Talk:Phoenix (mythology)

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Multiple Languages[edit]

Why are there various translations for Phoenix? This is very unencyclopedic, as encyclopedias are intended to provide information for the topic and not translations. I would not see such a thing in World Book or Britannica. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.79.7.251 (talk) 19:07, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

Geography[edit]

Interesting how this article manages to omit the common fact that one of the biggest cities in the U.S. happens to be named after the Phoenix. Intentional oversight, or just laziness? Starlightmusic 08:00, 23 June 2006 (UTC) (a native Phoenician)

Actually, there's a seperate page abot phoenix, if you do the search in the search window, yiu'll see that you get two options; Phoenix the city, and phoenix mythology. --Tilstad 20:46, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

There are references to San Francisco and Atlanta, but not to Phoenix, Arizona, which is just silly. I live in downtown Phoenix and just got back from a walk with my mom visiting from Tucson. During the walk I showed her some of our urban parks, and the mythological phoenix is symbolized everywhere in beautiful sculptures, paintings, and images intertwined with the city's architecture. The most recent piece of art was a sculpture of the mythological phoenix commissioned by the City of Phoenix in 2006. Cbreitel 13:25, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Maybe Phoenix (the city) is named after the bird's fire, especially in summer Phoenix (AZ) about the heat! Pinkfloydgeek 09:17, 14 September 2007 (MDT)

Lifespan[edit]

"500 or 1461" years? This seems odd, listing two possibilities with one being very specific. porge 11:09, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Herodotus, and most classical authors following him, say 500. One says 1461. Another says 7006. User:Jheald 06:00, 07 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Just wondering if the number 1461 has to do something with the Sothic cycle... can someone add some info on this? Alensha 23:43, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

Instead of "depending on the source," I really think the article should actually delineate who says what. I'd help if I knew which was which and I'm too tired to do the research. -- Hinotori(talk)|(ctrb) 08:48, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Tacitus, in someone's link in the article, gives both 500 and 1461 in his description. -- Pheonix2og


Lifespans[edit]

I have seen several other lifespans for the phoenix. It appears that the ancient writers used a number that seemed appropriate. Pliny the Elder's description, drawn from Manilius, the Senator, says 540 years, and I saw a reference to 12,994 years. I think that a thorough article on the Phoenix would require references to several sources. There may be more external sites that have good information. PLewicke 21:21, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Etymology[edit]

Cut from the article:

The word "Phoenix" is etymologically similar to the word "firebird".

Can anybody give a source for this - or even say which language is being discussed? (Not Greek, I think). User:Jheald 06:00, 07 Jan 2005 (UTC)

This is what "http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=phoenix" says about the word's etymology: "phoenix O.E. and O.Fr. fenix, from M.L. phenix, from Gk. phoinix 'mythical bird,' also 'the date' (fruit and tree), also 'Phoenician,' lit. 'purple-red,' perhaps a foreign word, or from phoinos 'blood-red.' Exact relation and order of the senses in Gk. is unclear."

I was lead to this page by http://www.wollamshram.ca/1001/Vol_1/v1notes.htm#284 (an online edition of Burtons The Thousand Nights and a Night", which claims

We still lack details concerning the Ben or Bennu (nycticorax) of Egypt which with the Article pi gave rise to the Greek "phœnix."

Not having heard this variation before, I find the currently given etymology more plausible. Still, I mention this alternative for the record. 188.100.196.8 (talk) 22:27, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Inspiration?[edit]

Can anyone find the name of the bird in East Africa that the phoenix is supposedly modeled after? The Jade Knight 05:09, 7 February 2006 (UTC)


It appears that one of the earliest versions of the Phoenix was in Egypt where it was the Benu bird. This page http://www.philae.nu/akhet/Benu.html refers to the model being the heron, but I have read that flamingos that nested in volcanic ash where an inspiration for the phoenix. I have also read that the origin was in Mesopotamia.

As for the story of the bird which lays its eggs on East African Salt flats... I think this may be referring to the flamingoes of the Great Rift Valley in Kenya.


There is another source of inspiration; "Scientists often discount Bird of Paradise in Papua New Guinea, but in 1957, however, Australian zoologists discovered that New Guinea tribes had exported bird of paradise plumed skins for centuries and that among those visiting the island, as long ago as 1000 BC, had been traders from Phoenicia in the Middle East. Another significant discovery was that the tribes people used to preserve the skins for export by sealing them in myrrh, molding them into an egg shape,and wrapping this in burned banana skins; a procedure that tallies almost exactly with the mythical bird's reputed treatment of its destroyed nest. Perhaps most significant of all is the fact that the brilliantly colored males of Count Raggi's bird of paradise are adorned with cascades of scarlet feathers that, during their courtship dance, they repeatedly raise aloft, while quivering intensely; a spectacle reminiscent of the phoenix dancing in its burning nest. On reaching the Middle East, descriptions of this spectacle, combined with the egg-like parcels of skins, may well have been sufficient to inspire the myth of the phoenix." - Quoted from Occultopedia's page on the Phoenix. I have been looking for the source of this reference ever since, especially which Australian zoologists. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.244.175.243 (talk) 00:05, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Osamu Tezuka[edit]

In the category of pop culture appearances, may I suggest that Osamu Tezuka manga - I forget its name? I don't know much about it, but it's supposed to be good and it centres on phoenixes. Brutannica 02:28, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Here it is: Phoenix (manga) Brutannica 02:29, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

D'oh! I should do more research before I post these things. It's under the "Artwork" section. Why are comics and anime classified under artwork? That's not all that accurate... Brutannica 02:31, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Repetition[edit]

There is a lot of repetition in this article, it really needs to be cleaned up. E.g. Two sections give explanations of the phoenix in Xmen and Harry Potter. -- Pheonix2og

Yeah, and who the hell cares about harry potter or the xmen? this article should have as basis in mythology, not in children's fantasy stories. if you must mention them, create a section about the phoenix in popular culture. Cwiddofer 04:01, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Revision[edit]

Just to let you all know, I'm planning a MAJOR revision of this ariticle. I will be addressing all the issues stated above...and many more. I've actually gotten some real books out of the library :-) I will be posting my revision on a subpage when it's done...I'd like everyone's approval before I go replacing the current article. I'll give you the link when it's ready. ~ Sarabi1701 02:25, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Hey everyone, I've started the new phoenix page. There's not much to it yet, but you can watch the progress here. Please, don't edit this page. If you have any ideas or comments, post them in the discussion section. Thanks! ~ Sarabi1701 23:10, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Maybe it should note that it is (on) the logo of Coventry University, along with the other university mentions? 81.208.163.26 16:30, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Phœnix[edit]

Shouldn't the bird have the ligature and the city not?Cameron Nedland 21:39, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

No, it should not. I've been researching the phoenix so I can rewrite this article, and nowhere have I seen it written that way...not even in the scholarly works. ~ Sarabi1701 00:15, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
But the article American and British spelling differences seems to disagree.Cameron Nedland 21:18, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Pheonix in jewish mytholegy[edit]

There is also a jewish myth about the Pheonix that says that this is the only animel in the garden of eden that hadn't eaten from the fruit of knowledge when eve offered it and thus he became the gurdian of some things ( I'll have the source on monday)--82.81.21.67 21:36, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Story/Plot Spoiler Warning[edit]

Shouldn't one be added to the Popular Culture section? For example some parts of the Video Game sub-section is giving away story details for most of the listed games.

Actually, I don't think there should be video game details on this page at all. This is not an article for a video game. I'm working on a revision of this article (see section Revision above), and I've already taken care of that. Check it out...I think it came out very well.

Literature[edit]

On the Shakespeare line, there is a reference to "the arabian bird" in "Cymbeline" an obscure Shakespeare play. Not sure exact scene no. but is where Iachimo tries to seduce girl.

Phoenices in popular culture[edit]

The "In popular culture" section is out of hand - if not technically an indiscriminate collection of information, then at least it emulates one well. I think some severe culling is in order, but let's just talk it over first.

For a creature as widely referenced in Western culture as the phoenix is, it appears to be unworkable attempt to list each and every appearance of the word in literature and arts. I propose as a guideline something more or less like

The mere fact that an author or artists mentions or depicts a phoenix, or names a character after the phoenix, is not in and of itself relevant in this article. On the other hand, the article should mention works where the phoenix motif has spawned independent scholarly interest. Of course this must be sourced with references to relevant secondary literature. Also, mentions of the phoenix in texts from before (say) 1500 AD may be notable in themselves as historic sources.

This should cover arts, literature, songs, movies, et cetera. I'm still not sure what to make of all of the video game references; some people might consider it excessive to demand academic sources for them. Opinions? Henning Makholm 00:18, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Change "Phoenix (Mythology)" picture. Reasons 1.) It looks odd when you first look at it. 2.) Viewers will go "huh?" when they look at this page.

Split[edit]

I've split the article for what I hope are obvious reasons - as Henning Makholm says, it was starting to be dominated by a rather random list. I hope no-one has any objections. The rest has been moved to Phoenix in popular culture. Richard of York 21:22, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Phoenix Arizona and the Indians[edit]

The Pheonix Arizona article suggests the city was named after the Egyption bird but I thought that I had heard there was a Native American version that was called a Pheonix in translation. Also are all of the birds listed on Fire bird (mythology) dirivatives of the Egyption bird? --Gbleem 03:21, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Phoenix eggs and wikiproject birds.[edit]

I have two questions (well, more like statements, but...) regarding this article. 1. In Neil Gaiman's Sandman comic, one of the issues (Ramadan, from Fables and Reflections, I added it to the Pop. Culture page, so you can look their if you want) mentions Phoenix eggs coming in opposite pairs. Now I realize that this is probably fiction, but in mythology are their eggs ever mentioned, or does mythology state that are there a set amount of phoenices in existence, and they never go extinct due to their pseudo-immortal qualities, or does it never mention anything of the sort at all?

2. The Purpose of Wikiproject Birds is to create an Ornithological resource. Do Phoenices really fit in that, I think they would better fit in Wikiproject Mythology or Wikiproject Cryptozoology, seeing as they don't really exist. Does anyone else agree?

Description[edit]

I've added most of the top of the page to a description section, the top of the page is meant to be a short summary of the article. User:Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 19:03 (Eastern Standard Time), 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Clarification requested[edit]

The "Phoenix Karatedo Association"... Should we understand this as the Phoenix (Arizona) Karatedo Association? If so, is this important? Alton 19:09, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Wellington Phoenix[edit]

Without a citation to definitively say that Wellington's name came from the ashes of New Zealand Knights, I've added the word "possibly". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.193.237.146 (talk) 00:43, 26 May 2008 (UTC) --208.108.152.62 (talk) 16:16, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Phoenix tears[edit]

From where does come the info in the description about phoenix tear's healing power ? I don't remember hearing about that elsewhere than in Harry Potter so I doubt it should be here. It definitely needs a citation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.10.169.190 (talk) 08:19, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

The healing powers of tears comes purely from the mind of Rowling. I shall delete it. http://bestiary.ca/beasts/beast149.htm contains many quotations of ancient and medieval writers on the phoenix, none of which mention tears or carrying heavy burdens. The carrying of burdens likely comes from the fact that the phoenix carried its dead parent's body to Heliopolis.Chrysologus (talk) 20:04, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

is there a possibilities that the phoenix may live again?

November 23, 2009. i saw a bird like creature. gold color and flying very fast.10mins or more this creature is just rounding and rounding and suddenly disappear. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.211.168.52 (talk) 19:23, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

I hate to ask, but shouldn't there be a REFERENCE to Fawkes, the Phoenix of Harry Potter? People may well come here looking for that, and I argue that modern mythology is still mythology. (Fawkes -- do I have the name right? -- is probably now one of the most familiar examples of phoenix.) s for the tears thing -- that should be covered elsewhere. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Doug123w (talkcontribs) 15:49, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Simurgh?[edit]

Why does the "History" section begin with a reference to the Persian simurgh? The simurgh is not the source of the Phoenix myth, nor are the two even very much alike. If either was the inspiration for the other, logically it would have to be the other way around since Egyptian references to the Phoenix predate Persian references to the simurgh by at least a thousand years. While it makes sense to mention the simurgh in the "Related Usage" section (which really ought to be renamed something like "Similar Mythical Creatures"), it makes no sense at all to talk about the simurgh in the "History" of the Phoenix. I propose that the entire first paragraph be removed. FireHorse (talk) 08:27, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Textiles[edit]

Lampas with phoenix, silk and gold, Iran or Irak, 14th century.

Lampas with phoenix, silk and gold, Iran or Irak, 14th century. Per Honor et Gloria  15:47, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Hoatzin[edit]

The Hoatzin resembles a phoenix quite nicely. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 156.34.189.99 (talk) 14:34, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Black Phoenix[edit]

i've been hearing stuff about a "Black Phoenix" but i can't find any information neither on the internet nor in books... Does anyone know anything about it ?--Fipas11 (talk) 11:37, 28 March 2010 (UTC)


Real Phoenix bird in Holland?[edit]

Hello,

When I was a kid, I have seen a golden bird together with my sister and aunt. So has anyone seen a golden bird with a long tail and golden feathers before? Can anyone tell me what kind of bird this is? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zaraki888 (talkcontribs) 10:27, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Maybe you saw a golden pheasant. Some of them look extremely similar to the description of a phoenix. -- Fyrefly (talk) 14:43, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Links to Disambiguation Pages[edit]

The link to firebird in the first paragraph leads to a disambiguation page. I think the links to the various cultures should direct to pages we have on those culture's version of a fire bird, and the link to firebird be removed. Also, the See Also link to Fire Bird (Mythology) leads to a disambiguation page and should be removed per WP:INTDABLINK JSellers0 (talk) 15:42, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

The roc is not a phoenix[edit]

Why is roc listed in the specific legends section? The only things they have in common are being birds and a very slight connection through Garuda. It certainly isn't a version of the phoenix myth. At best, it should go under a See Also heading, but it needs to be removed from its current location. -- Fyrefly (talk) 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Ok, I guess I'm removing it then. -- Fyrefly (talk) 19:53, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

The Phoenix has paranormal powers — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.241.117.162 (talk) 22:54, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

Title[edit]

Currently, Phoenix is a redirect page to Phoenix (mythology) and to Phoenix, Arizona. I don't have much of a problem with the disambiguation page, but feel that the qualifier "(mythology)" is unnecessary and somewhat backwards, as the city was named after the creature; this is the actual phoenix.24.22.129.215 (talk) 20:27, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

Regarding Hebrew chol[edit]

Recently some information was added regarding Hebrew cho. It lacked the appropriate philological context and simply presented the being as simply another form of the Greek phoenix, free of cultural context. It was therefore reverted. I have, however, since created Chol (bible), which previously redirected to this page. :bloodofox: (talk) 20:33, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

What the 'chol' was is disputed and we cannot present one interpretation as fact. See R. Van den Broek's book [1] where he says "We are therefore of the opinion that the rabbinical interpretation of Job xxix.18 proves only that the rabbinical world knew the Classical phoenix myth and that there is no evidence whatever to support the view that in this text the word hoi must be translated as phoenix. This is the reason why Job xxix.18 will not be referred to again in this book." I've reverted the material at Chol (bible) (which should be Chole (Bible) and again from this article. Dougweller (talk) 09:32, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

Lack of Information[edit]

This article seems to have a severe lack of information on the phoenix. The article barely describes what the phoenix is, the defining aspects of the phoenix, the various mythologies that include the phoenix, the symbolism of the phoenix, etc. And for some reason, someone decided it was appropriate to create a description passage on the "Chol" and paste it at the top of the article above the summary -- that belongs as a portion in a mythology section, not at the top of the article. This article is considerably incomplete and is in desperate need of more accurate and concise information from multiple sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Orcrist90 (talkcontribs) 05:22, 3 October 2013 (UTC)