Talk:Plzeň

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Name Alternatives[edit]

Several sources (Britannice, Merriam-Webster) list "Pilsen" as an English and German name alternative. I believe they should remain in the article.

Not true. Britannica just says "German Pilsen". Merriam-Webster doesn't describe it, it just has a cross-reference, as it has for "Leningrad" and other former names which are still well known. NoPuzzleStranger 30 June 2005 15:43 (UTC)
The city of Plzen lists "Pilsen" on the English version of its web page. Please stop changing the article simply because of a POV difference.
http://info.plzen-city.cz/article.asp?sec=5&lang=1033
Jbetak 30 June 2005 15:45 (UTC)
Well, if you consider that decisive, I'm pleased that you will at least give up your reverts on České Budějovice. The city of České Budějovice uses "České Budějovice" on the English version of its web page. http://www.c-budejovice.cz/EN/02/History/ NoPuzzleStranger 30 June 2005 15:53 (UTC)
I have just checked that page as well ;-) Still, you have to acknowledge that the changes to the České Budějovice article were initiated by you. The former status quo was obviously supported by a consensus and would be preferable to the current state. Until the question has been resolved. As I have explained before, I have qualms about not paying enough consideration for the rich past of these cities. We could be renaming Prague next - but hey it's just my POV ;-) Jbetak 30 June 2005 16:00 (UTC)

This article is written in English, not Czech. The title should be "Pilsen". --Peter Farago 15:20, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Masterhatch 18:19, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Pilsen was used in all latin writtings that I've saw in abbeys and priories I visited in South Bohemia, but I am interested in Latin only and not in German or Czech so bear with me. IEEE 14:55, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, this article is written in English, not German. ;-) --213.129.141.13 (talk) 00:12, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Move to Pilsen[edit]

Unless someone can come up with a good reason why i shouldn't, I will move this article to its English name (because this is the English section of wikipedia) of Pilsen. Masterhatch 18:20, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Having a look at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English), it is obvious this article should be moved to Pilsen. Masterhatch 19:32, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
You should suggest a move at Wikipedia:Requested moves. Olessi 00:55, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
I agree with renaming. There are many more articles with English versions of names, like Prague (not Praha), Rome (not Roma), Venice (not Venezia). These English versions have long history and abandoning them would be like losing a part of English language heritage. Jan.Kamenicek 14:38, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
The journalistic convention (see examples below) is to use Plzeň in English. English-speakers used to use the German name; now we use the Czech name. valeriet 10:54, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was moved. Jonathunder 23:59, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Requested move (2006)[edit]

Plzeň → Pilsen – Plzeň is the Czech name for the city and Pilsen is the English name. the MoS states that the most common English name be used. Plzeň is definately not the most common English name for that city. (rationale originally posted by User:Masterhatch at Wikipedia:Requested Moves.)

Survey[edit]

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~
  • Oppose. Pilsen is an English name of the beer; but I believe the Czech names of Czech cities have become usage since 1918 - except Prague, of course. Would this apply to Karlovy Vary or Bratislava? Septentrionalis
  • Comment Well, i assume that if Carlsbad and Pressburg are the most common names in English for those cities, i would have to say "yes". Article titles should be in the most common English name (according to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English)) Masterhatch 02:57, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Support. I've heard of Karlsbad but not Karlovy Vary GraemeLeggett 15:56, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
    This survey concerns Plzeň/Pilsen not Karlovy Vary/Karlsbad/Carlsbad. Olessi 16:19, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Support. Pilsen is a well-established English name that can be rendered in English orthography (i.e. does not require diacritics). Robert A.West (Talk) 19:19, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
Comment. The only important thing is whether it is well-established, not whether it requires diacritics (there can always be a redirect omitting the diacrictics). Jan.Kamenicek 15:02, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

*Oppose. Oruj 22:06, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

  • Support The MoS is clear about using the most common English name for article titles, not local names (unless the local name is the most common English name, of course) Masterhatch 02:23, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Support. English usage should always prevail on the English-language Wikipedia. BoojiBoy 02:42, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Support ackoz Flag of the Czech Republic.svg 10:28, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Support Per MoS. Furthermore: the English version of the city's website spells it as "Pilsen" REF: http://info.plzen-city.cz/Default.asp?lang=1033 . ccwaters 11:02, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
Comment: But the English version of the city's website is clearly translated by a Czech, not by a native English speaker. valeriet
  • Oppose. I was going to support but then I noticed that neither Britannica nor Encarta use the proposed name. [1] [2] Haukur 11:46, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Encyclopedia Columbia also does not use the proposed name. Like Appleby, I have not seen any evidence indicating that "Pilsen" is currently used to refer to the city more often than "Plzeň". Olessi 17:25, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Let's not reopen the entire Danzig / Gdansk dispute. A pilsner is a beer. Plzeň is a modern town. Valentinian (talk) 20:36, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Support. This is the English Wikipedia, not the Czech Wikipedia. I am all for the Czechs spelling things in their own language however the heck they want. I am likewise all for us spelling things in our own language the way we commonly do. Ravenswing 20:55, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
Comment: I'm merely saying that this issue looks pretty closely related to a precedent case (see: Talk:WikiProject Cities/Names issues and Talk:Danzig). Valentinian (talk) 10:55, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Support Czech language also has its versions of city names, like Štýrský Hradec, Drážďany or Londýn, so why English should not. They have got long history and are a part of the language heritage. Jan.Kamenicek 14:57, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment Exactly, if the Czechs can use all of these words to describe other languages, we English-speakers can use exonyms to describe Czech places. BoojiBoy 15:12, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment Why should Czech practice have any influence on English practice? Czech is much fonder of translating placenames than English.valeriet 09:22, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
      • comment if that were true, we wouldn't be having this discussion right now. Masterhatch 22:39, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
  • OpposeThe current English convention in journalism (see my examples below) and elsewhere is Plzeň. If we use Pilsen, we risk confusing other journalists as to the convention. Pilsen, as the German name, was used historically, and that should be indicated in brackets as at present.valeriet 09.07, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Support: we should follow our policy. Jonathunder 21:15, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Support, for MoS.--Aldux 21:57, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Discussion[edit]

Add any additional comments

I am open to persuasion. Google tests, however, are unusually misleading here; actual citations of present English usage are wanted. Septentrionalis 14:33, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

The use of Pilsen, which is obviously invariable in nineteenth-century sources, should of course be noted in the article. Septentrionalis 14:35, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
"Pilsen" is used by on the English versions of the city page (which also uses "Plzen") and the University of West Bohemia. I am currently neutral on the matter. Olessi 14:48, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
  • As mentioned above, the English version of the city website was clearly translated by a Czech speaker rather than a native English speaker. Less easy to tell with the university website, but in both cases, 'Pilsen' is likely to have been suggested by Czechs who are unfamiliar with English journalistic and other convention.valeriet 09:45, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

britannica, encarta, & columbia use plzen, with pilsen as alternate name. ahd & mw dictionaries use plzen. reference works like encyclopedias and dictionaries are generally good indications of the most common english usage. plzen is actually slightly more common at google scholar. diacritics are not an issue because many of these references don't use the diacritic & i searched without it. many of the above comments seem to assume that pilsen is the most common, but did i miss the evidence? Appleby 04:22, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

  • "Most common" is, in this context, a red herring. A foreign name, unnatural in English orthography, should be preferred only if there is no reasonably-common English name. "Pilsen" is reasonably-common: that is all I contend is needed to prefer it. Robert A.West (Talk) 18:27, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
    • I should add that part of my argument is that the pronunciation of "Plzen" is not transparent to those who do not already know the subject: one might readily assume that the implied vowel is after the digraph: "Plizenm" but it just looks strange. This is different from, say, "Beijing" vs "Peking". While the latter is more probable as an English place name, the former doesn't look unpronounceable. This sort of thing is not an exact science, but I think "Plzen" lies on the wrong side of the dividing line. Robert A.West (Talk) 18:47, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Many Czech place names aren't kind to the English-speaking tongue (Brno for one) but we manage fine with the Czech rather than the German version. valeriet 09:32, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

all the encyclopedias & dictionaries i looked at are, of course, english reference works. they all use plzen. it seems plzen is the common english name, although i'm open to other evidence. Appleby 18:40, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

  • On the other hand, they do not need to follow Wikipedia policies. For example, Brittanica validly includes snippets of original research. I feel that the spirit of UE is violated when we use names that are impossible in English orthography, provided that some reasonably-natural alternative is available. Then again, I laugh at network anchors when they try to affect an accent when saying names like "Managua" and "Nicaragua." Robert A.West (Talk) 19:09, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Examples of journalistic usage of Plzen:

2nd BBC story is actually a quiz not an news article, prevous BBC usage has included Pilsen but current usage is Plzen ie all Latin characters no diacritics in sight.

It is indeed a quiz - that's why I added it. All the more indication that Plzen is also used in more cultural contexts as well as news stories. You do find some usage of Pilsen on the BBC site - mostly in historical reminiscences about World War II, and in references to the Pilsen Radio Orchestra. valeriet 23:21, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Move to Plzeň[edit]

I contend that some voters above were misled by the false premise that "Plzeň is the Czech name for the city and Pilsen is the English name". In fact Pilsen is the former German name, used locally and internationally when it was part of Austria, but now obsolete. It's true that it sometimes occurs in English, but if that makes it an English name, then Plzeň is also an English name (that's what all English-language encyclopedias use) and then the question is which is more common, and Google shows Plzeň is more common (compare "Pilsen Czech Republic" and "Plzen Czech Republic"). Physicus 00:53, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Read the discussion above - I don't think anyone was misled. "Plzeň" could not be an "English name" because English orthography does not use any Diacritic marks on its letters - it would have to be rendered as "Plzen". GraemeLeggett 13:21, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
English may use diacritics, as you find out, if you look at the List of English words with diacritics. Jan.Kamenicek 21:23, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
The point is that even those loan words are not spelt with diacritics and that with the domination of the keyboard over pen and ink noone even knows how to type a diacritic (they might know where insert symbol is in MS Word) so diacritics are almost completey absent from written English - I've never seen anime written with an accent in the last 18 years. GraemeLeggett 09:28, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
Nothing of this is relevant to proper names. If you don't know how to type Plzeň, you'll just type Plzen. It's still the same name. Physicus 13:17, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
There are two ways of defining "English name". At bottom, "Plzeň" is of course a Czech name - just as "Pilsen" is a German name. There's no third, separate English name. But if any name that is used in English becomes an "English name" then both are English names. And "Plzeň" is the more common one. The presence of diacritics that are not otherwise used in English doesn't disqualify it either in that sense. After all, you could find plenty of small Czech towns which have no other name whatsoever except the Czech name, so you have to use the Czech name in English and that would make it the "English name" in that sense. Physicus 00:34, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was no consensus for move. Joelito (talk) 17:21, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

  • Strongly oppose as premature. Abide by consensus decision; please note that this is change from the vote above. There is no question (see the 1911 Britannica for an example) that Pilsen was once the name used in English; the question is whether English usage has changed. We have decided this; as a member of the minority, I join the majority opinion. Septentrionalis 17:01, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Strongly oppose - we just did this. BoojiBoy 20:45, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Strongly oppose hey, we can't revote on this a mere day after!! give a year or two. Masterhatch 01:43, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

*Support, earlier vote was ill-informed. Oruj 21:05, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

  • Strongly oppose: use English. Thumbelina 17:19, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose. If an English name exists, it should be used. -newkai | talk | contribs 20:14, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
    There is no specifically English name. Either both Plzeň and Pilsen are English names (because both have been used in English), or neither (because by origin they are Czech and German respectively). Physicus 13:17, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Yalta[edit]

I removed the following sentence, as a factual error.

The Yalta Conference placed Czechoslovakia in Soviet sphere of influence and Patton had to withdraw shortly after the armistice.

Reading the Yalta Accords will show that they do not mention Czechoslovakia or any part of it. I suppose there will be a revert war here; but I hope that the copyedit preceeding will be left alone. Septentrionalis 15:05, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Other notes[edit]

  • The advertising for the development of the Škoda works is advertising and crystal-ballery; neither is appropriate here.
  • Portland, Oregon is necessary for disambiguation; see Portland, Maine.
  • If the book printed here deals with the Matter of Troy, the English adjective is Trojan. Septentrionalis 15:05, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Similar case with Poland[edit]

In the Polish material, the issue resulted in a pretty heated arguement. (see: Talk:WikiProject Cities/Names issues and Talk:Danzig), and the result was that the German names is used in some historical contexts, and the native name in modern contexts. In the Polish material, the native name is used everywhere except Warsaw. Encarta sticks to the Czech name as well. [3]. Valentinian (talk) 10:55, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

  • The compromise in Gdansk/Danzig was just that, a compromise to resolve a highly-emotional situation. As such, the decision does not need to be rational, and really doesn't pretend to be. It was just a decision, and we are not obliged to repeat it slavishly. Robert A.West (Talk) 14:53, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
Names on a map is often more than an emotional dispute; it is a very political dispute. On the European mainland, the use of German language forms for East European locations outside of Germany's post-1945 borders is very often - rightly or wrongly - interpreted as support for German expansionism. This issue is - thank God - not at the agenda of the German government, but fear of it rests very deep in the minds of many of Germany's neighbours. I'm well aware that this was not the motivation behind the votes for "Pilsen" cast here, but using German forms for non-German areas is a controversial path to take. Valentinian (talk) 00:36, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
This is an argument for a change of policy. This is not the place for that; try Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (places) or the Village pump. Septentrionalis 20:16, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Most common name used in English[edit]

User:Yup! said in an edit summary, "No one has proved Pilsen is less common than Plzeň in English. The city is used to using the name "Plzeň" on its intl website, and I, as a resident, can tell it's far more known abroad than "Plzeň". (I think he meant "using the name 'Pilsen' on its intl website".)

Re: --Yup! 16:17, 18 July 2006 (UTC) Yes, thanks. I wrote it in hurry and mixed it up completely. This above is the way it should be. On the other hand I'd rather point out in the article, that Pilsen is a German equivalent, that is as common as Plzeň in English. However, Pilsen might be used more broadly in the world referring to the original beer production, that the city is famous for. That's the reason for being in the head of the document, and also why the city is officially using this name. But Pilsen is still only an equivalent, which is a fact to be stressed. There are still many people, that don't like Germans since WW2, when all the cities used to be called in German. That's why I wouldn't like to see German name there.


Well, it is very easy to prove. First, by way of authority: All real English-language encyclopedias not only have their articles at Plzeň, they also do not even mention Pilsen as an alternative English name, only as a German name. To wit:

  • Britannica: "Plzeň, German Pilsen, city, capital of..." [4]
  • Americana: "Plzeň, a city in the Czech Republic, 55 miles (88 km) west-southwest of Prague. Plzeň (German, Pilsen) is the..."
  • Encarta: "Plzen (German Pilsen), city in western Czech Republic, ..." [5]
  • Columbia: "Plzeň, Ger. Pilsen, city..." [6]

Second, by checking actual use through Google. "Plzen Czech Republic" shows 138,000 hits, "Pilsen Czech Republic" only 55,100, a ratio of 5 to 2. (The addition of "Czech Republic" serves two necessary purposes - ensuring the reference is a modern one, not one referring to or dating from Austrian times, and ensuring the reference is in English.)

I don't think your anecdotal knowledge trumps those verifiable facts. Nor does the city's own website; cities are not authorities on what they should be called in foreign languages, and the local people who write those English texts may not be aware of what the most commonly used name is in English. Oruj 23:47, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't mean to sound rude, but the above discussion about the "English" name is simply moronic. Citations to ENGLISH encyclopedias, dictionaries, newspapers, and magazines are completely ignored. Google results, Google scholar results, and appeals to logic and consistency are buried alive, kicking and screaming. To counter the mountain of actual evidence, editors simply opine, nay, DECLARE!, that the most common English term used by the most authoritative English publications is not English, because ... they SAY so. Astounding. Pilsener 00:50, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Google results are not authoritative. You may not sound rude but you do sound a touch hysterical. GraemeLeggett 08:36, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Once again, your majesty conquers mere citations to English encyclopedias, dictionaries, newspapers, and magazines, with nothing but devastating wit and wisdom. I bow before the supreme authority of your voice. Wikipedia bows, nay, the world bows. Pilsener 14:25, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Why are we flying in the face of journalistic convention by using Pilsen? I've checked numerous prominent newspapers (see above) and they all use Plzeň (usually without the diacritic) as their regular way of referring to the city. Supporters of 'Pilsen' haven't provided any evidence to the contrary. valeriet 19:50, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Serpent or whatever[edit]

The Yalta Conference placed Czechoslovakia in Soviet sphere of influence and Patton had to withdraw shortly after the armistice.

Why did you remove the whole sentence? Just change the beginning and it will be ok.

After WW2, Czechoslovakia was placed in Soviet sphere of influence and Patton had to withdraw shortly after the armistice. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Azmoc (talkcontribs)

The present phrasing is:

On May 6, 1945, at the very end of World War II, Pilsen and Western Bohemia were liberated from Nazi Germany by General Patton's 3rd Army; the rest of Czechoslovakia was liberated from German control by the Soviet Red Army. Patton withdrew a few days thereafter, in accordance with the agreements of the Allies.

What false claim or misleading inference do you see here?

On the other hand, the text Azmoc proposes implies that the Anglo-Americans had actively placed Czechoslovakia in the Soviet sphere of influence before the end of the war. This is unsourced; and Western diplomatic histories tend to claim that, until 1947 or 1948, they expected Czechoslovakia to be a true neutral until 1947 or 1948. Septentrionalis 17:08, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, expecting something is one thing. How do you explain that the "soviet part" of germany became communist, actually everything that was "liberated" by the red army became communist? Are you trying to suggest, that all the countries and territories that came under soviet control after ww2 became communist incidentally, and that the soviet communist rule was not imposed on them? Azmoc 07:56, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
  • There is widespread sentiment that the policy of attempting to administer Germany by consensus (and by extension, manage the rest of the Continent so) was a failure - the creation of East Germany was part of that failure; there is disagreement as to how much the Western Allies attempted the policy of consensus, and as to how foreseeable the failure was. George Kennan claims to have foreseen it and protested from within.
  • No, I am not " trying to suggest, that all the countries and territories that came under soviet control after ww2 became communist incidentally, and that the soviet communist rule was not imposed on them". I do not think that; what have I said that could be so interpreted?
    • That Churchill or Truman did any of the imposition is a very debateable claim, however; and OT for this article. Septentrionalis 16:09, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

I didn't say that "Churchil and Truman placed Czechoslovakia somewhere", I said that "Czechoslovakia was placed". I didn't suggest that Anglo-Americans actively placed Czechoslovakia somewhere. It might be true, that they just passively allowed it to be placed into the Soviet sphere of influence. Doesn't matter - my sentence says "was placed", doesn't say by whom. Would you please suggest any other wording that would express that the change from democracy to communism was imposed on Czechoslovakia from outside? Azmoc 18:05, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Unless you are making the (unsourced) claim that it was entirely imposed in May 1945, that would be off topic and extremely misleading, especially before Patton's withdrawal. If you have some sources on the Communist takeover of Pilsen, do by all means put them in. Septentrionalis 22:30, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

West vs. western, faculty vs. school[edit]

The first two comments come from user talk pages: User talk:J76 and User talk:Pabouk. I put them here in order to keep the discussion in one place.

Hello J76, welcome to Wikipedia. Thank you for your contributions. I partially reverted your modification of the Pilsen article. Here are the reasons:

  1. School in that sense is used almost only in North American English. See School#Regional varieties.
  2. Faculty is the right word. See:
  3. Please do not try to rename the University of West Bohemia :-) It is the official English name of the institution.

--pabouk 13:21, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

With regard to your Pilsen update:
1. I do not know where you went to school or whether you studied somewhere abroad however so called "North American English" represents ACADEMIC STANDARD these days so no matter whether you're attorney in Argentina or nurse in Sweden it would be nice to follow it and don't try to figure out some sort of "Czech-Kiwi English". Thus it's not some kind of "merely" argument. Therefore we do not write faculty but school instead.
2. The thing that UWB has arguable uneducated faculty members in its language departments who studied during Husak's era (and that are unable to translate properly name of their own univesity - how embarrassing btw) cannot override the fact that PROPER title is the University of Western Bohemia. Have you ever heard of any university bearing such geographic name ??? It's NORTHWESTERN (actually quite elite institution) or NORTHEASTERN NOT Northwest University...it's ADJECTIVE !!!
The site is aimed for those who do not have a clue where this town or Uni actualy is. I think it's important to realize that.
3. I hope I clarified what was necessary.
Best,
J. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by J76 (talkcontribs) 17:43, 12 March 2007 (UTC).

The Pilsen article is written with American spelling but be aware of the fact that the whole English Wikipedia does not use just single variant of the language. Even many people from non-English speaking countries (like me) contribute to Wikipedia.

The word faculty in the sense "division of university" is described in many (but not all) American dictionaries (see examples below) although it is primarily a British English meaning of the word thus I think that the sense is known in the USA.

  • Encarta World English Dictionary, North American Edition [7]
  • Random House Unabridged Dictionary; The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition [8]
  • Ultralingua Online Dictionary [9]

The word faculty and its variants are used in United Kingdom and most of the continental Europe. I would definitely prefer to use this word in articles about Europe but as the Pilsen article is in the American spelling I would like to know opinions of some native English speakers.

Regarding the "West - Western" dispute:

  1. I strongly insist on my opinion that the official name of the institution should not be changed especially in an encyclopaedia.
  2. The word west is both a noun and an adjective. You can find this fact in every usable dictionary. [10]
  3. You did not use proper examples for your arguing because the examples contain compound directions, they are adjectives just of the word university and not a name of an area like Bohemia.
  4. I think that West Bohemia can refer to the name of former kraj: Západočeský kraj. You can find many examples (in every variant of English) where a cardinal direction is used as an adjective in its basic form. The examples follow.

See also these nice explanations and discussions: [11] [12] [13] I understood that the adjective western is used to describe a not exactly defined area while west is mainly used in names of well defined areas but this could not be considered to be a rule. I think that the University of West Bohemia is a correct name. --pabouk 17:28, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Requested move[edit]

Insert[edit]

I've inserted Fred Klein. [15] On his websites there are some more informations about Plzeň history to be found, in addition to the glimpses into his personal life.

Austerlitz -- 88.75.205.163 (talk) 08:43, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
-- 88.72.21.223 (talk) 21:09, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Deleted, [17]. Hello Yopie, this is not a valid argument for deleting. I am going to reinsert him sooner or later.

Austerlitz -- 88.75.193.30 (talk) 18:43, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
Read WP:N--Yopie 00:04, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Requested move 2011[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Favonian (talk) 21:41, 5 September 2011 (UTC)


PlzeňPlzen – Previous RM discussion indicated a concensus that Plzen is more common than Plzeň, for example at government webspace. I work with (and create) a lot of pages with diacritics, however, in this case, it has already been shown that the version without diacritics is more widespread than that with. Yes, argument about keyboards. Yes, ň isn't an "English letter". But importantly, English usage for Plzen is more widespread than for Plzeň. Google books returns 20,000 without diacritics[18] and 11,000 with.[19] Cloudz679 (talk) 20:56, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

Plzeň Plzen
US .gov sites 199 2940
UK .gov.uk 4 613
Canada .gc.ca 4 232

The sources which cover this city's name are not concerned with how to pronounce it, only how it is written. On the basis of Plzen being the most common name used for the city in the English language, I request editors here to consider the move. Cloudz679 (talk) 20:56, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

  • comment—I spot-checked a couple of results from your books search. Several of the ones from the search for the unadorned form really do use the "ň". [20] and [21] are some examples. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 05:24, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
  • Support. When I filter for English, I get 194 post-1980 Google Book results with the diacritic out of 3,680 examples, or about 5 percent usage for the diacritic. The version with the diacritic appears mainly in guidebooks and phrasebooks. WP:NCGN warns that these are not relevant since they testify to local signage and native speaker usage. Slavic diacritics are never used in English-language newspapers. In short, the overall level of usage must be even lower than this figure would suggest. The title should tell the reader what conventional English-language usage is, not mislead him by providing a form of the name that exists only in some other language. The usual English-language spelling should appear somewhere in the article. The title is the most logical place since a typeable title is easier to search for and to link to. The version of the name with diacritics would still appear boldface in the opening and above the box. Kauffner (talk) 07:43, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
    • There is no issue with linking or searching that I know of. Plzen links to Plzeň and major search engines do do as well. For me, the first Google result for "Plzen" is the Wikipedia article at Plzeň. —  AjaxSmack  20:39, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
What man knowth the ways of Google? But I have noticed problems when a Japanese or Vietnamese diacritic is used exclusively. Kauffner (talk) 13:03, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
For every example you can give with a diacritic, I can easily give ten without, especially if we don't include travel guides. Britannica is a fine source and all, but Wiki's format is quite different. There many excellent sources that do not use Slavic diacritics. Kauffner (talk) 18:35, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
I'm looking forward to your examples, if they include general-purpose encyclopedias, authoritative sources on the English language and others whose house style and choices are actually relevant here. Prolog (talk) 18:38, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
How about the New York Times, Associated Press, Wall Street Journal, USA Today, Washington Post, CNN, CBS News, Time magazine, Deutsche Welle, Reuters, BBC, Times of London, The Guardian, or the The Economist? No reference works geared toward specialists here! This is the big time media, the people who set the pace on this kind of issue. Kauffner (talk) 15:51, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
I think you proved my point there; encyclopedias differ greatly from newspapers and thus do not follow the stylistic practices of this deadline-intensive medium. Good usage is more important than common usage. That's a great thing; not only can we spell correctly, but we don't have to overcapitalize, overuse one-sentence paragraphs, concentrate on recent events, censor words and images, et cetera. Prolog (talk) 16:25, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
Comment for Prolog, that the Merriam Webster links provided, geographical and collegiate dictionary, appear to use the version without diacritcs. As does Academic American encyclopedia. And you may be interested to know that when I use my computer's dictionary on Plzen, it tells me that it's the Czech name for Pilsen. Further, the link for The Encyclopedia Americana you provided shows the viewer that this reference is last century, due to the mention of Czechoslovakia. More, World Encyclopedia of Beer, Encyclopedia of World Geography: Eastern Europe and Collins Dictionary add weight to the original RM, above. Think these things together make it worthwhile to have this discussion, regardless of the outcome. Cloudz679 (talk) 20:10, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
Academic American says "Pilsen: See PLZEŇ" on page 303, M-W Geographical entry is at "Plzeň [...] Pilsen" on p. 938 and M-W Collegiate entry at "Plzeň" on p. 1573. You're right about the Americana entry being outdated, although it is doubtful that the spelling was changed for later editions. Collins is an interesting addition. However, I'm not sure if their online edition renders the háček, as they use Antonín Dvorák for Antonín Dvořák, Tomás Garrigue Masaryk for Tomáš Garrigue Masaryk and Ceské Budejovice for České Budějovice. Prolog (talk) 21:43, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
Policy is to prefer common usage to specialist usage, secondary sources over tertiary, and English usage to non-English. You are turning all of that on it's head. Our format is quite different than that of the printed encyclopedias. Their entry titles were designed to be subheads in a book. Ours must function as the titles of what to many readers will appear as standalone articles. We put the native version of the name boldface in the lead regardless of what the title is, which is again not the same as printed references. Britannica often uses diacritics that appear absolutely nowhere else in published English, so its entry titles are testifying to native speaker usage, equivalent to our boldfaced openings. Kauffner (talk) 02:51, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
  • Oppose per User:Prolog/Diacritical marks as well as general Wikipedia usage (no difference is given in the nomination for this case). If you want to use the English name (Pilsen) as the city itself does, then do so, but this was rejected before (see above). —  AjaxSmack  20:39, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
  • Oppose this proposal like ten other proposal before. The name of the city is Plzeň. Why de-diacriticize this article when we have Plzeň Region, Plzeň-North District and many others? Not to mention that all articles about Czech villages/towns use diacritics. - Darwinek (talk) 20:53, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
  • Oppose Sources that use Plzen are using a misspelling, often for technical and printing reasons. It's not a choice. The name of the city is Plzeň, period. Ease of searchability is irrelevant, we have redirects for that. Puchiko (Talk-email) 21:18, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
Comment These 'technical and printing reasons' form the basis of the written English language. If it is shown, which I believe it already has been, that the norm for English language sources is for the city's name to be spelled without diacritics, I do not see how it is a misspelling. Yes the city's name has a ň, but it's a Czech name. The English name, as reported in the majority of English-language sources, does not use diacritics. Cloudz679 (talk) 22:13, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
The English name of Plzeň is Pilsen (from German). Plzen is like "definetely" or "unneccessary". Both of these have high G-hit numbers, but that doesn't make them correct. ErikHaugen pointed out the problem of measuring with G-hits: results that write Plzeň show up in a "Plzen -Plzeň" search. The examples by Prolog show that the trend-setting sources use ň. Puchiko (Talk-email) 09:07, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
  • Oppose The name Plzeň is used by reliable sources. If someone will find more ghits for "Earth is flat", will we rewrite Globe?--Yopie (talk) 21:33, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
Comment The name Plzen is more common in reliable sources written in English, and since this is English wikipedia, this is the basis for the proposed move. Cloudz679 (talk) 22:13, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
It is common for the name something to be different in one language than it is in another. It is not reasonable to conclude that one language must be right and the other wrong. Kauffner (talk) 01:48, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
No suggestion of anything being wrong, just trying to establish common English usage for English Wikipedia. Cloudz679 (talk) 20:21, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
  • Not by choice but because most English keyboards cannot make n-hacek easily. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 09:56, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
  • Oppose. If the previous RM had a consensus, the article would have been moved. So if it wasn't, something here smells bad. Like a dead horse... --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me 05:35, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
  • Oppose. 'ň' =/= 'n'. We'll no doubt soon be seeing arguments that this name has too few vowels to be an English word. ;-) --Ohconfucius ¡digame! 02:25, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
  • Oppose I agree entirely with Prolog's reasoning. Wikipedia should follow style guides of English reference works, not the inconsistent attitude of news sources. Vejvančický (talk | contribs) 06:22, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
  • Oppose, Kauffner's argument is one to move Roma to Gypsy because that's used "more commonly" by the "sources" he provides. Reference works get things accurate. This ideal is suddenly trumped on Wikipedia when an accurate name looks funny, I wish this nonsense would stop, really. - filelakeshoe 08:28, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Martin Jůza[edit]

A user added him has a notable Plzeň person, another user deleted him as not notable. I have never heard of the fellow, his notability concerns something I have absolutely no knowledge of or interest in, but he does have a non-stub/start Wiki page. I assume that qualifies as notable. Choor monster (talk) 16:18, 28 June 2013 (UTC)