Talk:Prince Eugene of Savoy
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Question directed to Contaldo80. Who says Schulenberg's comment should probably read "la petite débauche et la p[ine] au dela de tout."? Eugene's foremost biographer Max Braubach, states in Prinz Eugen von Savoyen volume V, p.412, that Schulenberg's discrete "la p...." meant either paillardise (lewdness) or 'prostitution'. It might also have indicated puterie (whoring). It is a reference to the women who accompanied the soldiers on campaign. This is why the recent addition to this article is 'tendentious'. There is no evidence of Eugene's homosexuality; there are no letters, no journals, there was no chronicler. Public House songs, rumour, hearsay is not evidence. The article could expand on this subject, but not like this. Thank you. Rebel Redcoat (talk) 19:07, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
- Because Braubach writing in the 1960s doesn't address the issue of homosexuality, we should not assume that it is not relevant. I accept the point that there is no direct evidence (which in an age when homosexual acts meant death it would be hard in any case to to find outright); yet nevertheless the perception that Eugene was homosexual is fairly widespread. Circumstantial evidence in this case may be all we have. I would welcome your thoughts on what we might say in the article, and how we should present it. Contaldo80 (talk) 13:08, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
- I'll get back to you at a later date - I intend to add sources and improve in all ways this article. But I will say that it is not well known that Eugene was gay; perceptions (amongst whom??) are not fact. Rumours persisted from the bitter duchess of orleans for many years, but she hadn't seen him since he left Paris at the age of 19! We must be bound by Eugene's biographers, none of whom describe Eugen as a homosexual. Asexual maybe? 'Wedded to his sword' I think W Churchill described him. His intimate desires remain his own, but of his outward actions evidence must be provided. Bye for now. Redcoat.
- "Gay" is a 20th century word so we should avoid that. I admit I wasn't initially sure but since I made my edits I have read some more (recently published) books that suggest there was a common understanding/ perception around Eugene's sexuality - eg Veronica Buckley's "Madame de Maintenon". There are never going to be hard facts in an area such as this, but there will be enough to draw upon to ensure the issue is covered in a sensible way. It's also worth noting that asexuality is statistically less common than homosexuality. Contaldo80 (talk) 09:40, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
- What does Miss Buckley say about Eugene's sexuality and what is her source? What makes her a credible source? Rebel Redcoat (talk) 16:58, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
- I don't know - I'll check her specific sources on this. On the whole I find her a balanced and well referenced writer. I don't think Eugene's homosexuality (or at least bisexuality) is really that controversial though - I think it's generally accepted today. Henderson dealt with the issue in the 1960s, although I don't think he came to any definitive conclusion. I'm perfectly happy for the article to raise the suggestion of homosexuality, but to conclude that we can say nothing with any certainty. "Wedded to his sword" - how quaint; I hadn't heard that said before. Contaldo80 (talk) 09:01, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
"Born in Paris to aristocratic Italian parents.... Eugene's parents came from Italian families"
His mother was of Italian origin but I'm not sure it's accurate to describe his father as simply Italian. Savoy straddled the border of the French and Italian worlds, culturally, geographically, politically and economically. Chambéry, where Eugene's father was born, was closer to the French world than the Italian and he became count of Soissons (a French, not Italian title) through his mother. His great-great-grandparents were Savoyard, Portuguese, French, French, Flemish, Spanish, Portuguese, French, Italian, French, Navarrese, French, French, and a whole lot more.
Jules Mazarin was born in Pescina, Abruzzi, and he was educated in Rome and in Acalá, Spain. After a military and diplomatic career, he entered the service of the Church. He became a naturalised Frenchman in 1639 and a Cardinal in 1641.
Eugene's parents came from Italian families.
And... Harvard University :
- Eugene's father wasn't Jules Mazarin. His father was Eugene Maurice - who came from Chambery and was thus not Italian. Contaldo80 (talk) 08:52, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
The Enciclopedia Italiana di scienze, lettere ed arti, generally regarded as the most authoritative encyclopedia of that language, writes: Eugene of Savoy (1663–1736) Italian general in the service of the Austrian Holy Roman emperor. \ Generale italo-austriaco . In my country, Prince Eugene is considered Italian such as Giuseppe Garibaldi and Dante Alighieri. Bye. --CultureEurope (talk) 16:08, 28 September 2013 (UTC)
The article should be linked with Italian History, He was a Savoy, the later ruling house of Italy and, in that time, they were Dukes of Piedmont, one of the most important Italian Region. FYI the "Prince Eugene Military March" is one of the marches of Italian Cavalry, due to the Siege of Turin in 1707 and the Piedmontese Dragoons.
This makes little sense since even Savoy was not fully italian at that time. Eugene was raised in Paris, and spent his youth in France, FRench was his first language, though he also spoke Italian and German. However, he was first and foremost an "Austrian" or "Habsburg" subject, as he only served the military of the Austrian empire. To say that he was italian would be akin to say that Emperor Charles V was German since he came from the Habsburg family. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.104.22.168 (talk) 17:42, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
Requested move 19 November 2014
one small detail is wrong in the text. The town of Passau, where Eugene met the emperor for the first time, was not a Habsburg dominion. It was ruled by prince-bishop de:Sebastian von Pötting, who welcomed the emperial court as his guests, after they had fled from Vienna, shortly before the town was encircled and besieged by the Otomans. First the court retreated to Linz in Upper Austria, but small groups of turkish avantgarde cavalry followed, so the emperor fled further west to Passau, which seemed far away enough and also easy to defend against cavalry attacks, since it is almost completely surrounded by water. There he waited for reenforcement troops from the German lands and Spanish mercenaries, who arrived from the Netherlands. --El bes (talk) 08:44, 30 December 2014 (UTC)