Talk:Prince Lorenz of Belgium, Archduke of Austria-Este

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Requested move[edit]

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was not moved due to no consensus. -- Kjkolb 03:56, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

PageName → New Name – Belgium is integral to this man's identity, IMHO, as much as Austria-Este is. I feel that there are a few options which I will list below. Charles 22:33, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Survey[edit]

Prince Lorenz of Belgium[edit]

Prince Lorenz of Belgium, Archduke of Austria-Este[edit]

  • Support (First) Lorenz is primarily known as a member of the Belgian royal family, even though he heads an Austrian branch of it. Charles 22:33, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Archduke Lorenz, Prince of Belgium[edit]

  • Support (Third) This was the form decided upon for Louise of Tuscany. Charles 16:26, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Lorenz, Archduke of Austria-Este[edit]

  • Support (Second) This would place Lorenz's title as it is, as the head of a house, rather than as a prince carrying a substantive title. Charles 16:26, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Lorenz of Austria-Este[edit]

  • First choice. Let's keep it simple, on the analogy of George of Denmark, who is chiefly (perhaps only) known as a member of the British royal house. Septentrionalis 16:00, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment George is so named because of his status as consort to a sovereign. Charles 16:26, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Prince Lorenz of Austria-Este[edit]

  • Second choice, for those who insist on including a title. This one is presumably ratified by usage, and does not involve any PoV on the status of Modena. Septentrionalis 16:03, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment The title "Prince of Austria-Este" does not exist. Charles 16:23, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
      • This comment would be relevant to Lorenz, Prince of Austria-Este, if anyone had proposed it. Septentrionalis 18:15, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Discussion[edit]

I feel that a form incorporating both designations would be optimal, but the length may be cumbersome. Charles 22:47, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
An English-language search of Factiva (the world's largest newspaper database) shows the following:
  • "Archduke Lorenz" 27 occurrences (the most recent of which is June 2002)
  • "Prince Lorenz" 46 occurrences (including 37 since June 2002); I checked that these were all either "Prince Lorenz of Belgium" or "Belgian's Prince Lorenz" or something similar (i.e. they are not references to some other prince named Lorenz)
I personally always refer to this individual as "Archduke Lorenz of Austria-Este", but the Factiva numbers would suggest that "Prince Lorenz of Belgium" would be the appropriate Wikipedia article title. This is one of those many occasions when general usage is different from those of us who hang out in royalty discussion groups. Noel S McFerran 22:16, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Though I am favorably inclined to "Lorenz of Austria-Este" as the French, Dutch (and Catalan) Wikipedias have, Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles) would indicate using the current name (as with Prince Andrew, Duke of York). —Centrxtalk • 18:26, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
More thoughts: I firmly feel that Prince Lorenz of Belgium, Archduke of Austria-Este is the best title for a few reasons... Even though Austria is obviously a country, it makes it clear that the archducal title is not a grant of the Kingdom of Belgium (e.g., such as Prince Andrew, Duke of York... Prince and Duke are both UK titles in this instance). Belgium should either be mentioned with the princely title or omitted altogether in the article title (e.g., Lorenz, Archduke of Austria-Este).
Another issue that I would bring up but think would be better to discuss in one place is the titles of his children. Appending the title Archduke of Austria-Este to the end of each of their names is a form used for the head of the house. If they were each titled Archduke Name, Prince of Belgium, I think it would be a better form because there is no one who is "the" Prince of Belgium anyway, since Belgium has a king. A longer form would be Archduke Name of Austria-Este, Prince of Belgium. Charles 22:02, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.


Duke of Modena[edit]

is he really considered the heir to the dukedom of Modena? I know when Francis V died, he willed his wealth to Franz Ferdinand, who took the Este name and arms, but normal succession would make Franz Duke of Bavaria, Duke of Modena. so I guess the question is there a source of the Archduke of Austria-Este using this title? 71.194.44.209 (talk) 05:32, 7 May 2011 (UTC)