|WikiProject Romani people|
- 1 Pikey actually means a non-Gypsy traveller
- 2 Pikey and Didikai are not Racist
- 3 2004 rewrite
- 4 Myths
- 5 Norfolk
- 6 Gypsies in North India?
- 7 Redirect
- 8 Piker
- 9 Pikemen
- 10 Pikey as a Verb
- 11 UK slang?
- 12 An 'ironic and subversive' term? I doubt it
- 13 Gillingham fans
- 14 Pikey is actually a word discribing non-Gypsy (as in non-Romani) travellers
- 15 Is "Did" another synonym for Pikey?
- 16 Origin
- 17 Re origin
- 18 Wiktionary
- 19 Pikey Usage
- 20 Contemporary usage - section about "In the late 20th and early 21st centuries"
- 21 Gypsy Lee?
- 22 "Low social class"? Come on!
Pikey actually means a non-Gypsy traveller
Pikey is a word that Romani Gypies use for non-Romani travellers. "They aren't real Romani (Gypsy) they are Pikies". It is also a word they used to use for a member of a Romani family who has committed an offence and the family coucil (called a 'Kris' in Romani and every true Romani family used to have one) has caste them out as punishment. The reason they are called "Pikey" is bacause it is regared amongst the Romani family that they never existed as one of the family hence Pikey = non-Romani traveller.
English pikies usually took to caravan life due to lack of money or being on the run. Most southern English Pikies were poor East Londoners who supplied the thousands of person work force required on the farms of Kent and Sussex that fed London a hundred years ago. in the summer months Londoners would live in caravans, shacks or tents and during the winter months would go back to their run down cheap accomodation on the arseholew of London with all the smog. Many decided not to go back to the smog but to stay out in the countyside doing what ever odd jobs or work (& crime) they could find. In Kents there were many of them and many of the London pikey families were related. In more recent years have been made to live on council owned sites or have settle into council houses. On the council site there are descendents of thes traditional gypsy families (Romani) and some have intermarried with pikey families that it is hard to tell who is true Gypsy and who is Pikey. Kent is full of them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.104.22.168 (talk) 18:25, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
Pikey and Didikai are not Racist
Interesting BBC interview with Gloria Buckley, MBE (a Roma) at <http://www.bbc.co.uk/suffolk/content/articles/2009/06/25/gloria_buckley_lw_2009_feature.shtml>. In this she explains the meaning of the term:
It says "Gloria is very happy to refer to herself as a pikey, something which many people from the non travelling community, myself included initially, may find somewhat uncomfortable, but again she is happy to point out this is just because of a lack of knowledge. "I really don't mind what you call me as long as you call me, because father always used to say you should be proud of it.One day I went home from school and told him that a boy had called me gypsy and he asked me if I had thanked him.When I told him no he said "well next time somebody calls you gypsy look at your mother, look at your things, look at the food at the table and look at the open road. Then there was another word, didicoy (a Romanichal term).Now people see that as an insult and get offended by that, but we didn't because father used to say that it was like decoy, are they gypsies or are they not? So we don't get insulted when anyone calls us didicoy. Then there was the other one, pikey, and that was because we used to gather around the turnpikes.We could either go through or stand there to sell our wares and apply our trade. So we never thought that was anything to get insulted about."
Theres also a video of her on this site, explaining how she set up her legal site for travellers at Sandy Park caravan site in Beck Row near Mildenhall.
Also, from <http://www.larp.com/jahavra/language.html>: 'DIDIKAI' MEANS 'GYPSY FRIEND' - why would a 'blood Roma' be offended by that??? If one appeals to a source cited in a Wiki article (at <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Traveller>( a member of staff at Hull University), "Didicoy" is a Romani term for a child of mixed Romani and non-Romani parentage; as applied to the Travellers, it refers to the fact that they are not "Gypsy" by ethnicity but Irish by blood and lead a similar yet distinct lifestyle". So someone would call a traveller a 'Didicoy' as a means of identifying them ethnically from a true 'blood' Roma - which may be absolutely essential for anyone who is simply trying to respect the differences in their cultures etc, or of course, for one of the many Roma families in the UK, when referring to a member of the travelling community that is not 'true blood Roma'. I don't know if any Roma have been prosecuted for making such an ethnic distinction.
Likewise 'chavey' is actually the name that the Dale Farm Housing Association gave to the youth club set up for their own children on the site in Essex - according to a website penned by Grattan Puxon (Secretary of the Dale Farm Housing Association <http://www.advocacynet.org/resource/1218> ), about the pending eviction there, which reads " In addition, it would mean the closure of the Saint Christopher Centre, headquarters of the 'Dale Farm Chaveys', a youth club that caters for some 100 young people, nurturing their culture, language and history....".— Preceding unsigned comment added by 22.214.171.124 (talk) 21:05, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
have a real problem with this article in it's current format. It amounts to a tabloid article. i.e. "Indicators of Pikeyness". I was tempted to put it on VFD, but I think that it really needs a complete rewrite. Mintguy (T) 08:02, 27 May 2004 (UTC)
- I am an English Romany Gypsy and I have never heard the word "Pikey" used in the sense attributed here to Manfri Fred Wood. Wood claims that Gypsies use the word to refer to individuals cast out of the family by some sort of exotic-sounding council that has not existed for centuries. This is fairytale stuff. "Pikey" is understood by English Gypsy people as an historical term of abuse, directed for most of its history exclusively at them. This therefore means that another meaning of "Pikey" offered here on behalf of English Gypsies, i.e "Pikies" = "not-proper-Gypsies", is also false, since "Pikey" is merely a word non-Gypsies used to refer to actual Gypsies. It was believed in my family to be doubly insulting to us in particular, since one line of our descent carried the surname Pike.
The popular English folk wisdom stating that there are "true Romanies" on the one hand and fake Gypsies, or "Pikies", on the other, is actually nonsense, at least lexically speaking. While Gypsies do often like to point the finger at individuals or families whom they believe to have an inferior ancestry to themselves, they do not do so using this terminology.
On the basis of these and other confusions I would second the commentator below who (6 years ago I see) proposed gutting this article. It's full of unsubstantiated rubbish.
- I agree that this is a terrible article, really snobbish and virtually without any substance. I propose gutting it. Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 11:53, 30 May 2004 (UTC)
- Much better now. I'd question the derivation from "turnpike" - will seek out better etymology - David Gerard 23:00, 30 May 2004 (UTC)
- I've tried to expand upon the definition some, as it currently doesn't tell much to someone unfamiliar with the term. It's immensely difficult to try to write it without either being very non-NPOV or possibly even offensive, though, so I won't take any offence if people think my edits should be reverted, especially if they can do a better job! – OwenBlacker 00:42, Jun 14, 2004 (UTC)
I don't go with the conflation of pikey and chav. Certain aspects characteristic of the pikey may also be found amongst chavs, viz cheap and chunky jewellery, partly disassembled cars - but beside borrowing of the term to mock such aspects among chavs then I believe the disntinction remains126.96.36.199 22:14, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
This article makes the interesting point that "pikey" has essentially become the English word for "trailer trash". Not sure how to integrate it...
==See also== *Trailer trash
Maybe I'm just squeamish, but it looks like an offence waiting to be taken. chocolateboy 14:03, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- No, I think it's entirely right to put that See Also in — that's how I ended up explaining the term to an American friend who's visiting just the other day. I'm gonna do it now. :o) — OwenBlacker 15:16, Jun 30, 2004 (UTC)
Strange to find this... At least in Norfolk (the UK) a pikey is the opposite end of the spectrum, a subculture with general skater/grunge/goth influences. This kind of pikey is known as a townie. Not sure what to do with this info, but an interesting example of geographical linguistics... --Sum0 16:13, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- Townie, Pikey, Chav - look at the ChavScum website and you'll find all are synonymous in that sense. Dialectual difference only... here in Bishop's Stortford, "townie" was common until chav became ubiquitous. AKismet
I second this report - the Bermondsey gypsy families (such as the Brown clan) who added big chunks of the Rom language to Cockney certainly used it that way - they were bombed out in 1940, which is why you had the sudden appearance of the term in the London suburbs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.8.131.52 (talk) 13:54, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
Gypsies in North India?
The article is wrong and is not researched and it is presenting wrong information.
Roms ('Roma' in their own language as 'a' acts as an 's' on the end of the word) were originally from North India but there are no Roms left in India today. There are nomadic groups of people in India as there are in every country of the world but there is nothing to prove any relation with the Romani people of Europe other than they are also Indian. In Southern Asia and also the Middle East there are Ghorbati (sometimes called Domii / Doms or Zotts) who are also nomadic and of Indian origin (as are possibly the Kurds) but they speak a language of a different origin and grammar to the Roms.
The word "Gypsy" is only correctly used in reference to the Roms as it was incorrectly thought by the Europeans that the Roms were Egyptian. Gypsy literally means 'Egyptian'. Gypsy does not means 'travelling people' or any such thing.
Irish travelers who in their own language I think call themselves 'Shelta', are not Gypsy as they are of no relation to the Roms. Irish travelers speak a old backslang gaelic language and they originate from Ireland. Example of the Shelta language is boy is 'cam' from Gaelic 'mac'.
The name pikey is derived from the low army rank of Pikeman. Pikemen were the front line cannon fodder in the battlefield and were usually uneducated toothless simpletons from the countryside. The term Pikey soon became slang for Pikemen. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.108.40.206 (talk) 08:36, 31 October 2006
Pikey as a Verb
ive been trying to post a meaning for it but it keeps getting deleted. im not sure why as im actualy being serious, in no way was i being racist, sexist etc why has it been removed? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arran105 (talk • contribs) 00:41, 3 December 2006
Maybe I just wasn't paying attention, but I don't recall ever hearing this... until I moved to Ireland. (I'm not sure if this goes to it being less common in Scotland, or me not paying attention.) Alai 07:21, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Over 70 years ago, Pikey was an affectionate name given to fellow cotton mill workers in the South. It was not racist or derogatory. Like so many other words and terms, it has been twisted and misinterpreted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pikeyboy (talk • contribs) 13:43, 18 April 2007
Must confess I only came across the term 'Pikey'once and very recently and so have looked up this article to find out more. I was visiting a friend on a travellers' site. He refers to himself as a pikey, to indicate that he has not bought into the economic and political system. In this context, the term carries ironic and subversive power. Maybe it will evolve again, as the term 'Quaker' did, and become a self-designation held with pride ... Gowerwanderer 11:13, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
An 'ironic and subversive' term? I doubt it
Might I ask if your friend was a New (Age) Traveller? New (Age) Travellers are a completely separate group to the long-established hereditary Travelling peoples of Europe, and for the most part have no more than one or two generations of such "culture" behind them. I ask this because the word "Pikey" i not considered accaptable among English Romany Gypsies, unless one is relating a story of racist abuse. It is certainly not used as a badge of honour with some sort of 'ironic and subversive power'. It has a shameful history of usage by, for example, violent police officers and bailiffs kicking camp fires into the faces of small children. Yet another example of scarcely informed contribution to this debate.
Regarding the issue of Gillingham fans being called pikey's by opposition fans (such as Fulham, Millwall etc) - this is a true account of the situation from a Gillingham fan - i.e. me. Maybe somebody decided to remove the comments because I was changing the page without being logged in. I am looking for a suitable reference at the moment so please mark "citation needed" if you feel it necessary rather than remove my changes altogether. If no reference is added after a suitable time then by all means remove the addition. I note that there are only 3 references in the whole article so please be consistent if you want to remove unreferenced information from the page - Slimberly 10:18, 11 April 2008
Pikey is actually a word discribing non-Gypsy (as in non-Romani) travellers
Pikey is actually a word discribing non-Gypsy (as in non-Romani) travellers. Romani gypsies have called non-Romani travellers as pikies for years. "Often they would often say their not gypsy their pikies" when refering to non-Romani travellers of the UK. Romani travellers would call mix-bred / halfcaste Roms as "Didikais" and non-Romani travellers as "Pikeys".
According to Romani author Manfri Frederick Wood's "In the Life of a Romany Gypsy", Pikey is also a term used for Roms expelled from the tribe / family (obviously as they are now consider non-Romani).
Is "Did" another synonym for Pikey?
I have lived in Stanford, Bedfordshire for nearly four years. I hear the word "pikey" used to refer to gypsy families in the area. More often, I hear the word "did" (not sure of spelling) used, by people that have lived in the area for many, many years. I cannot find any written evidence, but has anyone else heard this usage? I get the impression it is being used in the same perjorative sense as "pikey". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.127.116.11 (talk) 11:07, 10 June 2008
- See http://www.amazon.com/Diddakoi-Rumer-Godden/dp/0330398687/ --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 14:52, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
The Oxford English Dictionary traced its use in 1837 by Times, “referring to strangers harvesting in the Isle of Sheppey island”. Later that century it meant a "turnpike traveller" or vagabond. Recently, It’s use was associated with Irish travellers and Roma Gypsies.news.bbc.co.uk, How offensive is the word 'pikey'?mirror.co.uk, Formula 1 commentator in 'pikey' Ofcom probe--Florentino floro (talk) 13:03, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
It is very possible that the term came from this and the Roms (Roma in their own language as 'a' acts like 's' on the end of a word)picked the word up as a word for non-Romani travellers.
Romani gypsies definetely use the word in association with non-Romani travellers. Old traditional Romani families would proud themselves as good people and would often explain to people that the bad travellers were Pikey travelers (non-Romani) and weren't Gypsy (Roms).
The Romani writer Manfri Frederick Wood also writes in his book that Romani Gypsies would refer to Roms caste out the clan as 'Pikies'.
If anyone has ever had the pleasure to meet real Romani Gypies of the UK then the first thing they would have noticed is how clean they are and how clean they keep their homes. By strict tradition they will not even allow pets into the living areas as animals are seen as unclean and must live seperate. They also insist on washing tea towels seperate to clothes (especially under wear as they find the thought of the two being washed together as totally disraceful).
It is from this attitude that Romani Gypsies call non-Romani travelers as dirty pikies. The term has caught on and has spread to mean dirty people.
Again I insist that there are no Gypsies living in India. Roms ('Roma' using their own grammar) originate in Northern India but there is no Gypsies left in India today. The word Gypsy is a term which is short for the word 'Egyptian' as Roms were mistaken by Europeans to be Egyptian due to their brown skin.
This article describes the definitions, origins and usage of a word. I suggest that it be moved to Wiktionary, as Wikipedia is not a dictionary. --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 15:00, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
- Examples of its use have been added with diminishing returns. I have edited accordingly. Marshall46 (talk) 16:27, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
Good work Marshall46. Examples of usage belong in a dictionary. However I don't think the wiktionary people would welcome much of this article. Lets move it over and let them decide how much to keep. --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 10:00, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
- Go ahead, Hroðulf. Wiktionary has, "(UK, pejorative) A working-class (often underclass) person; can vary from specifically Irish Travellers, gypsies, or travellers from any ethnic background, but now increasingly used for any socially undesirable person, with negative connotations of benefit fraud, theft, single-parent families and living on run-down estates." I don't think this wordy article adds anything to that. Marshall46 (talk) 16:01, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
Re common usage. No non-UK person would have a clue what a "traveller" nor "romani" truly was- the European nomad is universally known as a "gypsy" for better or worse. Secondly, in all the UK-english dicionaries I have consulted, the term "pikey" is noted as being in common parlance synonymous with a gypsy. How a tiny minority differentiates people within their minute peer group is immaterial. Thus, we must consider the definition outside of solely a UK (including Ireland) myopic context. I move for "pikey" to remain defined as a gypsy (as used by most English speakers)- perhaps with some discussion if the main editor feels it is relevant.Starstylers (talk) 16:46, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
- Why is 60 million people (the population of the UK and therefore at least the number of people who could use the word in that sense) a 'tiny minority'? Minority yourself. 18.104.22.168 (talk) 16:18, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
Outside "Little England" is 400 million+ English speakers who are unfortunately entertained, on occasion, by British media. Furthermore, of the 60 million British English speakers- what percentage do not correlate Pikey to Gypsy? Answer: a tiny minority.
- To say that this term is used mainly in Ireland, (much less 'the Republic of..) is nonsense. This new edit should be referenced to a Reliable Source or removed. RashersTierney (talk) 17:19, 8 November 2009 (UTC)
Contemporary usage - section about "In the late 20th and early 21st centuries"
Decided to link to Chavs in the section: "In the late 20th and early 21st centuries, the definition became even looser and is sometimes used to refer to a wide section of the (generally urban) underclass of the country"
I had wanted to add at the end "(generally known in the UK as chavs)" but was reverted minutes later with the reason "Not the same thing".
To justify this - I will state my reasoning:
Look up in the article Social structure of the United Kingdom and look at the section "The Underclass" and find quote:
"These people are occasionally stereotyped as "Chavs", rightly or wrongly". The author of this states "Occasionally", but it is a very lazy and a very well used epithet for all ne'er do wells in the media, so it is a cultural thing in the UK at the present time...too many articles to link to but just have a look on Google if you don't believe me!
There are possibly nuances that may be chav and non-chav throughout the underclass, but it's a label that is in almost universal usage, so much as to get a mention in this article - surely? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 22.214.171.124 (talk) 21:22, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
- We are not a reliable source for ourselves, and I note that the proposition is also unsourced in the article you cite. I doubt the equation of "chav" with "pikey" largely because chavs generally have money to spend, but do so lacking taste, and have attitudes to match. I think a reliable source is required to make the comparison, and even then it has to be treated with due caution. Cheers. Rodhullandemu 21:36, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
I'd have to disagree with your assertion that "chavs generally have money to spend", especially as the first paragraph of the WP article of "Chav" states:
Chav (pronounced /ˈtʃæv/ (CHAV)) is a derogatory term used to describe certain young people in the United Kingdom. Also known as a charver in Yorkshire and North East England "chav" is often used to describe aggressive teenagers, of white working class background, who repeatedly engage in anti-social behaviour such as street drinking, drug abuse and rowdiness, or other forms of juvenile delinquency.
Doesn't say anything about them having money to spend - I see you have a point as to the lifestyles of "Chavs" and "Pikeys" being two separate entities - although the differences between them are there, but in the real world - many people in the UK would regard them to be in the similar category (at least in the present). I am pretty sure no scientific study has managed to figure out the exact percentage of people in the UK regard Chavs and Pikeys to be synonymous, this is why I said "generally".
If anyone else wants to add to the debate, with evidence, I'd appreciate it - I wouldn't know where to start personally, not being a major contributor to the project - but I do think things that are true should be in the articles. Don't claim to be superior, but just maybe principled. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.96.36.199 (talk) 21:50, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
- That would be a good thing; my education in social science is limited to my Master's and research in Criminology, so I am not a sociologist. But where principles are concerned, our guiding principle here is finding a reliable source for this proposition, and you will see that I have tagged disputed and unsourced statements in the article you linked to above. Rodhullandemu 21:55, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
OK, this is not going to result in a conflict, just going to leave it open for someone to cite a relevant source then and let it take it's course - just throwing it out there, for someone to finish up.
I can't compete with the intellectual heavyweight of RodHull(RIP)andEmu(what's Emu doing now, I assume he's squandering the inherited empire that Rod left him)... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.8.131.52 (talk) 22:11, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
- You shouldn't confuse my username with anything else. It's a mere alias and not intended to convey any particular value. Rodhullandemu 22:35, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
If you look at the quote at the end of this article:
"The Oxford History of English notes that: "young people who use charver or pikey to identify a contemporary style of dress or general demeanour suggest an aimless "street" lifestyle, unaware of the Romany origin of the first or of connotation with "gypsy" of the second. Pikey, formed from turnpike roads, as along with pikee and piker been used in the South East [sic: of England] especially since the mid-Nineteenth-Century to refer to itinerant people of all kinds and been used by travelling people to refer to those of low caste. Scally a corresponding label originating in the North West of England was taken up by the media and several websites, only to be superseded by chav. A very recent survey has unearthed 127 synonyms, with ned favoured in Scotland, charver in North East England and pikey across the South [of England]."
It does clearly state the idea of a link between "Pikey" and "Chav". I think the change to include a link to chav in the discussed sentence does warrant more thought. Especially as the context of the sentence in question
"In the late 20th and early 21st centuries, the definition became even looser and is sometimes used to refer to a wide section of the (generally urban) underclass of the country"
implies that the definition became looser and that it is used to refer to an outside group. That group, being chavs (as stated in the The Oxford History of English).KlausUK (talk) 21:26, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
Re this quote:
- "Pikey is one of the negative words associated with gypsies: people who fight and steal equals 'pikeys'. It includes fortune-tellers such as the famous Gypsy Rose Lee..."
This suggests a confusion between "Gypsy Rose Lee" the stripper (not associated with gypsies or fortune-telling) and "Gypsy Lee" an actual fortune-teller at the time – see for example . Manytexts (talk) 03:26, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
- I haven't seen the cited source but I assume it's cited correctly. This might be confusion on the part of the author of the cited book, but on the other hand, I don't think "Gypsy Rose Lee" is that uncommon a tradename amongst fortune tellers at UK seaside resorts. However, quotations are rendered verbatim, even if factually incorrect. To avoid any WP:BLP issues, assuming there is still a fortune teller using the name, perhaps the second part of the quotation should be removed since it actually doesn't add anything in particular. Rodhullandemu 03:38, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
Pikey is a pejorative slang term used mainly in the United Kingdom to refer to people of low social class. No it isn't; it refers to travellers, or settled people with a traveller background, and predominantly Irish travellers. It's true that some young people use 'pikey' as a general term of abuse, just as they use 'gay' to mean 'lame' rather than 'homosexual'. This doesn't mean that that's the general usage. --Ef80 (talk) 20:55, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
I would like to add my ten-cents worth to this subject. Incidentally I am a "Gentile" as the travellers call us (A "Gentile" is a person who lives in a bricks and mortar house) I lived in the Vale of Evesham for over ten years so I know the score! Many of the public houses in the area would have signs stating "No Travellers". Allegedly the problem was one of their games "Flash you for the most". The game entailed the competitors pulling out their rolls of money. The person with the biggest roll would win the other people's rolls! As might be imagined this game caused a lot of fights. Of course this was a long time ago when the only real problems were being pestered to have ones driveway tarmacked or being asked to buy lucky heather or clothes pegs.
Forty years down the line things are a bit different and when I was in South Wales I heard about a nasty heist. Allegedly a large lorry with a Hiab arm parked next to the security fence of an Ifor Williams trailer dealers. (The premises had razor wire and CCTV) By using the crane the lorry driver hoisted his kids over the fence. His kids then wheeled the trailers to where the crane could reach them and tied them onto the crane hook. In all twelve trailers were lifted and put onto the lorry. The kids were then lifted out the same way. People surmised that by the next day the trailers would be in Ireland. Of course knowing something and proving it are two completely different matters.
Even in the small town in Cornwall where I now live there is rampant thieving. For example when six hundred imperial gallons of central heating oil gets stolen overnight (weight almost 5000 pounds or over two tons) it is obvious that they didn't use a normal car. The vehicle of choice will be the dreaded 3.5 tonne gross white van which is so popular with that class of people. Such vans can be driven on an ordinary car licence as a Heavy Goods Vehicle licence is not required. Take care! Davey1000 (talk) 14:04, 18 September 2013 (UTC)