblical background as you put should include where the Bible points to them coming from? The Biblical description points to their hellenic origin. The rest of the article should be based around that really. I really think this article is a big mess, I am not here to point fingers, just to say, it makes a big confusion of the few things we know or scholars agree on. I am also afraid this statement is a fallacy: All modern scholars who focus on the origins of the Philistines question the Aegean thesis. Lawrence Stager among others concludes that the Philistines were Aegean peoples”specifically Mycenaean Greeks” who came to Canann en masse in about 1175 B.C. and to be honest, with pottery like this discovered all over Gaza.. there is little doubt about that to anyone who has studied Greek pottery in any detail... Http://www.bib-arch.org/images/e-features/canaanites-and-philistines-22-s.jpg There are plenty of other examples highlighted through archaeology from olive oil production techniques to philistine graves.
There is definitely an agenda here, I am not smart enough to figure it out unfortunately but it sure stinks! Anyway at least you can be proud wiki diverges from every other encyclopedia in this article I suppose. Impressive to a degree. Reaper7 (talk) 00:13, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── OK, you're right - it's not "all" - many scholars take this kind of thing for granted. The association with the pottery has been made "since the turn of the [twentieth] century" (Ehrich p.4 and Dothan p.94 n.1) Perhaps i'm only reading the works of the more analytical scholars out there. Anyway, here's an interesting quote for you from Carl Ehrlich (p10-13):

The difficulty of associating pots with peoples or ethnic groups has often been commented on. Nonetheless, the association of the Philistines with the Iron Age I bichrome pottery bearing their name is most often taken for granted. Although some scholars have backed off from postulating that every site with bichrome pottery was under Philistine control, the ethnic association remains. Wherever the distinctive early Iron Age bichrome ware is found, Philistine ethnic presence is assumed. Indeed, Singer has recently argued that the Myc IIIC:1b ware should be designated "Monochrome (or early) Philistine pottery." A cautionary note has, however, been sounded in particular by Brug, Bunimovitz, H. Weippert, and Noort, among others.
In essence their theories rest on the fact that even among sites in the Philistine heartland, the supposed Philistine pottery does not represent the major portion of the finds. Although Brug's statisucal analysis of the proportion of bichrome pottery to other forms (mainly the continuation of LB Canaanite traditions) is flawed by his reliance on samples not gathered to be analyzed in this manner, the cumulative thrust of his argument is probably valid, namely that the bichrome ware represents a small proportion of the total assemblage from supposedly Philistine sites. For example, at Tell Qasile, the only city thought to have been founded by the Philistines, the bichrome pottery represents just 20% of the total assemblage. It is thus conjectured that the bichrome ware and its antecedent monochrome ware were the fine china or luxury ware of their time. The fact that both the monochrome and the bichrome wares were locally produced (along with pottery which continued the Bronze Age Canaanite traditions) after the cesation of trade contacts with Cyprus and the Aegean leads to the conclusion that, rather than being evidence of a massive foreign incursion into Canaan ca. 1175, these wares were local replacements for the now unavailable Late Bronze Age luxury import wares. While not denying Cypriote and/or Aegean/ Mycenean influence in the material cultural traditions of coastal Canaan in the early Iron Age, in addition to that of Egyptian and local Canaanite traditions, the above named "minimalist" scholars emphasize the continuities between the ages and not the differences. As H. Weippert has stated, "Konige kommen, Konige gehen, aber die Kochtopfe bleiben." In regard to the bichrome pottery she follows Galling and speculates that it was produced by a family or families of Cypriote potters who followed their markets and immigrated into Canaan once the preexisting trade connections had been severed. The find at Tell Qasile of both bichrome and Canaanite types originating in the same pottery workshop would appear to indicate that the ethnic identification of the potters is at best an open question. At any rate it cannot be facilely assumed that all bichrome ware was produced by "ethnic" Philistines.6m Thus Bunimovitz's suggestion to refer to "Philistia pottery" rather than to "Philistine" must be given serious consideration.
What holds true for the pottery of Philistia also holds true for other aspects of the regional material culture. Whereas Aegean cultural influence cannot be denied, the continuity with the Late Bronze traditions in Philistia has increasingly come to attention. A number of Iron Age I features which were thought to be imported by the Philistines have been shown to have Late Bronze Age antecedents. It would hence appear that the Philistines of foreign (or "Philistine") origin were the minority in Philistia. Just as the origins of Israel in Iron Age I are shrouded in mystery and we are unable to pinpoint the changeover from a "Canaanite" consciousness to an "Israelite" one on the basis of isolated cultural phenomena, so too in the case of the contemporaneous inhabitants of the coastal regions of Canaan. Many cultural influences were at work in a variegated population to which the name "Philistine" was given - similarly to Israel - pars pro toto, possibly by the late eleventh century BCE, ironically a time in which the distinctive material culture traditionally associated with the Philistines was waning.

By the way, you are wrong to say that the "Biblical references connect them with Crete". It is actually the modern interpretation of the Biblical references which make that connection, not the Bible itself.

Oncenawhile (talk) 09:01, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

Lawrence Stager is not analytic enough? Goodness... I think you have lost the forest through the trees to be honest and the article reflects that confusion. Within the first line of the article it should be mentioned that the Philistines were an aegean people. That is the consensus whether it suits one's own internal politics or not. I am going to add the word Aegean in front of 'people' in the opening sentence. If you can prove the majority of scholars don't believe this, please find references stating that. Reaper7 (talk) 15:55, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
Your edit does not make sense - they were not described as Aegean in the Bible, which is what your edit implies. I am not against your core point, but whatever we include we should do it properly and clearly.
I will bring some more sources. Oncenawhile (talk) 07:39, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
I stated, if you find references stating that the majority of scholars/encyclopedia don't believe them to be Aegean, you can delete it. You just deleted it with nothing but another promise. Its ok, someone with more time can fix all the damage you have done here. Do as you please. You are the one who has to sleep at night knowing you have edited misinformation into an article that now disagrees with all the other Encyclopedia on earth. Do as you please and don't bother with a lone reference if you even manages to find more than two, as most articles, analytic scholars/Encyclopedia agree they were an Aegean people and over 90% of Encyclopedia mention this in the first line.. Remember this lie? All modern scholars who focus on the origins of the Philistines question the Aegean thesis You lied before and seem to be very dominant over your misinformation. Please don't take my failure to ever visit this page again as a symbol of your intelligence but rather a disgust of lies and manipulation concerning your perversion for misinformation. Feel free to have the last words, for ego etc.. It was worth a try... Reaper7 (talk) 13:19, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Hi User:Reaper7, I'm sorry you feel that way.
I wonder did you not see my edit earlier today [3] in which I added the Aegean point? I hoped that this was what you were looking for?
I do hope you will continue to edit here as your views are valuable to this and other discussions. But please try not to make it personal as you did above, and please try to WP:AGF. The AGF point really is fundamental - if you obsess about possible "agendas" and conspiracy theories you miss the simple beauty of wikipedia, which is that we just need to agree on the best sources and follow them.
Oncenawhile (talk) 16:58, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
I have just added another source from 2011 titled: "A Current Assessment of the Evidence for the Minoan Connection with the Philistines". It is linked in the article and is readable online. I suggest you read it, as well as the 1998 Drews article and Ehrlich's book. Oncenawhile (talk) 17:45, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Here are two more interesting sources to read on the topic:

Oncenawhile (talk) 18:53, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

User:Reaper7,All sources here and editors showed that there is a clear consensus that Philistines were of Aegyian origin as Encylopedia Britannica presents it. User:Oncenawhile you cant put biblical claims and deny historic claims, against the clear consensus shown on this talk page.--Tritomex (talk) 17:28, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
Tritomex, have you read the sources in the discussion above and in the article lead? To suggest that Philistines are a confirmed historical people in wikipedia's neutral voice does not tie with the sources given. The Philistines are a people mentioned in the bible that biblical archaeologists have been working to identify for a very long time.
The quality of the sourcing in this article is at a scholarly level, so if don't agree you'll need to provide equally scholarly sources supporting your view. Oncenawhile (talk) 19:11, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
Philistines were an Aegyian people, and they are historic people, with numerous archaeological sites attributed to them. Encyclopedia Britannica is off course very much reliable scholary source but you can read also
  • The Philistines and Aegean Migration at the End of the Late Bronze Age By Assaf Yasur-Landau from P:1,
  • The Ancient World By Richard A. Gabriel P:193
  • The Oxford History of the Biblical World edited by Michael David Coogan (Philsitines)
  • Ancient Greeks West and East: Edited by Gocha R. Tsetskhladze edited by Gocha R. Tsetskhladz P:85,
  • A Human History of the Mediterranean By David Abulafi P:644
  • The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia: A-D edited by Geoffrey W. Bromile P:477
  • The Uttermost Part of the Earth: A Guide to Places in the Bible
  • By Richard R. Losc Biblical History and Israel's Past: The Changing Study of the Bible and History By Megan Bishop Moore, Brad E. Kelle P:20

The current lead starting with the biblical origin and biblical hypothesis instead of historic facts regarding this historic people can not stand per WP rules.--Tritomex (talk) 19:32, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

Tritomex, you have brought 1 specialist source (Yasur-Landau) and 7 non-specialists. The 7 non-specialist sources add nothing to this debate given the sourcing in the lead is already of higher standard. As are the links given above in this thread, which it seems you have yet to read.
I have read your first source (Yasur-Landau). You should too. To keep things efficient, please read just seven pages, all viewable on googlebooks at this link. Just read the first 7 pages of the introduction.
Oncenawhile (talk) 22:37, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
Actually, just to ensure we stop wasting time, please read the sources already in the lead before responding. Supporting quotes are clearly provided, particularly for those refs in the final paragraph which is key to your concern. Oncenawhile (talk) 22:45, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
Oncenawhile, Currently I have no time to finish this now, but I will be back and this issue will likely go to RFC. Your assumption that I did not reed the sources I stated is wrong and little insulting. 1) The clear concensus among main historians is that Philistines were historic people and 2) that Philistines were of Aegean origin. So I do not understand why you try to replace the sentence in the lead regarding who Philistines were, with biblical claims. This is the prevailing opinion as it is clear from all sources used and mentioned, and you were told this fact by other editors too. Biblical claims regarding historic people can not go in front of historic facts, also there are other problems with the way how in lead some authors have been interpreted, yet this is of secondary importance.- --Tritomex (talk) 01:50, 1 November 2014 (UTC)
Hi Tritomex, no problem, please ping me when you have more time and we can complete this discussion. My key contention here is that Yasur-Landau, and other sources we use in the lead are very clear, as they explain that:
  • scholarly consensus in the late 19th / early 20th century was exactly as you mention (i.e. (1) that the Philistines as described in the bible are confirmed archeologically, and (2) that the Aegean origin hypothesis has been confirmed archeologically), but also that
  • scholarly discussion evolved in the last few decades such that there is no longer any clear consensus regarding either point (1) or (2).
The lack of consensus in modern scholarship is made very clear in the key sources provided, including Yasur-Landau, Silberman and Sherratt in this thread above, as well as Drews and Finkelstein in the article.
Oncenawhile (talk) 08:15, 1 November 2014 (UTC)
Hi Tritomex, yes we have a bit problem here with Oncenawhile. I am afraid he wont budge in accordance with logic. Reading his user page you can many other problems concerning this editor. If you want a neutral article, you will have to get other involved, he is willing to argue his non-historical version for the next 100 years and any references you display to him are simply brushed aside. Reaper7 (talk) 20:52, 1 November 2014 (UTC)
Reaper, I suggest you review WP:NPA. You are wrong about me (my edit history is there for your viewing pleasure), as my focus is to ensure we represent the broad scholarly position accurately even if a preponderence of other reputable sources ultimately shows that my initial understanding was wrong. To suggest I "won't budge" in the face of logic and facts just shows that you have yet to get to know me. I recognise that trust takes time to build, but that does not excuse your refusal to WP:AGF in the meantime.
To repeat, I am very keen to continue this conversation with both you and Tritomex. The only reason we have yet to conclude one way or the other is because neither of you currently have time to read the sources I have pointed you to here and in the article. I have commented on both Stager and Yasur-Landau and respect both of those, amongst other specialist modern scholars on the subject. I look forward to discussing further when you have time (and ideally when you have apologised for the above ad hominem).
Oncenawhile (talk) 00:58, 2 November 2014 (UTC)
Well I am the third editor on this sub topic alone to have a problem with your style and content. All three of us have tried to bring this article in line with logic and met you telling us to read links we already have - and what is more - assuming bad faith that we haven't read your links. Our citations reflect the majority of scholarship and for some reason, you try to distract away from that with flowery language about 'learning together' etc and now trying to play the WP:NPA card. You think that will work with all the editors that disagree with you? Have you ever questioned that perhaps what you are doing is vandalism? I don't have the time to take you to task but it is interesting watching each editor come here and make the same case - only for you to dismiss their logic and accuse them with bad faith of not reading the citations which you just pulled with poor Tritomex. Reaper7 (talk) 01:58, 2 November 2014 (UTC)
Finally you stated I am wrong about you, need to get to you know etc and that your edit history is there for my viewing pleasure. It seems your psychosis that you are displaying on this page is well represented on your talk page and that of others:
There are more on different pages, but I am not going to load this talk page with them. So why are you causing all this trouble? Who does it suit? Reaper7 (talk) 02:14, 2 November 2014 (UTC)
Points of fact to clarify:
  • Only you and Tritomex have raised concern with the "style and content". Cush's comment was a general comment and as far as I can tell not specifically related to any person's edit here.
  • Both you and Tritomex have refused to comment on the sources I have brought, have failed to WP:AGF, and have both engaged in ad hominem attacks. Instead of (poorly) researching my edit history, had you used the same amount of time to move this discussion forward by reviewing and commenting on the sources I have pointed to, we would have made progress here.
  • Your review of my edit history picked up three examples relating to the same single argument with two editors. The specific issue related to WP:DISCFAIL. We are not going to resolve this question of whether you can work with me by selective reviews of my edit history - either you'll learn to trust me or not.
Please would you give me the benefit of the doubt and try to resolve the content dispute via reasoned discussion?
Maybe we should start from scratch. You wrote "Our citations reflect the majority of scholarship" - please prove this statement.
Oncenawhile (talk) 09:14, 2 November 2014 (UTC)
@Oncenawhile: The article as it is now is a religionist pamphlet fashioned exactly by those editors I have criticized. And if I recall right the dealings I had with you over the years, you are one of them. The whole issue of Philistines is also subject to the current politics and policies of modern Israel that seeks to justify her existence with exclusive rights to the land based on the ahistorical nonsense written down in the Bible/Tanakh, especially with the argument that Arab Palestinians are not descended from Philistines, although they bear the same name. As if that would somehow validate modern Jewish claims. The way the article is written, it implies that Philistines may in fact be a biblical invention altogether, especially with the lede being mostly about the highly subjective if not plainly inaccurate presentation rendered in the Bible (even the Bible admits that the biblical Philistines predate Abraham's arrival). But of course the Bible is not a reliable source for Wikipedia, anyways. The lede and the article should be rearranged to present first the historical and archaeological evidence before descending into any biblical and other mythological references. ♆ CUSH ♆ 15:46, 2 November 2014 (UTC)
Hi Cush, i think there is a case of mistaken identity, as i don't think we have interacted before, and my view on the use of scholarly sources vs religious sources seems to be aligned with yours.
So I have sympathy with your suggestion to put the archaeology first. The problem is the history of the biblical archaeology on this subject, described by a number of the sources I have provided above (and in the article). What they show is that much of the 19th / early 20th century archaeology set out to prove the biblical story of the Philistines. But in recent decades scholars have reevaluated the evidence from the angle of Syro-Palestinian archaeology or Biblical minimalism, i.e. looking at the evidence imagining that they had not known the bible stories. And sadly very little concrete has been found (yet).
To put it another way, what modern scholarship shows is that if the bible was not known, this article would not exist. In archaeology there are only 5 known Peleset references in the contemporary Egyptian archaeological record, 7 known Palastu references in the contemporary Mesopotamian archaeological record, and no equivalent references to Philistines or similar in the contemporary Levantine archaeological record. Unfortunately these 5+7 references tell us very little in the absence of the bible - you can read the primary translations for yourself if you don't believe the modern scholars I referenced.
Other than that there is a "material culture" of pottery along the coastline, which, without the bible, certainly would not have been called Philistine. The question archaeologists debate is whether the "material culture" correctly leads to the conclusion that a "single ethnic group" controlled the region. See for example the quote from Ehrlich in the box earlier in this thread which discussed the "difficulty of associating pots with peoples or ethnic groups".
Oncenawhile (talk) 22:12, 2 November 2014 (UTC)
I dont know where I " engaged in "ad hominem attacks." against anyone. There is a clear consensus among editors that the current lead can not remain. I suggest proposing a new lead based on historic facts and not biblical claims.--Tritomex (talk) 00:54, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Proposed amended lead[edit]

Here is my proposal

Philistines were one of a people of Aegean origin who settled on the southern coast of Palestine in the 12th century. As part of Sea people they attacked Egypt during the later Nineteenth Dynasty. By the early part of the 7th century, Gaza, Ashkelon, Ekron, Ashdod, became vassals of the Assyrian rulers; but during the second half of that century the cities became Egyptian vassals. With the conquests of the Babylonian king Nebuchadrezzar II (605–562) in Syria and Palestine, the Philistine cities became part of the Neo-Babylonian empire. Later, they came under the control of Persia, Greece, and Rome. Most of historic knowledge regarding Philistines dates from Egyptian sources and archaeological excavations carried out at Philistine sites in 20th century, where a distinctive type of pottery, a variety of the 13th-century Mycenaean styles, has been found. Philistines are also known from the Bible, which portrays them at one period of time as among the Kingdom of Israel's most dangerous enemies.

--Tritomex (talk) 01:37, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the proposal.
Ok let's work together on this. Since all four of us on the above thread have different perspectives, so let's try to respect all the views here.
The perspective I hold most strongly is that the lead should reflect the position of modern scholarship, and not over-simplify areas where there is active mainstream debate. It should focus on the highest quality secondary sources, of which there are many in the article and in this thread to choose from. Does anyone have any objections to this concept?
My objection to Tritomex's draft is that in a number of instances it uses wikipedia's neutral voice to discuss topics which are actively debated in mainstream scholarship.
Oncenawhile (talk) 10:41, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
  • Support proposal by Tritomex. There is consensus among the editors who have the same perspective. Lets hope we get a logical article here. Reaper7 (talk) 11:12, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
I must agree with User:Oncenawhile - if there is active mainstream debate, that must be reflected and of course we must use the highest quality sources we can find. I'd like to see some suggestions as to how we can do this. Dougweller (talk) 11:56, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
User:Dougweller Would you help to write a reliable, history based lead? I do not have time unfortunately to engage myself fully on this issue, but based on sources I have checked I noticed a differences between claims made in this article and actual claims from sources itself. The Aegean origin of Philistines and their historicity are mainstream historic opinions.--Tritomex (talk) 07:03, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
That's what I've found. See [4] The Sea Peoples and Their World: A Reassessment edited by Eliezer D. Oren (a specialist who wrote the stuff at the link), [5](Yasur-Landau, already mentioned), [6] Biblical peoples and ethnicity: an archaeological study of Egyptians ... By Ann E. Killebrew (another specialist, also see her The Philistines and Other “Sea Peoples” in Text and Archaeology. Where'd everyone else go?
Killebrew's edited book[7] looks good - she is definitely an expert on the Sea Peoples. Note that she says "

The origins and identification of the Sea Peoples, especially the Philistines, in the archaeological record continue to be matters of considerable debate (see, e.g., Bunimovitz and Yasur-Landau 1996; Killebrew 2005,197-246; 2010; this volume; Woudhuizcn 2006)." on p.8 Dougweller (talk) 16:47, 14 November 2014 (UTC)