Talk:Professional wrestling

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Contents

[edit] Images

Whenever a wrestler is mentioned, say on a PPV page, it's always the same image of that wrestler. I understand it is difficult to find images to use... but it gets very awkward looking. I mean, the recent Slammiversery 2009 page has a picture captioned "the recently returned Raven", for an event that happened yesterday, with an image from years ago. This is just not how an encyclopedia should work.

I think, if you're going to use an image, it should be relevant. If you want random pictures of Raven, click his name. Throwing in random "Randy Orton did this" with a picture of Orton posing with a fan next to a description of his Elimination Chamber match is just not going to cut it. There's no connection, it's illogical, it's misleading, and frankly - after reading a page or two, it gets extremely annoying. The page for the wrestler is where random images should be linked, and the specific event pages should contain images from the specific event.

[edit] Shawn Michaels

Shawn should be on the cultural icon list. 64.237.207.36 (talk) 20:41, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, as great a wrestler he is, he is not a cultural icon. Outside of wrestling, most people would not know who he is. --DanteAgusta (talk) 20:43, 12 October 2008 (

you just allways have to dissagree with me dont u dante? haha72.50.50.54 (talk) 19:31, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

As much as I would love pro wrestlers to get the treatment of other pro athletes, we know they don't. It is only a select few who cross over into main stream. Shawn is one of the best ever, but has never done anything but wrestle. So, unfortunately, the rest of the world just does not know about him. --DanteAgusta (talk) 20:52, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
That's because you're not a professional athelete. You're a professional actor. Learn the difference. The former competes. The latter acts according to a script. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.131.62.113 (talk) 01:20, 7 November 2008 (UTC)


well then bret hart should be taken out of the canada icons because no one knows who he is out of the wrestling ring —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.237.207.36 (talk) 21:10, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

He is known across Canada. --DanteAgusta (talk) 22:01, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

he isnt64.237.200.218 (talk) 01:40, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Really Bret Hart is just a wrestler, nothing else so why is he getting better treatment then Shawn? Hell if it worls like that you might as well toss in Chris Benoit and Chris Jericho on the Canada section64.237.200.218 (talk) 01:40, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Andre not usa

andre is french not american so you should remove him from the united states cultural icon list. 64.237.207.36 (talk) 22:43, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

It also says "adopted" home country, Andre lives and worked in the US for many years, and is an known and remembered to non wrestling fans. --DanteAgusta (talk) 22:49, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Objective characterization

What this article truly lacks is an objective characterisation of the events typical to "pro wrestling", placed near the top of the article, informing laymen about what it really is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JeR (talk • contribs) 06:22, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Yeah. It's really quite useless as a Wikipedia article because of all the fanbois like Dante rushing to revert edits and write in biased prose. The point of Wikipedia is to explain what X is quickly, efficiently, and completely to someone who doesn't know what X is. If someone from another country where scripted wrestling matches do not exist but competitive wrestling SPORT does were to look this up, they would not actually figure out from this article that it is scripted theater. The first paragraph, or right after it, is where it needs to be clarified. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.131.62.113 (talk) 01:23, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

[edit] It's fake!

No where is this clearly and directly mentioned in the article and when I did mention it, my edit was reverted by someone who still thinks it's real.

Prove it--DanteAgusta (talk) 04:05, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Scripted, yes. Fake, no. We all know it's scripted (preplanned winners, everything done and said is written by producers), but it isn't fake. If it was fake EVERYTHING including the slams, and injuries would be fake, and we all know that there have been real injuries, and moves that aren't fake. Edgehead5150 (talk) 17:11, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
    • By 'fake' I think it means the moves are fake. Like a punch isn't a real punch, they are just acting it out and not fully punching. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.111.132.230 (talk) 09:43, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
No, "we" don't all know it's scripted... or "fake". Uneducated half-wits the world over watch this tripe believing it to be a real contest. Even well into adulthood. Only a tiny minority see it for what it is and yet still enjoy it. It's successful through a mass duping of the easily dupable. But hey, that's business. jamie (talk) 13:06, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
  • Pulled punches, "submission" holds that have no force at all behind them, and acrobatic stunts with no real combat value = fake. 71.31.244.213 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 18:26, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Can you prove any of that? I don't think you can.--DanteAgusta (talk) 21:09, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
  • Prove what? that there are some real moves and injuries? The moves i agree with you are fake, but look at the injuries over the last few years: Edge (Legit broken neck), Benoit (Botched diving headbut and broke his neck), HHH (botched a chair shot and tore muscle in his leg), HHH (botched a spinebuster and tore the same muscle in his other leg). And there are alot of other 'legit' injuries that have happened. Edgehead5150 (talk) 22:51, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
All that says is that people screwed up trying to fake a real contest so badly that they ended up getting injured. Less sophistry, more acceptance of reality, please. jamie (talk) 13:08, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

All I say is stand in the ring, and let someone put a "fake" move on you and see how it feels. Then come back and tell me it is fake. --DanteAgusta (talk) 17:05, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

What is that supposed to mean? That because the fake moves are athletic enough to cause injury, the whole charade is somehow actually more of a competition? I'll come back and tell you it's fake every day of the week. I'll come back a quadriplegic vegetable and type to you that it's fake with morse code blinking, how about that? Your statement doesn't even mean anything in the context of this discussion. jamie (talk) 04:49, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Fake depends on how you look at it. It's scripted as in the moves and winners, and wrestlers do get injured for real often. The parts where they bleed, they actually cut themselves, it's not fake blood. It's basically all fake. --Harvey "Two-Face" Dent (Muhaha!!) 23:40, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Not completely true. the winners are scripted yes. Moves, not really. And when they bleed, it is not always them cutting themselves, unless it is Shawn Michaels, then yes he is cutting himself. So the word fake does not apply to pro wrestling, not in the least. --DanteAgusta (talk) 00:25, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
It's fake because when the wrestlers look like they're in pain it's just good acting. They're never really in pain unless the opponent accidentally really hurts them. --Harvey "Two-Face" Dent (Muhaha!!) 01:20, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
Says the person who has never been in a wrestling match. Glad you gave your expert opinion. Too bad it is incorrect. --DanteAgusta (talk) 02:10, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
Hah, you make me laugh. Earth to Dante, high school and college wrestling is obviously real. Professional, as in WWE, TNA, ROH, etc. are fake! --Harvey "Two-Face" Dent (Muhaha!!) 02:18, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
As I said before, prove it. --DanteAgusta (talk) 02:20, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcN16bmkSWU --Harvey "Two-Face" Dent (Muhaha!!) 12:38, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
Ah YouTube, there you have proof. It is so simple. Other things on YouTube? Bigfoot is real, proof of aliens and UFOs, cat's can sing opera, McCain and Obama are the same person, Elvis is alive, and Satan lives in Canada. Yup, YouTube shows all kind of proof on all sorts of things. --DanteAgusta (talk) 07:14, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
Guess what, dumbnut? It may be on YouTube but it still shows a live WWE event of Cena freaking not even touching his opponent with that knuckle. So there's your proof, it's as fake as Michael Jackson's face. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Harvey "Two-Face" Dent (talk • contribs) 14:16, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
LOL, yeah, rely on "proof" from a site where people upload "real" and "accurate" videos all the time. Such a great source for what is real in the world. --DanteAgusta (talk) 16:10, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
Who the hell gives a sh*t where it comes from? Loads of people claim Wikipedia is fake! It still shows a WWE event, and clearly shows how fake it is, it could be broadcasted in Time Square and it would still be true. --Harvey "Two-Face" Dent (Muhaha!!) 16:42, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
Please remain civil, there is not a need for the inappropriate language. Again, that video proves nothing, as I can go to YouTube and find just as many videos to show the opposite. Try not to bring what you think you firmly believe and use reason to make your point. If you truly want to show the proof, find the absolute proof that can not be so easily dismissed. It is not about if it is real or fake, it is about what you can prove. If we want to maintain Wikipedia as a true source for information, we need to use reason and solid sources to make it the best we can. --DanteAgusta (talk) 17:06, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
I agree with harvey, you're clearly a one-eyed sophist. jamie (talk) 04:52, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
As someone who has been in the ring, let me clear some things up. First of all, wrestling is scripted, and i prefer that term over "fake", simply because "fake" suggests that wrestling is CGI and wire tricks, which it isn't. Moreover, "fake" just illustrates the ignorance and stupidity of the person using it; you don't come out of a movie theatre and say "I didn't like that movie, because it was fake", you'd sound like an idiot. That said, think of pro wrestling as like a martial arts film; it is scripted and partially choreographed (wrestlers plan most spots before hand, very few improvise for anything more than filler), but it doesn't take away the physically demanding nature of the staging, nor the athletic ability of the participants. The difference between the two though is the "kayfabe" nature of pro wrestling. It is the wrestlers' job to make the audience believe it is real and to provoke an emotional response, but as said, very few believe it is real past the age of puberty (if nothing else, their parents and friends will tell them). Unless i am missing anything, that should really be end of story. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.13.250.122 (talk) 00:25, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
I agree with the term fake. I don't like it cause when you tell a kid something is fake, they then think they can do a move on their little brother and it won't hurt them. They don't realize the training one must go through to get into the ring. My training lasted 14 months, and that was before I was allowed to get into the ring. I think the above statement was very well said. But just a note, not all wrestlers pre plan their matches. I personally do not, I was trained in old Southern style and it was the way to "call" the match in the ring. That is how I do it, and many of the guys I work with do the same. --DanteAgusta (talk) 01:04, 11 September 2008 (UTC)--DanteAgusta (talk) 01:04, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
I don't care if YOU like it or you don't. This page is not for you. It's for people who don't know what Pro Wrestling is. Describing these people as in competition is actually, straight up, a lie. What people are referring to as "fake" is not the athleticism of the actors or anything. They are describing the COMPETITION as fake. Even cheerleading can be argued as a sport. Cheerleading competitions are scripted too--but that refers to the coordination within a squad. The competition BETWEEN squads is very very real. So until the outcome of WWE is decided in the ring by a physical competition between the two wrestlers rather than the writers behind the scenes days in advance, the COMPETITION is very very FAKE. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.131.62.113 (talk) 01:28, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
To the user above me, YOU clearly don't know what pro wrestling is. And neither do any of the other guys here who have said that wrestling is fake. In fact, to ANYONE who says that wrestling is fake, go ask guys like Triple H, The Undertaker, AJ Styles, Samoa Joe, & guys like that. They will tell you that it's not fake, that it's SCRIPTED, like in the movies. As one of the guys above said, you'd NEVER come out of a movie complaining about it because the action is fake. Ever heard of CHOREOGRAPHY? In fact, I dare anyone here who says that wrestling is fake to say that to a pro wrestler (like Triple H, AJ Styles, etc.) and see what happens. I will bet that it'll be an experience you NEVER forget for the rest of your life. Also, if you think that just because it's on YouTube that it's true, then all someone has to do is upload a video to YouTube saying that "people who claim wrestling is fake are stupid". I mean, if someone says THAT on YouTube, then it MUST be true. Please, don't waste the time of people on here who truly do have an open mind. In fact, if you say wrestling is fake, then I dare you to take a chairshot to the head. In fact, the best proof that wrestling ISN'T fake are the "Don't Try This At Home" promos that WWE airs. They air those promos FOR A REASON! 24.15.89.68 (talk) 03:57, 24 November 2008 (UTC)


I'm so disallusiioned ;) I heard the million dollar man (Ted Dibase) at my church speak one time. He said that wrestling hs more injuries than football. If they really hit each other, they would have black eyes and brain damage all the time. Is pro wrestling ever improvised?whicky1978 talk 02:47, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Scripted is a weird word here. Yes, the winner is known before the match. Yes, some wrestlers, like in WWE will plan their match out before hand. No, not all wrestlers do this, as some still do it old school and go into the ring and rely on their training to have a match. Wrestlers go through special training, and it is NOT as easy at it may look. It is very difficult, and very risky. Yes, things are not what they seem, but the physicality is very real and athletic abilities are needed. Wrestling hurts, maybe not the way you would think, but it hurts. Is wrestling fake, NO. Stupid word that does not really make since, even though it is freely thrown around even behind the "curtain". But at all times, you are 1/16th away from death. Seriously. One false move can get you killed, that is why it takes months, even years to be trained properly. Just take wrestling for what it is, entertainment. If you don't like it then don't watch. --DanteAgusta (talk) 03:59, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

It's fake because (a) it is scripted, (b) the players are all acting out that script, (c) the winner is known beforehand, (d) they take lessons on how to give and take a punch, (e) they admit as much whenever they are asked, (e) MOST OF ALL, if you compare it to any real sport, and in that sport you were found to be doing any one (let alone all) of (a)-(d) there would be riots, criminal investigations, etc., etc., etc. The whole thing is not a sport, it's a play. The players are more akin to acrobats in a circus (albeit a whole lot uglier) than sportsmen. If you think the fact that they have huge drug/spend-your-life-lifting-weights induced muscles makes you a sportsman then every gym up and down the country is full of sportsmen is it not? And if this were the case then why do we not have the gym Olympics, where Mr twenty inch biceps 'fights' Mr twenty one inch biceps? I cannot for the life of me understand how they get so many people buying their stuff. It's amazing. Imagine if boxing were to be run in the same way. Would the same thing happen? People have gone to jail for fixing boxing matches. Every single pro wrestling match is fixed. "Prove it." Nah. Why bother. If you still think it's not fake after even the wrestlers themselves admitting it how on earth could I prove it? According to Mr "prove it" everything is fake and lies *except* for the wrestling! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.20.151.165 (talk) 14:55, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

They stamp their feet on the ground whenever they punch people, or at least they used to. I can't believe there are people here actually arguing that wrestling isn't anything other than 100 percent totally fake. Also, isn't "non competitive sport" rather a contradiction in terms? How many other non competitive sports can you think of? Most dictionaries would even define a sport as "Physical activity that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often engaged in competitively." 80.41.119.248 (talk) 00:16, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Professional wrestling is real in that it is actually something that happens and not a cartoon. They also are really wrestling as there are grapples and strikes. We can't write that the strikes are not real because just as someone can show a clip of a missed punch someone can find a clip that shows clear contact. I do believe there is something important missing from this article though as conceding it's scripted and non-competitive isn't enough. If someone can help here are some ideas of things to add: that the number of injuries such as cuts and broken limbs is significantly LESS (I understand there are SOME injuries in scripted wrestling) than other competitions with striking which should give the reader a clue about what's really going on. Cuts are very common in the UFC and other MMA promotions yet the same moves are used (take downs, kicks, and punches) and they use pads. Following on from that, these wrestlers are not required to wear pads/gloves to punch. I do believe that athletic commissions of the US would not allow real full contact punches without pads which should also give the reader insight that professional wrestling is "fake" in the meaning that most people give it. "It is unlikely that much force is placed into most of the punches since cuts are significantly rarer than in similar non-scripted competitive sports". I may not have fully thought these through so help would be appreciated.--Chrisjwowen (talk) 20:29, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Still find it amazing that some adults believe this is real. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.44.112.194 (talk) 17:56, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Independent Section

It needs editing, desperately. It reeks of bias; such as the part about how some independent wrestlers are more talents/charismatic than mainstream wrestlers, it is not needed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.13.250.122 (talk) 00:32, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

It reads very good to me. And it is true, there are some indy guys who are better than some of WWE's top guys. --DanteAgusta (talk) 00:55, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
It is an opinion, which does not belong in an encyclopaedic article. It doesn't matter how true or how false it is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.13.250.122 (talk) 02:35, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
I don't agree it is merely an opinion. It is a fact. But the problem with Pro Wrestling is there is no real way to give credible sources for facts. --DanteAgusta (talk) 02:42, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
It is merely opinion, and propaganda. I mean, come on, take a look at it:

"many of the "workers" aren't as chiseled as the ones on television broadcasts" - That isn't relevant at all. "Still, many local wrestlers are extremely talented, with some grapplers' techniques and charisma surpassing some of those on broadcasts of the WWE or TNA" - Once again, irrelevant. "Independent wrestlers normally have "shoot jobs" and usually wrestle for the love of the business only, since most paydays are pretty low" - Blatantly untrue AND irrelevant.

I have written a temporal replacement until someone can write a better one. It is far superior than the previous one though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.13.250.122 (talk) 21:14, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Theatre not sport

Shouldnt Professional Wrestling be considered a form of theatre rather than a form of sport? Its not competitive so why is it considered to be a sport? Just because something is being physically performed by 2 people doesnt make it a sport. if i lift a couch up with my dad it wouldnt be a sport. A competitive act between two or more people should be what defines a sport. Thetrolleywhisperer (talk) 08:19, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Two or more, Elimination Chamber match, King of the Mountain match, Ultimate X match, need a I go on? It is a conpetive sports for a belt that contains storylines and booking decisions. It is technically a sport.--WillC 01:25, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
By that definition the guys fighting with six foot cotton buds in american gladiators is a sport! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.20.151.165 (talk) 14:57, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
Competition means no pre-determined winner. It's not about having a winner and a loser, it's about those titles not being decided before the match. Can those examples say that of themselves?
Either way, "professional wrestling" almost always refers to the staged activity. One could argue that non-staged wrestling by reimbursed athletes is, while both professional and wrestling, not "professional wrestling". This would be in the same sense that playing field hockey on ice would not be "ice hockey", or that playing football (as in soccer) in America would not be "American football". I'd suggest that if the aforementioned examples were not pre-determined, they'd deserve a different name, (ie "Competitive Wrestling") and recognised as a sport. Unlike professional wrestling, which shouldn't be. Gialloneri (talk) 18:01, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Stop removing my post

i keep adding hhh, taker and hbk and someone keeps removing it. Theres allot of nerds here but that one specific nerd should cut it out. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.224.149.195 (talk) 19:40, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Those names are not house hold names. Read the whole sentence. The ones posted are known by non wrestling fans during their respected times. People who know nothing of wrestling knew something about that person. Triple H, Undertaker, HBK are all great wrestlers, but they are not known outside of wrestling to the degree that the others were/are. --DanteAgusta (talk) 21:59, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

oh please like bret hart's a house hold name —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.50.53.157 (talk) 21:23, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

It has been confirmed that in Canada Bret Hart is a house hold name. The guy was on the Simpsons for Pete's sake. --DanteAgusta (talk) 22:22, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Adhering to kayfabe

I've noticed that most wrestling articles (I'm putting this in this article because it's the centerpoint of the wrestling articles) are writting a manner that adheres to kayfabe. For example, many wrestlers' biographies are written in a style that you would normally expect to find on kayfabe websites.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't this mean that the articles are written in an in-universe format? I haven't been on Wikipedia for long, but long enough to know that in-universe style of writing is frowned upon. Sure, there are some articles on fictional characters that are mostly in in-universe format, but the doors are wide open for anyone who has sufficient sources to rewrite the article in an out-of-universe style (such as talking about how the character is written, as opposed to what we see on TV).

Shouldn't these wrestling articles be rewritten in a similar manner? For example, Petey Williams didn't loose the Off-the-Wagon Challenge; the TNA writers used it to write out his character to cover up for his release. I think this would be a drastic improvement in the quality of wrestling articles, to the point where some may get nominated for featured articles. Thank you.Wikieditor1988 (talk) 01:48, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Lifespan

What is the average lifespan for a Wrestler? Most of them seem to not get any older than 40. —Preceding unsigned comment added by President of Internets (talk • contribs) 08:27, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes, a few wrestlers have died early. It happens. But the majority of workers live the normal life span. Many living into their 80's and 90's. But like all sports, and life in general, someone will die young when using drugs. --DanteAgusta (talk) 09:15, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Going off script?

I have no familiarity with pro wrestling, beyond knowing that the matches are scripted, and lots of tricks are used to make the fighting look far more brutal than it really is.

How oftend does it happen that one of the wrestlers (actors) deliberately go off script for some reason, perhaps because they don't agree with the preplanned outcome? When this does occur is it usually just the one wrestler doing this, or do they both get together, and effectively write a new script, unknown to the producers?

I've gathered that there are storylines at many levels in this sport. There are the single match storylines, feuds, rivalries, and even to some extent the rivalries between the the different wresling foundations have been partially scripted.

Is there any extent to which the behinds the scenes actions are scripted? Like having it look like one of the wrestlers went off script, with corresponding reactions by the producers, when in fact this was planned the whole time? 129.74.228.130 (talk) 21:35, 1 October 2009 (UTC)


[edit] Midget Wrestling?

Can we change this to Dwarf Wrestling? The term Midget is very offensive to little people. Dojojoe.

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