Talk:Portland, Oregon/Archive 3

Population Density

"643.9 /mi² - 1,667.8/km²"' Bearing in mind a kilometer is smaller than a mile (c. 5/8th), that's impossible. The other way around, perhaps? 86.0.203.120 13:09, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

I updated the numbers, with the help of a calculator, using the population_total and area_land figures presented. --ScottMainwaring 16:47, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

The population numbers were changed by annon. user at 18:11, July 28, 2006 and are not cited. I think they should be changed back until the change can be verified. Cacophony 18:13, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

I had already done that. Sorry if I didn't make that clear in the edit summary. Katr67 18:20, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

OK, now I'm confused. You're saying we should go with the uncited figure? Katr67 18:22, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

556,370 is the correct figure, and it's cited in footnote 1 (http://www.pdx.edu/media/p/r/prc_2005_Table5_County_Split.xls). That spreadsheet shows this as the 2005 total pop of Portland, including its populations in Multnomah, Clackamas, and Washington counties. Where does the 533,427 figure come from? --ScottMainwaring 19:49, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Undent. That was the figure in the demographics infobox before the anon editor changed it [1]. I assumed it was subtle vandalism since the anon IP had vandalized before, and that 533,427 was the correct figure, which I then put in the main city infobox, because I should pay more attention to what I'm doing. My bad. Katr67 20:21, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Pictures

There needs to be alot more visual imagery in this article. I've been perusing many other city pages, and the sheer starkness of this page is somewhat shocking. (- Simulcra 20:51, 14 July 2006 (UTC))

Misc concerns

Hey! I'd love to see some information in here on the arts scene in Portland. Specifically theatre and dance. So far all of the 'arts' stuff in here seems to be movies and sports teams. =) -- jbailey 19:46, August 3, 2004

Youth / Counter / hipster / punk culture

This page seems to leave out the ever-increasing counter-culture population which has recently surged in Portland. I was wondering if it would really be neccessary to mention such a thing? Any thoughts? The Phantom Trogdor

Which counter-culture have you got in mind?... GTBacchus 06:10, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Well, for instance, there is a large Anarchist population in Portland, not to mention the resurfacing of hippie culture as well. Pretty much all forms of counter culture seem to be moving there. Also, it may be worth mentioning as well the locals hostility toward corporate business, such as the constant ousting of Starbucks in favor of local coffee shops. All in all, the whole city appears to be becoming the bohemian center of the northwest. The Phantom Trogdor

I agree. Although perhaps "counter-culture" would be a bad term. But, I mean, it's what Portland is famous for. It's what people think of when they think of Portland (+ the rain). It deserves coverage. William Gillis 20:11, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

Hey there, I came to this page speficallly looking for information about Portland's Status as an impending 'hipster' epicentre. I am pretty disapointed by the complete lack of any reference to this, or any of the important and famous artists coming out of Portland right now. I mean there's the Decemberists, Miranda July, the Dandy Warhols... That's just off the top of my head. It's gonna be the next Montreal, the next Seattle... Why is there nothing here about that? It would be very helpful to me if there was. Beth Maher 18:05, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

This is a good question, but I also think there is a need to be careful. The key word in the preceding comment is "impending". The nature of encyclopedias, even an up-to-the-minute one like WP, is to report on what has happened, not what will (or might) happen. However, the underlying topic probably needs more attention, and here is a recommendation: PSU has published some excellent statistics about the demographic changes in Portland over the last 10 years. This has mostly been picked up vis-a-vis its impact on school-age children (i.e., the dwindling number of parents of such children in the city). However, the raw demographics by themselves are very interesting, and I think themselves point the to trend you mention.

Tracking the "cultural creatives" / "hipster" thing directly is harder, because it is difficult to point to fact-based arguments (btw, even though I'm way to old to be a "hipster", I completely agree with the underlying point). But additional discussion of some PDX institutions, like PICA/TBA, PNCA, that Creative Conference that goes on every year (can't remember the name) would go some way toward making your point. That might solve the problem. Me, I'm a lazy old fart and can't be bothered to actually do all the work -- so go to it!! -- Gnetwerker 00:24, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

There's far too great a % of space devoted to it, considering how it's actually a relatively small part of the population. I'm planning to add more information about the areas north of Fremont, west of Williams, and east of 60th ave. When I get around to it. ZacharyS 11:39, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

As Portland is pretty much defined by the unusually dominant presence of certain national subcultures, with a constant presence in the self-image presented by the Oregonian, the Tribune, the Mercury, WW and our own damn city council... I think it's a pretty important aspect. I just went ahead and seeded a section on it. Please add! --William Gillis 23:35, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Oh, in case anyone wants to pretend Portland doesn't have one of the largest anarchist communities in the world... check out google trends for anarchist and anarchism —Preceding unsigned comment added by William Gillis (talk • contribs) 17:42, August 27, 2006

The section is basically unsourced, with only one reference -- and that to Google trends, which most definitely cannot be called a Reliable source for the claimed demographic data. Don't write based on personal knowledge, either: Wikipedia policies forbid it. Find some real sources or remove the material. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 04:11, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Including Google trends data is not a source. It is original research, which is not allowed on wikipedia. Then again, one could possibly argue that 95% of this whole 'counter-culture' subsection is 'original research'. It might be a good idea to just scratch this whole section altogether and maybe put a well-referenced sentence or to in the opening paragraph. Dr. Cash 05:58, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

This section is a mass of unsourced opinion. My personal opinion is that it leans toward correctness, but the flowery writing style is out of sync with the rest of the page and with encyclopedic style, and it is completely unsourced. The "Keep Portland Weird" sentence was nice, except it appears to be complete myth[2]. I have restrained myself for the moment, because the editor obviously spent quite a bit of time on it, but my strong temptation is to just remove it. -- Gnetwerker 00:05, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

The fundamental problem here is that Portland does have a popular perception along these terms and the city's entry is unquestionably lacking without mention of them. Anarchist populations don't have much research at all, but Portland gets a lot of recognization abroad as an anarchist haven in the same intensity as Eugene or Vermont. Subcultural trends don't get much official documentation, but their appearence can still be widely visible. The Suicide Girls entry, for example, opens with an extended quote on Portland's unique subcultural intermixing. It seems weird that the city's entry itself would have no mention.--24.21.85.144 20:20, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

The new section is certainly lacking and the text is not exactly pristine, but its general material sorely needs coverage in the greater article. Whatever the form. Perhaps a splitting? New expansion on the city's politics with some small mention of the political distribution and presence of protest culture, anarchism and the effects of Oregon's republican's rural libertarian bent. Another one on the roots of portland's 'counter-cultural' image. Seperately approached they'd be much easier to break down and source. There's a distinct lack of even the remotest cultural and political coverage in the entire article. The history section makes absolutely no mention of Portland's mid-century fame as a "sin city"! I simply want to get some improvements going.--William Gillis 20:43, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree it should be mentioned, but we need to find some (real) sources. Surely Willy Week has some? -- Gnetwerker 20:44, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't see any reason for the section at all. At most, a single sentence or more aptly, a mention under arts. Every major city has counter-cultural pockets. Do you really think Portland is strikingly countercultural next to, say, San Francisco, Seattle, Berkeley, Austin, Boston, New York, Ann Arbor, etc. etc. etc.? I don't. The user pushing this section most dramatically says above " Portland is pretty much defined by the unusually dominant presence of certain national subcultures," which is absurd and reveals the STRONG POV that is underlying this section. Msalt 17:28, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

As Portland is currently actively courting and attracting those elements, while San Fransisco, New York, Ann Arbor... etc. are seeing something of an exodus. The Village Voice keeps on snidely caricaturing Portland as the great hipster mecca. And the last decade has seen the city government's open and aggressive artist/thinker/rebel self-branding attempt to suck the rest of the West Coast dry. Real Washingtonian musical artists keep relocating to get closer to the Portland image. Portlanders keep making a deal out of it, and thus it is a deal. The entry on San Fran is going to talk about GLBTs and artists. The entry on Ann Arbor is going to mention the potheads. Portland's should mention the anarchists, the hipsters and all the weird whatevers it keeps on growing inbetween.--141.140.154.159 04:03, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't know where you are getting all of this stuff -- "actively courting and attracting those elements"... "suck the rest of the West Coast dry", etc. It seems to really bother you that there are fashionable people in the Portland area, and I'm sorry for your pain, but this is completely unsourced, very arguable at best, and clearly NOT a NPOV. All we have is the word of William Gillis and unsigned writer 141.140.154.159, who sounds a lot like William Gillis. I don't know the protocol here, but unless someone gives me a good reason otherwise, I'm planning to delete the entire section, and substitute a quick line under arts about the low cost of living attracting a variety of artists.Msalt 07:55, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Since nobody mentioned it, and because I consider it to be a part of the "counter-culture" of Portland, I posted a remark about the Strip Club scene, but I posted it under attractions. I can't recal how many drunken tourests asked me, "Hey--you, where's a good strippers bars?" And I've pointed in six different directions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.54.8.45 (talk • contribs) 2006-09-10 12:50:16 (PDT)

Google shows less than 20 "strip clubs" in the Portland metro area—a little over half are within Portland city limits. Compare that with Detroit (Michigan), Chicago or New York City: all have more than that in the central business district alone. Even in comparisons with Oakland (Calfornia), Salt Lake City, and Boise, Portland doesn't seem to be outside the norm. Is a strip club associated with counterculture? — EncMstr 20:15, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Are you from Portland? It's something we're very proud of, google "most amount of strip clubs per capita". I don't know where the statistic came from, but Portlanders claim the title proudly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by The pathogen (talk • contribs) 19:41, 10 September 2006 (PDT)

Yep, I've lived here almost all my life. I don't know anyone who is proud of their strip clubs. They seem to be respected on par with McDonald's: they're there and they're a fact of life, but few people are a customer (or will admit to it).

The google search you suggest has (in the top five hits) one which says the Kansas/Texas corridor has the greatest concentration of strip clubs, and another which says Atlanta is the winner. Of the two which agree with you, one is a discussion forum where several Portlanders agree with you. The other is much more reputable, though neither of these provide make it easy to track down the source of the statistic. The fifth hit is a rare example of Google dropping the ball—that article has absolutely nothing to do with strip clubs. — EncMstr 06:52, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

This is a very silly argument. Portland DOES in fact have more than its share of strip joints, on the word of noted authority (blue comic) Doug Stanhope, the former host of "Girls Gone Wild" and "The Man Show", who avers that Portland's are the best in the country, especially Mary's Club, because you can drink hard liquor AND get full nudity at the same time. In other words, we probably have about the same number of clubs, but they are more explicit and/or allow more drinking. This is apparently rare, and is a result of Oregon's constitution, which has an explicit right to privacy. Some people are proud, most are not. Duh.

The big question is, so what? That hardly counts as a counterculture, any more than the greater availability of heavy weapons in Southern gun shops constitutes a counterculture. Msalt 21:45, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

The comment above contains a misconception about Oregon's constitution: it does not contain any explicit "right to privacy" -- it contains an explicit right to free speech that the Oregon state Supreme Court has ruled prohibits any regulation based on content that does not cause actual harm[3]. This has the effect of distinguishing Oregon from states with free speech rights only protected by the U.S. Constitution, which the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled does not protect "obscenity". An instructive case in U.S. federalism and the courts. -- Gnetwerker 23:42, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

That para was completely bogus. For one thing, "Oregon's low unemployment rates"! Get a grip -- Oregon and Washington had the two highest unemployment rates in the country for much of the last few years. The whole thing is unsourced, and much is just wrong. Anarchists are one element of the PDX counter-culture, but it is really much more music-oriented than political, and when it is political, its mor eenvironmental and anti-war than anarchy. I tried to rewrite, but it couldn't be done. Sorry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by BurningCandy (talk • contribs)

I agree with you to some extent, but I feel it's necessary to at least have info on the Indie Music scene, and to a lesser extent, politics. The music scene would be more important though, because sometime last year (2005), Yahoo's main page ran a news story on it. It's apparently rather large now, and they interviewed some of the musicians, ie The Decemberists. Um, I believe Yahoo said it was becoming the Indie capitol of the USA, but I can't remember it fully, nor can I find on the Net.

Thank you, much needed deletion. As for music, hey I'm a huge fan of the Shins and Decemberists myself, and yes PitchFork loves the Thermals, but I don't think it's enclyclopedia-worthy to note every time a city has a hot rock band. It's not like Portland is New Orleans, Nashville or Memphis, cities with long term, historically significant music scenes. 15 years ago Seattle was far hotter than Portland is now and even that would be a marginal point to mention. Pop music has fads and trends. Msalt 21:35, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I too think the deletion was probably a good idea, but it seems there is plenty of fodder for a "Portland is different" section, for example: 1) Portland pulls out of the Joint Terrorism Task Force FBI thing; 2) Portland's demographics (get the numbers at the PSU website, which has a big study) is skewing increasingly toward "young cultural creatives"; 3) PICA's TBA festival just finished with (I hear) record crowds for some quite outre work; 4) Portland seems to support an apparently infinite number of music joints; 5) "Portland Indymedia" seems to be one of the more vibrant of that ilk of so-called "independent online media" (not sure how to measure or cite this). Someone more familiar with the scene should write it, and we can stop the bickering (above) about strip clubs. -- Gnetwerker 23:48, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Hey folks. I recently went to a bit of effor adding references to Portland's youth culture (I live in Melbourne Australia, but visited Portland (and the US) specifically for the youth reputation the city has - kind of SF in the 60s, Seattle in the 90s, and Portland right now.

References to strip joint, youth culture, and the 'Portland Fucking Oregon' nickname were removed and listed as vandalism. Upon re-adding them, they were removed again with references uncited. Does 'Puddletown' need a ref, and should it be deleted? I certainly heard 'Portland Fucking Oregon' a lot more than I heard 'Puddletown'.

Regardless, I've now referenced the strip joints claim using both the Mercury and Willamette Weekly as references, and linked to some of the major contributors to modern cultural movements that have come from the area.

Could I please had some support, in the form of more references and referenced additions? It's really difficult to read an article about a city I love when information about everything I love about it has been described as vandalism and removed.

This is somewhat related, but I felt it necessary to add some context to the artists-at-the-top-of-their-fields thing by making it it more than about music. But I think something needs to be removed from the list to keep it concise. Gus Van Sant and Matt Groening are two examples of the kind of artistic culture that's grown out of Portland that aren't music-related, and I also added Elliott Smith, who I feel is probably a better representation of Portland's musical impact on the world than the Dandy Warhols due to his higher regard and influence among fellow musicians (although one could argue that the Warhols had bigger success abroad). If we want to go with something more current that's currently breaking on the national stage, we could also consider The Decemberists. I also think that perhaps up-top isn't the best spot for this section of the article; I think we can intro it up top but should put it downpage with the rest of the article. - Stick Fig 08:05, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Could it be maybe whorth mentioning that it was ranked by PETA as the most vegetarian-friendly city in the US? It says a lot. http://www.goveg.com/f-vegcities-portland.asp Chinablasts 00:28, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

"Willamatte Week, a Major Alternative Weekly?"

As a resident of Portland, Oregon I would not concider the Willamatte Week to be a major alternative weekly. This title should go to the Mercury, a much more astute and highly circulated alternative weekly, on all things non-kitsch. The "Willy Week" is read and run by geriatrics, who fail to meet high cultural commentary standards demanded by the Portland, Oregon aesthetic. - c of cascadia 07:29, December 7, 2005

It might not meet your (sic) "standerds", but as an "alternative" to the Oregonian -- that is, a newspaper that does journalism and plays a role in Portland politics, it is the only show in town. If by "alternative" you mean that it addresses solely or primarily the concerns of a particular demographic group (e.g. non-"geriatrics"), then you may have a point, but being a demi-geriatric myself, I think that the WW and the Portland Tribune are the only "alternative" papers that can be called "major". From both a circulation and influence perspective, the Mercury, along with Just Out and who knows how many others, are clearly secondary. - Gnetwerker 23:03, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

With a circulation of 397,000 you certainly can't be doubting the major part of "major alternative weekly". That is quite a bit more than the 40,000 of the Mercury. The alternative weekly article says: Their focus remains on arts and entertainment and social and political reportage. Eschewing comprehensive coverage of general news, the typical alternative weekly's content is dominated by opinionated reviews, investigations of topics mainstream media won't get involved in, features and columns. I think that pretty much describes every issue of the WW that I've ever read. So basically your only point is that their target audience is not the same as the Mercury's? Cacophony 08:12, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

"a Major Alternative Weekly" is beyond conclusionary, it's basically an advertising slogan for Willamette Week. It's simply a factual error to say that the Mercury does not present political material; recently they broke the story of illegally paid petition collectors, for example. Alternative papers by definition are not as large, and tend to value content over circulation, so quoting circulation statistics proves nothing. By that standard, the Oregonian is the only major and all of the alternatives are minor). I am going to edit the page with less triumphant (more descriptive and neutral) language. -Msalt 23:08, 3 August 2006 (UTC

Beer

The anon edit "portland is the largest consumer of Pabst Blue Ribbon", is probably true -- I recall seeing it in the paper. However six months or a year from now it may no longer be true, and in any case someone is going to complain that it is not Verifiable, so it would be good if we could get a citation. I'm not removing it, but maybe the anon can supply a citation and even put the whole thing into Portland's beer context. (FYI - last weeks New York Times had a big article on Portland brewpubs with lots of useful statistics.) -- Gnetwerker 07:02, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

because of the tiered distribution system, the owners of PBR probably have very good statistics about this. Of course, it would be better to have more about the history of the craftbrew movement in the city and state rather than the fact that our hipsters are most succeptable to marketing... Philvarner 17:19, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

this would also need some qualifying words, like "largest consumer per capita in a city over size x". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Philvarner (talk • contribs) 17:21, 14 February 2007 (UTC).

Education

Split Education? The article is getting big again. I propose to summarize and split off the "education" section. Comments? -- Gnetwerker 20:42, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

OSHU

They are building a tram to run from OSHU down to south waterfront were they are building what looks like 3 buildings. One of them is suppose to be "super green" building. "Combined, the elements appear to make the new OHSU building among the most environmentally friendly buildings in the nation, and probably the most eco-friendly biotech building in the world." Here's a article about it. I don't know how to add stuff to articles yet, but if anyone is up to it, I think it would be good. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jess523s (talk • contribs) .

Umm, I beleive the proper acronym is "OHSU" for "Oregon Health Sciences University". --StuffOfInterest 03:08, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

After the merger with the Oregon Graduate Institute, I think OHSU now stands for "Oregon Health & Science University" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Scottrainey (talk • contribs) 12:44, February 2, 2006

Colleges and Universities

"The undergraduate program self defined as 'University Studies' does not allow for the various kinds of learning styles that progressive education has as the core of it's [sic] value." This seems like a POV. Shouldn't it be deleted? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.131.216.45 (talk • contribs) 23:23, May 27, 2006

• Schools of Art and Food is really awkward. Who calls a culinary school a "school of food"? I'm changing it. Also, Willamette U. is most certainly not in Portland. It isn't even in the Portland metro area. It's in Salem. I'm deleting it. -little otik 04:00, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Education POV text removed

The following text is argumentative, very POV, and unsupported. Many would add that it is wrong, but we don't need to decide that to see it as not belonging in this article. It certainly presents a false set of choices; couldn't educational reform AND increasing budget spending happen at the same time?

"Portland Public Schools are also known for their high ratio of drop-outs, as well as their low standardized test scores. Many feel an educational reform is necessary, rather than increasing the budget spending." --Msalt 23:26, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

"Ethically balanced" high schools?

It's true that Jefferson High has the highest concentration of black students in the Portland Public School District, but as this article from the Willamette Week reports, Jefferson is still better off than other high schools (specifically Roosevelt) in the district. Perhaps some mention should be made of that? I am Girl 22:39, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

"Quadrants"

Can someone actually attest (cite) that the various areas of Portland are actually denoted "Quadrants?" Simulcra 17:56, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

A Lewis and Clark College page agrees. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 18:08, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, the issue is that there are five "quadrants" listed for Portland, whereas the info in the Lewis/Clark College page list only four. -- Simulcra 11:20, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Oh! A cursory web search of "portland fifth quadrant" seems to indicate that the "fifth quadrant" is more of a nickname for north Portland than anything "official". It's hard to tell how much currency it actually has as a nickname. I'd have to guess that splitting out North Portland into its own subsection is valuable, but I think we may be getting too cute with this "five quatrants" buisiness; I don't know. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 16:09, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

What makes an "official" quadrant (other than being 1/4 of a whole)? If I refer to a location with a SE street address, it is in "South East." If I refer to a location with an NE address, it is in "North East." If I refer to a location with an N address, it's definitely in "North Portland." Point being that North is a very real place, with very real North street numbers... if the "quadrants" are defined by street prefixes, then North is a quadrant. If this is not the case, then what defines a quadrant, as applied to Portland? Regardless, "North" is commonly used to refer to the collection of neighborhoods which have N addresses. The City of Portland uses it this way. If there is an official definition of portland's quadrants (perhaps circa the great renumbering), it should certainly be referenced here, because I'm unclear on what government body has decreed that there be 4 quadrants in P-town. 65.243.175.114 19:36, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps, since there really is N, NE,NW, SE and SW (five sectors in all), we should replace all mentions of "quadrant" with what each one really is - a "quinquant." See "quinqu-" in wiktionary. BlackberryLaw 07:13, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I am a tiny bit concerned about the way some of the wording is for which neighborhoods "make up" the five "quadrants". That is to say, the quandrants are divided pretty cleanly along streets, whereas the neighborhoods are not. I have only cleaned up (in a minimal way) North Portland in this regard. For example, neither Boise nor Eliot neighborhoods were listed as part of North Portland, when in fact the bulk of them both lie within N. Portland. In fact, many neighborhoods cross the boundaries of the quadrants. On a semi-related note, some wording is such to imply that the listed neighborhoods are the only ones in those quadrants (e.g. "is composed of"), as if the list is comprehensive. The list for North Portland (which also was redundant with the first paragraph!) was not comprehensive and left off such neighborhoods as Columbia. Just my 2 cents on some stuff to keep an eye out for. Jon Lon Sito 09:57, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

I think it would be wise to conform to the Office of Neighborhood Involvement definitions of the 95 officially-recognized neighborhoods of Portland. Along these lines, I think what's needed is a Neighborhoods of Portland, Oregon article that discusses ONI and provides comprehensive coverage of these neighborhoods, allowing this main Portland page to cover only the most noteworthy ones. --ScottMainwaring 05:01, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I've discovered that not only don't all neighborhoods lie within a single "quadrant", but at least one (Bridlemile) isn't even entirely within the City of Portland itself, instead including a large portion beyond city limits in unincorporated Multnomah County. Confusing and arbitrary! --ScottMainwaring 04:53, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Check out Seattle neighborhoods for what might be a good starting point for your proposed article, Scott.. --Lukobe 17:52, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Gay "District"?

The article notes that Portland's Gay District is centered in the SW quadrant one block south of Burnside on Stark Street. The gay population in Portland can tell you, there's no "gay district" in Portland. The bars and other gay establishments are spread out all over the city. The information noted in the article is incorrect, probably outdated. --12.119.210.194 22:31, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

I would agree that there isn't a gay "district". However, in the 1970s when the gay community was more underground the Fish Grotto emerged as one of the prime gay hangouts, and (perhaps because of that, perhaps for other reasons) that area around SW Ash or whatever (the street in front of Jake's) has developed a cluster of gay bars, a gay strip club, and of course the infamous Eagle. What is perhaps most remarkable is that they have, by and large, survived the gentrifying of the neighbouring Pearl district. I'm not taking a position one way or the other on the text, just adding some historical data. -- Gnetwerker 18:12, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

This area (near Jakes and the Portland Bathhouse) is refered to as the "Gay Triangle". Cacophony 08:39, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Regardless of the reference, I don't think it's currently an accurate statement. Most likely the Cacaphony notation is based on similar outdated assumptions.--Eddylyons 19:46, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Looking at the article you reference, it seems that there are other gay areas of town, which wouldn't necessarily make the Burnside Triangle the center of them all, but perhaps the earliest of them.

The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. The Portland Mercury, in a 2005 article, also speaks of Vaseline Alley/Burnside Triangle as a highly gay area. Please see Wikipedia:Verifiability for more information. Cacophony 00:07, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

That may be the threshold, but surely not everything that is verifiable needs to be added to Wikipedia if its accuracy is questioned. --Lukobe 00:28, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

"Vaseline Alley"? That's hardly an accepted term, especially if your source is a free community publication like the Portland Mercury. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Eddylyons (talk • contribs) 13:45, December 1, 2006

Sure you won't find the name on any street signs and the Chamber of Commerce probably dosen't use the term, but that doesn't mean that it isn't widely used. How about The Oregonian (circulation 350,000) [4][5], Willamette Week (circulation 423,000) [6][7], Barfly Magazine (circulation 15,000) [8], and again, The Portland Mercury (circulation 42,000) [9][10]. If you would like more references, I could easily find more. Cacophony 05:10, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

It seems obvious that that area with a bath house and several gay bars all within a block, and an area that has been like that for some time, is as much a gay area as Chinatown is a Chinese area. Speaking of which, there are also several gay clubs around Chinatown. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.171.255.61 (talk • contribs) 15:42, January 17, 2007

Sports

"The NBA Portland Trail Blazers are the region's only professional major league team, playing basketball in the Rose Garden Arena." What is meant by "region" here? If "region" means the Northwest, as it does elsewhere in the article, the statement is false, as Seattle has three professional "major league" teams (i.e., Sonics, Mariners, and Seahawks). I'm writing a completely new article for the sports section. Ok, not completely most of the information will stay but it will look nicer from my point of view. BryanAtkinson 08:03, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Mayor's Political Affiliation

Unless the mayor's office has become a partisan political post, the (D) next to Tom Potter's name should be changed to (N-P).

Good Article nomination has failed

The Good article nomination for Portland, Oregon/Archive 3 has failed, for the following reason:

Has 23 'citation needed' facts (all of which are needed). Also does not have an economy section as suggested during Peer Review. And finally, there are way too many external links in the Education section. Failed by (2a) and (3) from the good article criteria. Chuck^(척뉴넘) 07:08, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Sister cities

I can't find San Pedro Sula, Honduras on the Sister Cities International page or on Google. Is someone able to verify that it is indeed a sister city of Portland? Also, though Bologna, Italy, is listed in the SCI page it isn't on Portland's sister city page. Katr67 19:01, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Keizer

Did anyone notice that in the infobox at the bottom of the page it has a list of Major Cities. When did Keizer get added? I have never ven heard of that town/city! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.216.244.172 (talk • contribs) 01:19, June 19, 2006 (UTC).

I've never been to northern Oregon, so I may be wrong, but Keizer, as I understand, is a twin city to Salem, which is only, I think, 30 miles downstate from Portland. Neither are that big, but there is (was?) a baseball team down there, I think, called the Salem-Keizer Volcanoes. --Coryma 01:51, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Not that big? Actually, Salem is now considered the second largest city in Oregon, and Keizer is roughly 14th. Yes, Salem-Keizer together are considered one metro area, sharing a school district, transportation district, etc. Keizer was incorporated in 1982. It's about 45 miles south of Portland. The Salem-Keizer Volcanoes are still a going concern. Since the above comments, however, the {{Oregon}} infobox has had Keizer removed by the same anon user, so we might want to revisit that change. (BTW, sorry, this talk would be better placed on the Oregon template's talk page--I'm going to copy it there.) Katr67 17:34, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Cleanest City

Readers Digest has Portland as the cleanest city [11], do we want to mention this? tdwuhs

While I don't doubt Reader's Digest, as it is an acceptable and noteworthy publication, the article in question provides very little info and data on the criteria that was used to rate these cities. All it says about that is, "From air to water to trash, Reader's Digest ran the numbers." Ok, that's great, but it really doesn't tell me anything! How did they look at the numbers on air quality, water pollution, etc? The article, as written, looks more like the personal opinion of the author than an actual scientific study of the cleanest cities in the nation. Dr. Cash 22:49, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Oregon Business magazine

Putting this info I removed from the media section here: Oregon Business magazine [12] and Oregon Home magazine [13] are both published in Portland. Oregon Business is the only magazine in Oregon that covers business from a statewide perspective, and Oregon Home is the region's premier remodeling and decor publication. Both are published by MEDIAmerica, Inc. [14]

I'm not sure this is notable enough for the article, and as it stands, it reads like an ad. Please see this guideline, and especially here. Thanks! Katr67 18:50, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I moved the citation to a more appropriate place; thanks for the head's up. Those are all factual statements, though. ;) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Past-man (talk • contribs) 12:02, August 3, 2006 (UTC)

Mayor's Ball

What's with the Mayor's Ball? I can't find proper information at WP and in the net... Scriberius 04:01, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Portland Demographics/Northeast Portland

Under the Northeast Portland Section (under the five quadrants) it says that the inner city neighborhoods around MLK blvd "were once predominately African American" but, because of gentrification, that is not the case. I don't know who wrote that but I drive through MLK all the time and it still is most definately predominately African American (it seems about 95%!) and, if anything, they appear to be increasing. Also, the North and Southeast quandrants of Portland definately have their African American neighborhoods as well. However, this is never really mentioned.

Another thing that catches me offguard is where it says that Portland is only 6.33% African American. This seems very low. I know the suburbs have less than that and I know there are some neighborhoods in Portland (mostly Northwest and Southwest) where this 6.33% may be true, however, I grew up in and around Portland (including Northeast and Southeast) and 6.33% just seems low. I understand that this is an average number but every time I drive through most of the streets of Portland (not just near MLK but also around St. Johns, Southeast, Parkrose, and many other areas) I see much more than this. Also, every time I walk through Lloyd Center the number seems more like 40% there. And Lloyd Center is the central retail shopping area of Portland, which should have a somewhat accurate depiction of the total population. It is possible that the 3.55% from other races and the 4.15% from two or more races include mostly African Americans. This would make the number something like 12% to 14% of the population being African American (or at least mixed). That seems more like Portland. I don't know about that 6.33% number though, I know they are gov't census figures but what I see doesn't match up with what they say. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jae2006 (talk • contribs) 23:47, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

"Third" Largest City in "Pacific Northwest"

I don't think that it is best to say that Portland is the third largest city in the Pacific Northwest (behind Seattle and Vancouver, BC) for three good reasons. One, the idea that Vancouver is larger than Portland is subjective and misleading. Vancouver itself may be a tiny bit larger, but the metro area may be a bit smaller if you included Salem and the Willamette Valley with Portland (which is what the government considers). Two, when people think of Pacific Northwest they usually think of just Oregon and Washington, even if the technical definition says differently. Three, why are we comparing cities from outside of two different countries with one another. It makes since to compare cities with other cities that are in the same country. Which is why saying that Portland is the second largest city in the Northwestern United States sounds better. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jae2006 (talk • contribs) 23:47, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I haven't really been to the northwestern US yet myself, so I cannot speak for what the locals describe the region as. But to me, I would think that 'Pacific Northwest' really would lean towards being US-centric - Vancouver, British Columbia is really in southwestern Canada, isn't it? Unless you're considering the term 'Pacific Northwest' to apply to the northwestern part of the continent of North America. Dr. Cash 19:19, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

No, "Pacific Northwest" means of the US broadly. If it were of North America, it would mean Alaska, and probably not even all of that. However, that said, I think Portland, Seattle and Vancouver are broadly and correctly considered part of a cohesive region, in the same way that LA, San Diego and Santa Barbara are, or Boston, New York and New Haven. And the name of the region is the Pacific Northwest. I know people who flow back and forth between all three cities. Yes that's slightly inconsistent logically but I think it's the reality of the world. And if Portland and Vancouver are so approximate that the inclusion of Salem (50 miles away) tips the balance, let's just say they're about the same size. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Msalt (talk • contribs) 16:33, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

As a resident of Vancouver, WA, and Portland, OR, I can't say that I'd include Vancouver BC in the "Pacific Northwest". At least amongst the residents, Pacific Northwest only includes the US -T8y8

As a resident of Portland, OR, I disagree. As does the article Pacific Northwest. If you have some actual empirical language-use data, it would be interesting to see it! --ScottMainwaring 05:33, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Under no plausible definition of the Portland Metropolitan area is Salem included. See this reference: [15]. The Portland-Vancouver Metro Area (PVMA) includes "Clackamas, Columbia, Multnomah, Washington and Yamhill counties in Oregon and Clark county in Washington". -- Gnetwerker 16:37, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I changed the wording back to "third largest in the Pacific Northwest" based on the discussion (and persuasive refutations) above. --ScottMainwaring 08:07, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I think the term "Pacific Northwest" needs to be changed, so that it's consistent in both the Seattle and Portland articles. Right now, Seattle's article states that it's the largest city in the Pacific Northwest region of the United States, and Portland's article states that it's the third largest city in the "Pacific Northwest". Why is it that Pacific Northwest is defined differently between the two articles? Either Seattle's article should be changed to say it's the second largest city in the Pacific Northwest, or Portland's article should be changed to say it's the second largest city in the Pacific Northwest region of the United States. LeviathanMist 13:04, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Please see the discussiona at Talk:Pacific Northwest. Katr67 17:46, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Climate

I think this page is great as it is right now, but I have a question. I see that Portland is in the Marine West Coast climate zone. Is there any way to find a map of the Marine West Coast climate zone of the northwestern United States? Oh yeah, and what other cities might be in this zone? Thanks!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.54.227.219 (talk • contribs)

For the patient, a wealth of information about what might also be called the "Coastal Temperate Rainforest of the Pacific Northwest" can be found at Ecotrust's GIS subsidiary, Inforain. -- Gnetwerker 19:40, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Okay, Thanks.

Please add a reference to the annual rainfall estimate. The article currently says that the annual rainfall of Portland is 44.07 inches. However, this NOAA webpage [16] says that the annual rainfall is 36.3 inches. PJMweb 05:42, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

In the opening paragraph, there is mention of Portland's "rainy but temperate winters". While temperate is correct in one regard, it is somewhat misleading in that most of North America is in the northern temperate zone. It would be more accurate to describe the winters as "moderate" or "mild", with perhaps a mention of the maritime influence. The climate section handles this correctly.

Better maps needed

The locator map Image:Portland Multnomah.png gives the erroneous impression that Portland lies entirely within Multnomah County (and doesn't show the half of Hayden Island within city limits). The "5 sections map" Image:Portland.png shows only the central section of the city and doesn't give a good sense of its actual boundaries. Could a cartographically inclined editor please supply some better maps? Thanks! --ScottMainwaring 05:45, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Scott, I mildly disagree...as for Multnomah County, the portions of Portland that lie within Clackamas and Washington Counties are tiny, and I don't think they'd be noticeable on a map the size of the existing one. I believe the 3-county-spanning nature of Portland is adequately explained in the text. As for the quadrants, the map adequately illustrates the boundaries, which I believe is the important thing. I suppose a little stripe of red on Hayden Island couldn't hurt, and I'd be happy to edit that in if you think it would be sufficient? -Pete 06:33, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Removed paragraph

Over 167 profiles on MySpace refer to the city as "Portland Fucking Oregon", a nickname create perhaps as a means to distinguish the town from Portland, Maine and popularized by local radio personality Rick Emerson. A variety of clothing with this nickname are sold as tourist items at local bar Roxy bar and a variant, "PDFX", combining "Portland Fucking Oregeon" with the "PDX" area code is sold through cafepress.com.

This paragraph seems to contain original research. That's why I cut it from the article. It's certainly unreferenced. Unless there are reliable secondary sources stating these facts though, we can't have 'em. -GTBacchus^(talk) 06:19, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Urban growth boundary

I didn't even realize Orgegon had that. Do other states have a law like that? Just curious. --SavoirFaireIsEverywhere 23:54, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

See the Urban growth boundary article --Jason McHuff 19:46, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Homeless Youth in Portland

I was very surprised to see that, in no part of this article was there any mention of the fact that Portland, Oregon has a major homeless youth problem. I recently watched a documenary on MSNBC about this, and I certainly expected that anyone who decided to write about Portland, would include information about the hundreds of teens who flock there every month, escaping an abusive lifestyle, neglect, etc. Unless I missed a small portion of the article, I don't think that there was much to say about the issue. Anyone agree??? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Aka96818 (talk • contribs) 17:34, 11 December 2006 (UTC).

Population esitmate off: By over 20,000.

I thought the population for Portland sounded off, so checked out the link provided for its population. Under Table 7: Population of cities by Alphabetical listing, it shows Portland's 2005 population as being 556,000, not 533,000 so I'm going to change that. It also says the same under table 6, and I haven't checked the others. Here's the link this page provides. Reticulum 01:05, 4 January 2007 (UTC)Reticulum

Measure 37

Since Portland's unique urban planning is noted on this page, I think some mention should be made of Oregon Ballot Measure 37 (2004), which is radically changing the context in which that planning takes place. I'll try to come back and add something, unless somebody else wants to do so. It's a politically charged issue, so it's especially important to keep it neutral. -Pete 18:28, 28 January 2007 (UTC)