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Only six countries border South Africa, or if one uses a stretch of the imagination, seven. This passage needs to refer to some source, otherwise, one cannot see exactly which countries he visited. Without that knowledge, my edit would not be sufficient. This needs further attention. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dsnow75 (talk • contribs) 19:31, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
Inconsistent intros among popes who are also saints
If you look at the results of the following search:
Semi-protected edit request on 28 April 2014
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Please change the "Saint Pope" John Paul II to Saint John Paul II. The title Saint Pope is incorrect and not used for other Saints who have been popes. I am a Catholic and Knight of Columbus. I know. LavsNB (talk) 12:49, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
I am a Catholic as well; that doesn't make me any more or less of an authority on the subject than you. "I know it to be true" is textbook original research, which is not allowed on Wikipedia. Wikipedia policies, particularly the Manual of Style as well as any consensus on relevant WikiProjects such as WikiProject Catholicism, govern this matter, and a fellow editor above has indicated that the issue you identify is inconsistently applied across articles on canonized popes. "Pope Saint" appears to be the consensus across the majority of articles I looked at, and it appears that since you made your request "Saint Pope" no longer appears on this article, so I am closing this request as Already done. —KuyaBriBriTalk 23:07, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
What is the status of this article's name now that he's now St. John Paul II? Should it be moved to that name? 220.127.116.11 (talk) 15:09, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
No, see MOS:SAINTS: Articles on popes who are also saints are titled according to the guidance in Popes above, with any necessary redirects from the forms with "Saint". For example, Pope Pius X, with redirects from Pope Saint Pius X and other forms... Also: Saints go by their most common English name, minus the word "Saint"... The article name does not need to be changed. Huon (talk) 17:46, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
I don't normally like getting into edit wars, but there is a persistent attempt being made to change this to "homosexual activists". I think the former term would now be accepted by most people as the more normal term these days. PatGallacher (talk) 21:01, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
"Gay rights" needs to be, at the absolute very least, in quotation marks, and "homosexual activists" should be maintained in the paragraph. Matthewrobertolson (talk) 22:05, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
The Church would never use the phrase "gay rights". Since this is a Catholic article, that fact should be respected. Ideally, "gay rights" would be removed entirely. Matthewrobertolson (talk) 22:06, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
We follow what reliable third-party sources say, not what the Church says. This holds for all articles, "Catholic" or not. Since the activists in question campaign for gay rights, not for homosexuality per se, "gay rights activists" seems the more appropriate term. See for example ABC, which explicitly calls John Paul II's critics "gay rights activists". Huon (talk) 23:14, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
I wholeheartedly agree with Huon. Not only is the attempt to remove "gay rights" smack of POV pushing, but it is simply the better term in decribing the activists. Calling them homosexual activists either implies 1) that they're homosexual (many gay rights advocates are not), or 2, that they're activists for homosexuality in general. Gay rights is more defined description of the activists' goals, eliminates the confusion over whether homosexual is referring to the activists themseleves or their goals, and most importantly, is the better term as reflected in RS.18.104.22.168 (talk) 14:56, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
Pope John Paul II himself was a gay rights activist. He sheltered many priest-pedophiles and homosexuals from persecution. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 22.214.171.124 (talk) 18:29, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
And, why should we respect the wishes of Catholics?! They certainly didn't respect the wishes of all those murdered during the Dirty War in South America or the Troubles in Northern Ireland. I thought this was supposed to be an encyclopedia, not a propaganda wank site for the US Government and its puppet states/religions. You might as well change the domain name to en.wikipedia.gov. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.96.36.199 (talk) 17:54, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
Since there are no specific examples of criticisms of John Paul's stance on Gay Rights in the article and the rest of the section repeats his positions stated earlier in the article, I propose removing this section from the article. If someone can dig up specific, notable criticisms, they should be added in order to make this paragraph relevant to the section. Wkharrisjr (talk) 22:20, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
Support removal. There is no useful information here to be kept. Elizium23 (talk) 23:21, 3 July 2014 (UTC)
Support removal. Ample time has been given for a reliable source to be provided. Since we still don't have a source, the section should be removed. CoffeeGiraffe (talk) 13:29, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
Crozier, Zucchetto, Ring of the Fisherman, Papal shoes and Mitre are attributes of ALL popes, or popes in general. Do we plan to include this item in the infoboxes of all 260-odd articles on popes? If not, why only this particular pope? -- Jack of Oz[pleasantries] 11:18, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
The "attributes" field is intended to explain how saints are portrayed in art, that is, saint symbolism. Now, Saint Peter and Augustine of Hippo have certain pontificalia listed as attributes, but I would not say that all these items should be included for this saint, only the ones that figure significantly in hagiographical representations. It is hard to tell exactly which attributes these are currently, because so many images of John Paul are photographs and portraits from during his lifetime. I would say that his papal ferula figures prominently - I don't know if we should call it that, or the more general crosier. As for the others, generalize them as "papal vestments" and be done. Elizium23 (talk) 12:08, 25 July 2014 (UTC)