Talk:Pornography

Origins of the word πορνογραφία (pornography)

Citation number 3 which indicates the word pornography came into the United States through New Orleans when clicked takes the reader to a site for selling products sponsored by www.bluehost.com, not to podictionary.com as it purports. I do not know (despite reading the wikipedia rules) how to remove the spam citation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Khawk858 (talk • contribs) 22:15, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

A citation is needed for the origin of the Greek word πορνογραφία. The English word is very recent. From where do we get this Greek conjunction? Is it ancient Greek? It does not appear in the Bible. Is it in the Koran? ...other sacred texts? Does it appear in any historical document or literary classic before 1880?
As it stands, it seems misleading. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ClickStudent (talk • contribs) 22:02, 6 April 2011 (UTC) Sorry about forgetting to sign this --ClickStudent (talk) 22:12, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Are you suggesting that Bible or Koran were written in Greek? They were not. 82.141.119.195 (talk) 20:10, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Thank You! That's my point. Sorry I didn't make it clearer
Only the New Testament of the Bible was written in Koine (ancient) Greek. And it does not have the πορνογραφία word. I don't think the conjunction existed in Koine Greek. It doesn't even have any form of "eros", a good valid word from ancient Greece. We get "erotica" from that. Funny that the Bible is considered to be against these things when no form of eros is mentioned anywhere within!?!
So, why is the Greek form of the word, having questionable historical origins, even mentioned in the historical origins section?? I have no idea.
I think the Greek stuff should be removed in its entirety.--ClickStudent (talk) 21:17, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

A lot of words in various languages have been coined using Greek.Just like using Latin.Think "dinosaur".Furthermore Babiniotes dictionary reads that the word "πορνογραφία" in Greek is an antidaneion from French "pornographie";I don't know the proper term in English: a loanword to language A from language B that was coined using words (and rules) of language A.Now what is cool is that the Babiniotes Dictionary traces the etymology of the latter back to Greek : (French) pornographie < pornographe < (μτγν meaning more recent(a bit vague) Greek) πορνογράφος, that is "one who writes about prostitutes".So after two full circles we're back at a vague and unknown time in Greek.But wait, it gets even cooler:Triantaphyllides dictionary states that "pornographos" is of Hellenistic (koine Greek) origin(and therefore traces also back "pornographia" like this: < γαλλ. pornographie < pornograph(e) < ελνστ. πορνογράφ(ος) -ie = -ία).Now if you go to LSG you can see that "pornographos" is indeed of Hellenistic-Koine origin but of the later Greco-Roman period.It's found in the works of this gentleman: Athenaeus.You can read the text and find the word here.So stating "No date is known for the first use of the word in Greek." is more or less accurate cause the issue at hand is rather complex.Perhaps someone could expand the wiki text following the backtracing I've just made?!?!... ;-) ********* Now as far sex and the Bible or the Bible not been written in Greek is concerned, sorry but I will abstain from commenting: I'm not interested at this moment in having a fight/argument...Thanatos|talk 16:19, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Awesome response Thanatos666 !!!
So I seem to understand you saying Greek -> French -> Greek AND English ?
It is also curious that the word existed during the writing of the Christian bible but nobody thought it relevant enough to mention. Instead, there is Mt 5:27-28 that uses a generic word for desire and a generic word for wife (of somebody else). See entries in lust --ClickStudent (talk) 19:35, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

A.Greek -> French -> Greek AND English AND numerous other languages. B.i)What word are you referring to? Cause I'm not certain I get your point.Is it "pornographia"? Ok it seems it's not attested for some reason until indirectly in Athenaeus' pornographos times.Perhaps it hasn't survived in writing.Or perhaps it hadn't been coined yet.Or perhaps it was meaningless and hence useless for the people of the time cause erotic art might not by definition mean prostitution to them.Who knows???? :) An expert historian of pornography is needed for this... ii)I don't get the Mt 5:27-28 or the lust part.This article is about pornography which may perhaps be in extension connotated nowadays to prostitution,at least etymology-wise.It's not about desire or lust per se,and certainly not prostitution or adultery or lust in the Bible.Are you referring to the verb "moicheuein"?I don't speak Hebrew or Aramaic therefore I cannot speak of the relevant connotations and meaning of the relevant Hebrew or Aramaic O.T. words and I'm certainly not a specialist or an expert on the subject but perhaps,if I am undertanding you correctly, you should consider studying or reading about the Septaguint(and also the original Greek N.T.) because it is it that the New Testament quotes(this is anyway what I have read, know and understand);that is the Greek translation of the Old Testament and not the Hebrew-Aramaic text.And that's pretty rational cause the Greek language had long been (and would continue to be for many centuries more) the main language of the eastern mediterranean,being much more than a lingua franca(see in example why the Septaguint came into existence in the first place).In the Greek text the relevant commandments are Ex 20:13 and Deu 5:18 hence I guess the wording and meaning of the passage (starting from and emphasis on "Ἠκούσατε ὅτι ἐρρέθη τοῖς ἀρχαίοις, Οὐ μοιχεύσεις") in Mt 5:27-28.For more and for more precise info ask a real 'n' serious Bible Scholar.Emphasis on scholar intentional cause I certainly don't mean a mere preacher or (tele)evangelist.Now enough of offtopic.If you have any other offtopic questions on or need help in Greek feel free to ask at my personal talkpage.If I can I will be glad to be of assistance...Thanatos|talk 21:24, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Nice find Thanatos. I ran your Perseus link through Google translate and pornography does show up as a word in it:

Theomandron son of Cyrene, whom is in this fisi Theophrastus on Bliss periionta epangellesthai teach happiness erotodidaskale: nothing so any different Amasios of 'Eleans, whom Theophrastus is in this Erotikῷ Around Love gegonenai says quite a terrible sin if it in good and pornography, as a Aristeidin he Pafsian Most importantly tech Nikofani painters, he refers to them as well however was written is in this War on the measures in Tables Sicyon, oh good erudite men friends, its grammar far, [p. 64] does oud egkalyptetai but strongly on the Eyboulos aiei Kerkopon says:

Perhaps by looking at dated references using the word, we can create a timeline of the word to show its observations over time and determine what was indeed the earliest. Bonechamber (talk) 09:40, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Usually at the Perseus Project there is also an English translation available; but unfortunately not this time, not for this work.So for you the non hellenophones, for your convenience and for any future reference :) :[1], [2] P.S.The relevant passage begins at Theomander (or Theomandrus) of Cyrene. Thanatos|talk 10:55, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

• I read somewhere that about 3 centuries ago in England someone wrote a book called "A Pornography or Description of the Prostitutes in the City of Bristol" or similar. At this time, English books were often given a second title in Latin or Greek, and here "A Pornography" is that second title, being a nonce composition in Greek meaning "prostitute writing", "a writing about prostitutes", which is what the book was. As the book described the prostitutes salaciously and not plainly, the word "pornography" from there gradually got its modern meaning. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 15:59, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

Uses

Phornographic images are widely used for a great variety of goals. The reaction to them can seem childish, as many persons wouldn't say what they actually feel about those images when they see it at first, and wouldn't admit of feeling exposed to an aggressive act. Depending on the age and the culture of the person, it can be considered an act of aggression to expose this person to those images, word and material; but this act is still legal, especially if the person has more than 18 years, and the exposure can be used to manipulate this person. This behaviour is not sactioned, in the mentioned case, and is still considered a problem of the person being manipulated. It is used in the coercion of many behaviour considered wrong but not actually punished with detention. This coercion is a substitute for imprisonment, in those cases. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Acamellini (talk • contribs) 15:51, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

would it be possible

is it possible to add a link to http://www.porniki.com - the porn wiki? It's not all that yet, but I am working on it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.53.210.17 (talk) 18:40, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

That would probably count as touting your own website. Wikipedia would rather you not do that here. --Reichax (talk) 00:35, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

There already exist several porn and pornstar wikis, including http://www.wikiporno.org, http://www.adultwikiweb.com, http://www.boobpedia.com, http://everypornstar.com, http://thepornstarwiki.com, and http://www.pornstarwiki.com/ ; I'm noticing http://peachywiki.com/ and http://www.nikkiwiki.com (both of which tried to get linked from Wikipedia) are not in business anymore. Since wikis are self-published sources, these sites are not considered reliable enough for use on Wikipedia. And obviously these are not uniquely valuable resources as Wikipedia:External links recommends.

Anyway, many if not most Wikipedia articles on porn movies and actors already link to Internet Adult Film Database and the Adult Film Database, so I think that void is filled. Good luck with your site. / edg ☺ ☭ 02:26, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

Consuming Porn...really?

When I enjoy art, or watch John Wayne gun down the bad guys in an orgy of revenge, nobody calls that "consuming art" or "consuming movies", crime, murder, etc. Why should the word "consume" be used for porn, ever?
Its probably religious in some fashion. Where did it come from?
And if we really wish to be objective, shouldn't we lose this metaphor? ClickStudent (talk • contribs) 19:34, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

It may seem like an abuse of language, but it is actually quite fitting. It has nothing to do with religion, but rather with the discipline of economics. Economics is the study of production/sale of things and the use/purchase of those things, and the relationship between these two sides of an economy. The representative or "standard" things which were and are studied are physical goods. The use or final purchase of these things was termed "consumption" since they are used up, either nearly immediately (like fresh fruit usually) or at least eventually (like a house, which will eventually burn or fall down, intended or not). Since economics also involves the study of purchasable things apart from physical goods, such as goods like reproducible representations (like pornography or science fiction) and services (like legal advice or a dental check-up), the final purchase of those things (or of a license for their use) is still called consumption, even though in common parlance one is hesitant to say that an indefinitely reproduced print or recording, or a service, can be "consumed". So, to contradict you a little, someone would readily say that you are "consuming" when you watch John Wayne films and that you are a "consumer" of those films, if that someone is an economist. That's why there's nothing non-objective by calling it the "Consumer Price Index" when it includes things like the price of going to the theatre or the doctor.--Atethnekos (talk) 09:40, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Ok, I grant that I'm a consumer...as is everyone in a Capitalist society. That's valid to say in a micro-economics class. A Wiki-entry on porn is not that. To "consume" porn is used even outside business and finance. So I still see several problems with this argument.

1. When I do the laundry, watch tv, or hire a plumber, nobody (except in micro-econ) says I'm consuming those objects. I've never heard that outside class...ever. But I ALWAYS hear "consume" as the transitive verb for porn. I hear it in the most casual contexts. Porn is unique in this respect.
2. Pornographic imagery never gets "used up" in the chemical sense. It is not oxidized, dispelled, erased, or diluted to unusability (like soap). So I can't consume porn as in the casual sense of Mr Smith's monologue in "The Matrix" or as the aliens do in "Independence Day."

So I'm a consumer. Granted. That's great parlance for micro-economics. But I "consume" products and services only in that theoretical sense. Full stop...EXCEPT for porn. Porn is again unique.

Another example (apologies for making a joke at your expense): if I tell people I consume Sani-Flush, they're gonna call 9-1-1. LOL! Try it! Tell your doctor! Can I watch? Pardon the absurdity. But reductio ad absurdum is my point. QED --ClickStudent (talk) 21:13, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

You're perhaps right that the term is overused by many discussing pornography; maybe it's for rhetorical effect, or maybe just sloppy writing. I didn't mean to imply that the term is always well-used when referring to pornography, and I think you may well be on to something, but now this seems too general a discussion for the article talk page. Here in this article, as it is now, the term (base consum-, in "consume" or "consumption" or "consuming") is only used once. It is rightly conjoined with "production" and in a paragraph that is focused on the industry of pornography (id est, economics). If it is great parlance for economics, then it is probably at least not bad parlance here, since the paragraph is about economics. Maybe the terms can link to Production (economics) and Consumption (economics), so that they are cleared up.--Atethnekos (talk) 21:19, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Grins, thanks for doin' my homework for me. lol...I meant to check how many times that metaphor was used. Instead it was just a useless rant. I had expected it was used more. Sorry. (open mouth, spit out foot). --ClickStudent (talk) 17:57, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

How telling that so-and-so objects to the "weighted" term Consume. I don't see him or her objecting to the fact that the number of pro-pornography resources in Further Reading disproportionately outweight the number of resources against the industry and its product, despite the fact that countless, and more far recent, resources exist in that area of research. Is it any wonder that academia rejects Wikipedia as a credible source when it's populated and plagued by such ideologues? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.145.125.74 (talk) 07:12, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

I'll reference some academic work which criticise pornography and its dissemination to help alleviate your concern. --Atethnekos (talk) 20:05, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Should probably also include the "scientific work" of Samuel-Auguste Tissot for balance. Its a great example of how politics and religion got mixed with science in this topic. --ClickStudent (talk) 10:23, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Devil's Advocate: Why don't I see vaginal penetration here?

Okay, this question might seem extremely moronic, but over at the hentai article it seems to be the requirement. I know WP:NOTCENSORED but comparing this page to that one seems to be comparing a well-written, well-discussed article to the reason people hate Wikipedia. --Reichax (talk) 23:11, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Just wanna say it's OK for you to delete this thread in its entirety, but it's unlikely anyone else will do it. 72.228.177.92 (talk) 23:57, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

what do you call it when someone uses non-porn for arousal/ stimulation? is there a wiki article?

Pornography or porn is the explicit portrayal of sexual subject matter for the purposes of sexual arousal and erotic satisfaction.

without being too cute about trying to define 'what is porn?' I want to ask, what about when someone uses images not created primarily for "the purposes of arousal" for arousal/ stimulation? what is that called?

this becomes a question like 'here's a pic of x. what does this person use it for? what purpose was it created or distributed to be used for?' where do I go on wikipedia for this? skakEL 14:40, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

The Humanities or Miscellaneous reference desks would seem an appropriate place for your question. I am nearly certain that there is no particular word for exactly what you are describing. You could generally call any object such as the images you mention, a sexual fetish, though. I think you are quite right to note that your question raises ontological issues concerning artifacts and art (including pornography), and so as to whether such images would be pornography or not would depend on controvertible commitments in these fundamental matters. You can ask similar questions about other artifacts. As a chair is an object for the purpose sitting down, if you sit down on an old tree stump is it therefore a chair? Or does the object have to be fashioned with the intention of using it for sitting? So then, an object which looks exactly like the chair I'm sitting on right now but was fashioned by its quirky builder for the purpose of holding books, it wouldn't be a chair, but it would be a bookcase? Perhaps the best thing to do is just be a touch more verbose and make a distinction and say both: what it was made as; and, what it is used as. In your case then you could say that the images are being used as pornography even though they were not made as pornography -- not too complicated. This article, perhaps smartly, avoids the issue altogether. --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 10:09, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Type

Are striptease/masturbation included as pornography? -- 121.216.40.20 (talk) 07:22, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Since pornography must be representative (i.e., a portrayal), the answer to your question is strictly "no", since neither a striptease nor masturbation is a representation. However, representations of striptease or masturbation (e.g, a video recording of a striptease) could be pornographic if made in such a way.--Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 09:36, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

"various correlations, and correlation does not imply causation." is patronizing and meaningless

Please cut out the part that says "and correlation does not imply causation" - it's simply useless here, and sounds really patronizing. We all know what correlation means. 137.30.122.155 (talk) 05:16, 25 January 2012 (UTC)