Talk:Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth

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Former featured article Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed.
Main Page trophy This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on January 11, 2005.
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Talk:Gdansk/Vote/discussion

Native names in the infobox[edit]

1) Currently, the native names in the infobox include the Latin name and the Polish name. If one includes only the official languages, then one should also include at least the Ruthenian name, as it was the officially recognised chancery language used in GDL for long time (until 1697?). If one includes all major languages spoken, then Lithuanian naming should also be added. The argument that all that information is available in the "Name" and "Languages" sections is insufficient, as the infobox makes the impression that it was a purely Polish state. An argument that Polish was more "prominent" is insufficient. Was Latin "prominent"? It was used in the diplomatic communication with the West, while Ruthenian was used in the communication with the East.

2) The Polish name used at that time was just "Rzeczpospolita". The addition "Obojga Narodów" is a modern one. If one argues that this is the common Polish usage today, then it is no more "native" but the modern usage in one of the successor states, and then the usage in all successor states must be included (Lithuanian, Belarusian, Ukrainian). --Off-shell (talk) 14:05, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

The naming of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth nobility[edit]

Pamishelisz (talk) 15:53, 19 January 2015 (UTC) First time poster here, apologies if there's already a similar topic somewhere, but I really could not find it. To put it brief, I've noticed in many of the biographical sections of the nobility originating from the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth that the names in italics are often only written in Polish and that Lithuanian translations are missing. In turn, I have tried to insert the proper Lithuanian renditions of the names in italics and my actions have been reverted and I was acused of vandalism by suggesting that back then the Lithuanian language did not exist. We are mainly talking about GDL nobility who lived between late 17th to early 19th century.

I believe that this makes no sense. First and foremost there is ample evidence that the Lithuanian language was used in some GDL regions since the 13th century. Furthermore, The voivodeships with predominant ethnic Lithuanian populations - Vilnius, Trakai and Samogitia - remained almost wholly Lithuanian speaking, both colloquially and by the ruling nobility. Finally, the first Lithuanian book was already published in 1547.

So could please someone shed some light on this, because it totally makes no sense to argue that names should only be written in Polish and not also in Lithuanian, whilst supporting this claim by suggesting that at that time Lithuanian language did not exist.

But most of this nobility wasn't ethnic Lithuanian. With some exceptions (like the Radziwills) they were ethnically Ruthenian or Polish.Volunteer Marek (talk) 16:43, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
Seconded. It's fine to have Lithuanian names for Lithuanian nobility, but szlachta, or Polish-Lithuanian nobility, is a larger concept. See also Polish-Lithuanian identity. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 17:29, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
Thank you, I'll look into it. But what about the accusations of conducting acts of vandalism on the grounds that the Lithuanian language did not exist? Does it have any factual basis at all?Pamishelisz (talk) 17:40, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
Since you didn't link to the relevant WP:DIFF, I don't have time to look where and when you might have accused of that. It's not vandalism, but in the past there were disruptive editors who specialized in inserting/removing Lithuanian/Polish names in various articles. Some old members who remember those trolls may be a bit over-reactive. I'd strongly encourage you to consider doing other types of edits than just inserting/removing Lithuanian/Polish names, if you want to develop good reputation in the community of editors who work on those subjects. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 11:13, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

Broken footnotes[edit]

Please take a look into "References" section. Quite a few broken references. I have never learned this fancy syntax. Whoever knows the ropes, please fix. Staszek Lem (talk) 19:09, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Urbanization[edit]

I understand the suspicion which underlies this edit but please use sources rather than just removing the information on the basis of personal feelings/opinions. 20% urbanization rate for PLC at the beginning of 17th century is not unreasonable. Lithuania, which was the more sparsely populated part, had an urbanization rate of about 15%. "The Crown" was higher so together it could have been 20%. Keep in mind that the PLC underwent a urbanization boom in the 16th century. Of course it went through a process of de-population and de-urbanization starting from about mid 17th century, so that by 1680 or so it was probably less urban than it was at the beginning of 1500's.

50% for Netherlands is also not unreasonable. It's a bit high for Italy except in certain regions (and Italy too underwent de-urbanization during this period).Volunteer Marek (talk) 19:14, 5 May 2015 (UTC)