Talk:Prema Sai Baba

Hi, there are discourses in which Sathya Sai Baba elaborates on the reasons Prema Sai Baba will marry and have a family. Does Jayasimha[6]

The only reference (Note 6) for these new detailed predictions ascribed to Sathya Sai Baba is a devotee website article: www.saibaba.ws/articles/premasaibaba.htm. It contains the following "revelations".

A living chronological account of the history of Sathya Sai Baba's life on Planet Earth, the second of the triple incarnations of the Sai Baba Avatar and the promised Golden Age. World History after 1900, or World History before 1900. Choose and & Listen to God's singing.

• 2022 Age 96, Lord Sai Baba leaves this body and enters into mahasamadhi.

• 2023 Swami Nalin, a reincarnated soul of Swami Vivekananda heads the Sathya Sai Organisation in the absence of Lord Sai Baba. Call him "Assistant Sai Baba".

• 2030 Assuming 8 years later, birth of Prema Sai in Mysore region. A reincarnated Prof. Kasturi (already borne in Mysore) is the Mother of Sai.

• 2044 Assuming age 14, Prema Sai announces his arrival, like in 1940; resumes His role as Lord of the World and continues His Divine Mission on planet Earth. Welcome to the Love Era, The goldest Golden Age.

• 2051 Assuming at age 21, Prema Sai gets married to a beautiful girl. Hmm hmm, many old lady devotees in the ashram now are vying for the role equivalent to Sita.

• 2053 Assuming age of 23, Goddess Mother will bear a son. It is common knowledge that Prema Sai will be a father to one boy. And nobody is vying for this 'small' role.

• 2053-2126 is a 73 years of golden times!!!!

• 2126 Death of Prema Sai assuming His body lived for 96 years After 2126 the end of the Triple Incarnation, but is it the end of the Golden Age?

Book references:

Sri Sathya Sai Baba and the Future of Mankind by SP Ruhela.

Is Sai Baba God? by MR Kundra.

Sai Baba and Nara Narayana Gufa Ashram by Swami Maheshwaranand.

God Lives in India by RK Karanjia.

Sai Baba of Shirdi, a unique Saint by MV Kamath & VB Kher.

Vivekananda His Gospel of Man-making by Swami Jyotimayananda

Contants [sic] of this page

Courtesy Simon Sim. Source: www.katongehv.com/1prema.htm

I therefore propose for deletion as unreliable sources Notes 6,7,8 and 10, as well as the initial text quoted above. Ombudswiki (talk) 16:18, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

New Forum?

Prema Sai Baba has been talked about by Sathya Sai Baba, both in public discourses and private conversations.
He has produced a ring for John Hislop and photos for others of his physical appearance.
These are facts. just as Revelations in the new testament is only 'talked about' but people believe it and talk about it and discuss and so it has a page.

see also 2012 in fiction , Second Coming , Book of Enoch

i do not think that the sources should be deleted:

1. its your opinion (with no consesus-- or resolution from the Sathya Sai Baba page)
2. these sources still seem reliable in the Sathya Sai Baba page (http://www.saibaba.ws/articles/interviewwithjournalistsept1976.htm) see dicussion about context and content in "Sathya Sai Baba discussion"
3 these pages do carry information that is relevant and they have not been deeemed inappropriate by any wikipedia body
4. Wikipedia needs a Prema Sai Baba page as other pages refered to this figure. Considering that it is, as wikipedia says "about scheduled or expected future events." things are unknown and information changes. Take into account the Sathya Sai Baba organization website has a page dedicated to Prema Sai. You said in the Sathya Sai Baba discussion page the Sai Org. page is reliable, so the topic is reliable.
5. it seems your problem is with the notion of "Prema Sai Baba" and not with the page. ("This new article takes the prediction of the coming of Prema Sai Baba to new heights of hearsay and devotee fantasy" and you go on to say 'predictions' again). "This latest inflation of a hypothetical prediction needs to be toned down". "need" is based on your opinion, and it seems to be a very strong opinion if the word 'need' is used.
6. The time line that you mentioned and copied (consuming about 85% of your discussion) is a linear and simply laid out chronology of the discussed future Prema Sai incarnation. Everything there, except the "73 of Golden years' and the authors remarks about "And nobody is vying for this 'small' role." can be concluded from preforming simple math. It is common knowledge Sai Baba said he will enter Mahasamadhi at age 96, so do the math. 1926 + 96 He has talked about the 8 years until being born (including VIvekanada) add another 8 years. and it goes on in this fashion. (most of the information the article uses is also found on http://www.sathyasai.org/intro/premasai.htm )

The sources work in the Sathya Sai Baba page. if you have the time to research other books, perhaps searching out confirmation of sources to the certain talked about events would be more helpful.

"I would also urge you to re-examine the tone, content and value of ...your... recent contributions to these Discussion pages" why do your titles connotate such elevated emotions about the topic. a simple 'controversial sources' would suffice. as far as hypothetical, look up 'apocalypse' in wikipedia. why is so much information gathered about it? it exists in theory. a future event(?). it is 'fantasy ' as it has not happened (yet?) and yet there are so many versions of what is to happen. i get the feeling a tabloid headline in reading the first few lines of your discussion "to new heights of hearsay and devotee fantasy" this is your opinion. that is all. make your comments relevant to the topic. state what you think, no need to make 'inflated' headlines.

it seems like its a matter of opinion. with a tabloid headline.

This discussion and your opinion is just carried over from the Sathya Sai Baba discussion page. Its not working there so you've decided to expand to a new forum. Why not resolve the problems in one place first and then use the conclusion to improve other articles.

i agree the page can be improved with more information and sources. look at the first discussion.

J929 (talk) 14:14, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Let's have a look at some specific claims, which depend on your Note 7 (which was Note 6 when I last wrote).

1. "The future incarnation of Sathya Sai Baba is to include the roles of being a husband and father. It is said, at a certain time, Prema Sai will be married, and be the father to one boy.[7]"

"It is said ..." Where is the textual reference to this prediction?

2. "Around 2116, the incarnation will finish as Prema Sai Baba (then 86) will enter into mahasamadhi.[7]"

Again, where is the textual reference to that prediction about the death of Prema Sai Baba at age 86, which is also offered in the saibaba.ws article? Ombudswiki (talk) 07:48, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Sri Sathya Sai Baba and the Future of Mankind by SP Ruhela.
Is Sai Baba God? by MR Kundra.
Sai Baba and Nara Narayana Gufa Ashram by Swami Maheshwaranand.
God Lives in India by RK Karanjia.
Sai Baba of Shirdi, a unique Saint by MV Kamath & VB Kher.
Vivekananda His Gospel of Man-making by Swami Jyotimayananda

you noted the references in your last discussion.

you have not cleared up any of the points i brought up (in the beginning of thsi topic) and continue to plod along "adding new points" that you have already 'cut and pasted' your own answer to.

i dont see more than an opinion here, so will stop this discussion until it is cleared up on the page it originated.

so i clearly state, clarify what are the appropraite references on the page where it started (Stahya Sai Baba discussion) and then go form there.

J929 (talk) 16:01, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

The Sathya Sai Baba Discussion Page is not relevant to my request. My questions relate to part of the content of this new article which you appear to have written. If you did write it, you must be aware of the exact sources of the 2 allegations which you have made and which I have queried. Your blanket listing of all six book sources given in the devotee web site article by an unknown devotee (who does not even mention page names) is not a correct way of answering those two specific questions of mine. I assume you must have more specific evidence about these two points and I request you to share it with us. In short, please give the exact sources and page references, so that they can be properly checked. These are the 2 pieces of information I am specially interested in:

1. "The future incarnation of Sathya Sai Baba is to include the roles of being a husband and father. It is said, at a certain time, Prema Sai will be married, and be the father to one boy.[7]"

2. "Around 2116, the incarnation will finish as Prema Sai Baba (then 86) will enter into mahasamadhi.[7]" Ombudswiki (talk) 11:27, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

the sentences are referenced. if you have a problem with the sources, please see Sathya Sai Baba discussion page. and a reply to your vandalism is also requested...

J929 (talk) 19:50, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

These specific points are not referenced to specific books and pages. Please supply the exact references to specific books for the points under examination here. Ombudswiki (talk) 03:18, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

your intentions are made clear here, http://bdsteel.tripod.com/More/ so i dont feel any effort to supply your negative point of view with more info. if your writing do not have merit with wikipedia as a source, then why should your writings in wikipedia articles have value? if you are concerned with the value of the article, source the material yourself. you seem excited enough about a 600 page book, please use those resources to reference your own enquiries. any thing on the vandalism yet? or is taking a new form?

odd, you seem to write about what you feel is relevant, ie opinion, ( as seen in http://bdsteel.tripod.com/More/ ) , not what counter points other editors bring to your arguement. note the word arguement.

J929 (talk) 13:44, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

I assume that this outburst (which I have great difficulty in following) is meant somehow to cover up the fact that you have (once more) been unable to find verifiable citations for the 2 statements I queried previously. So it would appear that the statements were not adequately referenced in your source, which, I remind you and other readers, was a devotee’s article, reproduced on an unofficial devotee website (saibaba.ws). If this is so, how do you justify the continued inclusion of the 2 statements in this Wikipedia article, and what does it tell us about the reliability of the devotee website source?

As further food for thought, the 2 references were not included in the official source cited in Note 1, even though that was quite wide-ranging (http://www.sathyasai.org/intro/premasai.htm). Ombudswiki (talk) 07:48, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Article should be re-deleted

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Prema_Sai_Baba_%282nd_nomination%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&page=Prema+Sai+Baba Andries (talk) 07:41, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

There are relevant discussions Sathya Sai Baba has made regarding Prema Sai Baba. (see references on the Prema Sai Baba page). Biographical info. is of future, so as the header reads, info can change. There is a second coming of Christ wikipedia page. is it not based on similiar info. on future events?

are you suggesting another nomination for deletion or refering to a past event? should you start another nomination, please inform the other editors by posting a link here.
Thanks!

is it surprising that the NPOV about Sai Baba still bleeds unto other pages. if you were banned from editing the Sathya Sai Baba page, it seems possible your opinion/suggestion is based on your opinion of Sai Baba and not the article itself.

J929 (talk) 13:36, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

I requested re-deletion of this article [1]. Andries (talk) 08:31, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Shirdi Sai Baba philosophy

hey, i removed the phrase "according to the philospohy started by Shirdi Sai Baba" as it seems vague. ie what philosophy from Shirdi Sai Baba? re-incarnation? triple avatar-ship? 8 years before re-incarnation? i tried to find a reference but couldn't, if anyone could find a reference for the statement, it would help to clear things up...

J929 (talk) 03:57, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

From the sathyasai.org website:

Sathya Sai Baba says that He is the second of a triple incarnation. The first was Shirdi Sai Baba and the third will be Prema Sai Baba. Below, we give the information that is known about Prema Sai Baba, with references to the sources.

The first mention of Prema Sai by Sathya Sai Baba appears to be in the discourse Shiva Shakthi, 6 July 1963, In a conversation between Shiva, Shakthi, and Bharadwaja after Bharadwaja performed a ritual, Shiva said that they would take human form and be born in the Bharadwaja lineage, thrice: Shiva alone as Shirdi Sai Baba, Shiva and Shakthi together at Puttaparthy as Sathya Sai Baba, and Shakthi alone as Prema Sai, later. More information about Prema Sai

Sathya Sai Baba said in this discourse of 9 September 60 (Chapter 31 of Sathya Sai Speaks volume 1):

I will be in this mortal human form for 59 years more and I shall certainly achieve the purpose of this avatar; do not doubt it. I will take My own time to carry out My Plan so far as you are concerned. I cannot hurry because you are hurrying. I may sometimes wait until I can achieve ten things at one stroke; just as an engine is not used to haul one coach, but awaits until sufficient haulage in proportion to its capacity is ready. But My Word will never fail; it must happen as I will.

We have heard often that Prema Sai will be born eight years after the passing of Sathya Sai Baba, which will take place when Sathya Sai Baba is 96. In "The Sai Trinity", by Dr. S.P. Ruhela (Taring paperbacks, Vikas Publishing House Pvt Ltd, New Delhi, 1997), the author states that Sathya Sai Baba has been disclosing small amounts of information to close devotees from time to time and states that Sai Baba has predicted that Prema Sai will be born in Karnataka about 8 years after He leaves this body.

Howard Murphet, in his book Sai Baba: Invitation to Glory (Chapter 4), says that

Finally, Sathya Sai states, there will be Prema Sai who, one year after the passing of the Sathya Sai form, will be born in Karnataka (the old Mysore State), at a place between Bangalore and the city of Mysore. On page 16 of the book Living Divinity author Shakuntala Balu writes, Sri Sathya Sai Baba has said that there will be one more Sai Avatara called Prema Sai. The third Sai will be born in Gunaparthi, a village in the Mandya district of Karnataka. Thus, Sri Sathya Sai Baba refers not only to his past, but also to the future form he will assume as Prema Sai. In Sathya Sai Baba, The Embodiment of Love, by Peggy Mason and Ron Laing, the authors write about a discussion they had about Prema Sai. We wondered if the next descent as Prema Sai, to come very quickly after the present form is vacated at the age of ninety six, would be female. Baba replied, "No, male, in Mysore -- Karnataka." (Since 1972, the state of Mysore is called Karnataka.)

In Glimpses of the Divine: Working with the Teachings of Sai Baba" (1993), author Birgitte Rodriguez writes In a more private talk to students in recent years, Baba told them that the father of His next incarnation, as Prema Sai, had been born in the southern Indian state of Karnataka. He also said that the body of Prema Sai was in the process of being formed. The missions of the triple incarnations In Spirit and the Mind, by Sam Sandweiss, the author recounts an extended interview given by Sathya Sai Baba to the Senior Editor, Mr. R.K. Karanjia, of Blitz new magazine in September 1976.

Question: Why had this task to be divided into three separate incarnations of the Shirdi, Sathya, and Prema Baba? Baba: They are not separate. I have already mentioned the complete oneness of the three in the final objective of the mission. ... Their tasks and powers requisite to them differ according to the time, the situation, and the environment. But they belong to, and derive from, the same divine body (dharma swarup).

...

The previous Avatar, Shirdi Baba, laid the base for secular integration and gave mankind the message of duty as work. The mission of the present Avatar is to make everybody realize that the same God or divinity resides in everyone. People should respect, love, and help each other irrespective of color or creed. Thus, all work can become a way of worship. Finally, Prema Sai, the third Avathar, will promote the evnagel news that not only does God reside in everybody, but everybody is God. That will be the final wisdom that will enable every man and woman to go to God.

The three Avatars carry the triple message of work, worship, and wisdom.

Hislop's changing ring

In John Hislop's My Baba and I, page 55-56, Hislop writes about Swami materializing a ring for Hislop with Prema Sai on it. The image of Prema Sai on the ring actually changed its position over the years. Hislop writes, The stone was a cameo of Prema Sai, the loving Lord of Creation, destined to appear on Earth a few years after the death of the Sathya Sai Body. It was a brownish stone, highly glazed, sculptured in profile, the bridge and length of the nose visible with a suggestion of the arch of the left eye. It was a noble head with shoulder-length hair, moustache, and beard; the head resting on, or emerging from, a lotus flower. His countenance was tranquil, peaceful, majestic. Baba said, "He is only now in the process of birth, so I cannot show more of him. This is the first time he is shown to the world."

...

Wherever I go, devotees ask to see the ring. ... In a year or so, those devotees who had seen the ring sometime earlier said something surprising on seeing it again. They said, "It is turning. The whole nose can be seen now."

My reply was always, in truth, that I could see no change. But they said, "You see it every day and do not notice."

... One day, [in 1980], at a devotee meeting, I was showing the ring, and I looked at it carefully. It struck me, "It is different! It is changing!.

Now the entire nose is there and visible, whereas at first the entire nose was not visible -- or better to say the nose merged into the edge of the stone and did not appear to be fully visible. But now there is a space between the nose and the edge of the stone. Moreover, a portion of the left eye can be seen and also a portion of the left cheek. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.174.169.160 (talk) 00:31, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Third party reputable sources

At the moment the article does not use any third party reputable sources, thus not devotee sources. It is mandatory that the article uses at least some. Officially all statements must be sourcable to those sources. Andries (talk) 11:10, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Here is some Critical but very accurate obituary mentions, but does not treat Prema Sai Baba at the bottom

I do not think that there is any reputable source that treats Prema Sai Baba. Reputable sources treat Sathya Sai Baba and at most mention Prema Sai Baba.

See Excerpt from “Charismatic authority in the Sathya Sai Baba movement” by Donald Taylor in 'Hinduism in Great Britain', Richard Burghart (ed.), 1987, London/New York: Tavistock Publications, pp. 130-131. scroll to the bottom

Andries (talk) 14:13, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

http://www.rediff.com/news/report/shattered-devotees-now-wait-for-prema-sai-baba/20110424.htm

http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-show/slide-show-1-prema-sai-baba-will-be-born-in-doddamallur/20110429.htm

Andries (talk) 11:25, 11 July 2011 (UTC)