|This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Professional wrestling article.|
|WikiProject Professional wrestling||(Rated C-class, Top-importance)|
- 1 Article scope
- 2 Images
- 3 Shawn Michaels
- 4 Andre not usa
- 5 Objective characterization
- 6 Independent Section
- 7 Stop removing my post
- 8 Adhering to kayfabe
- 9 Add some warnings?
- 10 History?
- 11 The word "mark" goes to the wrong link.
- 12 "Originating Culture"?
- 13 Spoilers being allowed
- 14 Inferno match redirect
- 15 How long the secret has been out
- 16 Record On Professional Wrestlers Like Boxers
- 17 Fawning Marktards
- 18 Neutral notice of an RfC
- 19 Article class
- 20 Kayfabe
--184.108.40.206 (talk) 13:41, 12 November 2011 (UTC)==Biased== This article seems to be more biased to WWE rather then professional wrestling in general. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.127.116.11 (talk) 04:02, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
- That's like complaining that an article about professional football is biased to the NFL. Hanxu9 (talk) 23:37, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
The National Football League.
Whenever a wrestler is mentioned, say on a PPV page, it's bull shit that wrestler. I understand it is difficult to find images to use... but it gets very awkward looking. I mean, the recent Slammiversery 2009 page has a picture captioned "the recently returned Raven", for an event that happened yesterday, with an image from years ago. This is just not how an encyclopedia should work.
I think, if you're going to use an image, it should be relevant. If you want random pictures of Raven, click his name. Throwing in random "Randy Orton did this" with a picture of Orton posing with a fan next to a description of his Elimination Chamber match is just not going to cut it. There's no connection, it's illogical, it's misleading, and frankly - after reading a page or two, it gets extremely annoying. The page for the wrestler is where random images should be linked, and the specific event pages should contain images from the specific event.
- Sorry, as great a wrestler he is, he is not a cultural icon. Outside of wrestling, most people would not know who he is. --DanteAgusta (talk) 20:43, 12 October 2008 (
- As much as I would love pro wrestlers to get the treatment of other pro athletes, we know they don't. It is only a select few who cross over into main stream. Shawn is one of the best ever, but has never done anything but wrestle. So, unfortunately, the rest of the world just does not know about him. --DanteAgusta (talk) 20:52, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
well then bret hart should be taken out of the canada icons because no one knows who he is out of the wrestling ring —Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.104.22.168 (talk) 21:10, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
Really Bret Hart is just a wrestler, nothing else so why is he getting better treatment then Shawn? Hell if it worls like that you might as well toss in Chris Benoit and Chris Jericho on the Canada section22.214.171.124 (talk) 01:40, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
Andre not usa
- It also says "adopted" home country, Andre lives and worked in the US for many years, and is an known and remembered to non wrestling fans. --DanteAgusta (talk) 22:49, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
What this article truly lacks is an objective characterisation of the events typical to "pro wrestling", placed near the top of the article, informing laymen about what it really is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JeR (talk • contribs) 06:22, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
- Yeah. It's really quite useless as a Wikipedia article because of all the fanbois like Dante rushing to revert edits and write in biased prose. The point of Wikipedia is to explain what X is quickly, efficiently, and completely to someone who doesn't know what X is. If someone from another country where scripted wrestling matches do not exist but competitive wrestling SPORT does were to look this up, they would not actually figure out from this article that it is scripted theater. The first paragraph, or right after it, is where it needs to be clarified. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.96.36.199 (talk) 01:23, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
I OBJECT to the term "scripted theater" in that throwaway sense -- especially in the historical sense. The history of pro wrestling is that it has become more and more scripted, that is true, but in the early days all the wrestlers got was a quick play by play from the promoter and a desired finish. THEY (the performers) had to fill out a 20 or 40 or 60 minute match themselves, with a high degree of creativity and originality. The entire concept of "selling" the opponent's moves is missing from the article -- scripted matches would often go off-script if something was found to work (generate "heat") more than something else. IN the modern age, where matches are akin to television shows -- yes, much more is scripted move by move. But even in that highly-scripted environment, there is still an enormous amount of competititon for fan reaction, for generating "heat", for being "put over" and so forth. You don't just get titles and title shots by virtue of seniority in a company -- as you might get a promotion at an office. You get them because whatever you are doing -- whatever you are innovating -- is generating a connection with the fans in the audience. When Stan Stasiak was told he was going to be honored with the WWWF belt (in 1973), he couldn't believe it -- the honor of it almost brought him to tears. These things are NOT NEARLY the same as being told that one's character in a scripted production of "Othello" is going to get more lines, or one's TV character is going to get more exposure. Why? Because generating HEAT is something that a pro wrestler EARNS HIMSELF OR HERSELF. In that respect, oh yes, it is a very, very competitive sport. The focus is not on who wins matches -- but on who has shown their management that they have the skills, athletic prowess and ability to generate heat. THAT is the real sport, not measured in pinfalls and match wins (though as a wrestler shows that he has heat, he will - if management is savvy -- eventually get more wins in the ring. That is why this entire notion of "oh wrestling is fake" is so wrong-headed. They are looking at the wrong metrics. It is like judging the durability of a rock group by how well they sing -- rather than the records they sell. Chesspride 188.8.131.52 (talk) 04:10, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
It needs editing, desperately. It reeks of bias; such as the part about how some independent wrestlers are more talents/charismatic than mainstream wrestlers, it is not needed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.108.40.206 (talk) 00:32, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
- It reads very good to me. And it is true, there are some indy guys who are better than some of WWE's top guys. --DanteAgusta (talk) 00:55, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
- It is merely opinion, and propaganda. I mean, come on, take a look at it:
"many of the "workers" aren't as chiseled as the ones on television broadcasts" - That isn't relevant at all. "Still, many local wrestlers are extremely talented, with some grapplers' techniques and charisma surpassing some of those on broadcasts of the WWE or TNA" - Once again, irrelevant. "Independent wrestlers normally have "shoot jobs" and usually wrestle for the love of the business only, since most paydays are pretty low" - Blatantly untrue AND irrelevant.
I have written a temporal replacement until someone can write a better one. It is far superior than the previous one though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.127.116.11 (talk) 21:14, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
Stop removing my post
i keep adding hhh, taker and hbk and someone keeps removing it. Theres allot of nerds here but that one specific nerd should cut it out. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.104.22.168 (talk) 19:40, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
- Those names are not house hold names. Read the whole sentence. The ones posted are known by non wrestling fans during their respected times. People who know nothing of wrestling knew something about that person. Triple H, Undertaker, HBK are all great wrestlers, but they are not known outside of wrestling to the degree that the others were/are. --DanteAgusta (talk) 21:59, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
- It has been confirmed that in Canada Bret Hart is a house hold name. The guy was on the Simpsons for Pete's sake. --DanteAgusta (talk) 22:22, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
Adhering to kayfabe
I've noticed that most wrestling articles (I'm putting this in this article because it's the centerpoint of the wrestling articles) are writting a manner that adheres to kayfabe. For example, many wrestlers' biographies are written in a style that you would normally expect to find on kayfabe websites.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't this mean that the articles are written in an in-universe format? I haven't been on Wikipedia for long, but long enough to know that in-universe style of writing is frowned upon. Sure, there are some articles on fictional characters that are mostly in in-universe format, but the doors are wide open for anyone who has sufficient sources to rewrite the article in an out-of-universe style (such as talking about how the character is written, as opposed to what we see on TV).
Shouldn't these wrestling articles be rewritten in a similar manner? For example, Petey Williams didn't loose the Off-the-Wagon Challenge; the TNA writers used it to write out his character to cover up for his release. I think this would be a drastic improvement in the quality of wrestling articles, to the point where some may get nominated for featured articles. Thank you.Wikieditor1988 (talk) 01:48, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
- Can't you just put in parenthesis why he lost the match? It treats them like it treats TV shows. It doesn't mention "so and so was killed off due to a contract dispute."22.214.171.124 (talk) 03:07, 7 May 2010 (UTC)belthistoryguy
- By that same token, the idea that professional wrestling has rules (like a game or sport) seems kayfabe. Perhaps this section could be reworked as a description of the kayfabe style of stage production. After all, the breaking of these "rules" is written into the act, they are really just another part of imagining pro-wrestling as a competitive sport.126.96.36.199 (talk) 22:33, 16 October 2010 (UTC)wood0465
Add some warnings?
I think "don't try this at home" warnings should be added. Or at least it should be explained that the moves (if done for real) can be very harmful and even lethal. While you argue if it's "fake" or not, someone could try to jump from 2m and hit someone else in the head with his knee.. (188.8.131.52 (talk) 00:25, 22 February 2010 (UTC))
- I don't see the point of putting warning signs everywhere. Everyone in their right mind will know that it is dangerous to jump of a ladder face down. Also, most people who read this are either fans or haters. Either of them will know this. Fans see the warnings in each TV show after each commercial break. And, putting in too many warnings will cause the loss of effect for real important warnings. Finally, when will all the warning stop? Somewhere common sense needs to kick in. Darwin will take care of the rest... PeterE23 (talk) 21:10, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
Unfortunately, that "Darwin will take care of the rest" mentality also leads to the deaths of children who are too young to know better. You should be ashamed of yourself for saying they should be killed off just because you don't want to have warnings. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.108.40.206 (talk) 09:35, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
There's no mention of any professional wrestling history here as such. Surely the concept of the evolution from catch wrestling to professional wrestling (as well as it's reasons) should be mentioned as well as the history of territories giving way to a monopoly (obviously whilst avoiding overlap with the article WWE). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.127.116.11 (talk) 18:12, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
The phrase in question is "working the marks". The word "marks" is currently pointing to this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_%28victim%29
However, the link that the word SHOULD go to is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_professional_wrestling_terms#Mark
yeah, I agree. It's United States/Canada. I've been thinking about it for a while, and while Mexico and Japan could be said to have originated their specific styles or sub-genres of pro wrestling, the parent genre (ie, this article's subject) definitely originated in the US and Canada. Same with Brazil.
As far as UK/Ireland and Pakistan go, I can see the argument of "catch" wrestling originating in Britain, and traditional folk wrestling developing in the middle east, but those are ancestor arts, and those locations were not where the development of this article's subject took place. And why anyone decided to tack Germany on there, I have no idea.
Professional Wrestling has it's roots in the traveling circuit of Europe; specifically Ireland and Britain. Simply watch any pro. wrestling documentary. To leave this out is ridiculous. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.104.22.168 (talk) 21:07, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
Spoilers being allowed
By defult how can spoilers be allowed? Until it's shown on TV how can any spoiler be allowed to go under pro-wrestling title reigns and other articles? I thought Wikipedia disallowed independent research? Isn't taking and using spoilers using independent research? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 22.214.171.124 (talk) 02:51, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
Inferno match redirect
How long the secret has been out
I first read an article about pro wrestling being sports entertainment back in 1969, when one wrestler was describing how he and his "opponent" discussed who would "win". Anyone else have an idea of how long ago it became more common knowledge than "inside info" that the matches are largely fixed (predetermined)? --Uncle Ed (talk) 05:46, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
- It's very hard to say, for a number of reasons. It depends on where you're talking about, and what degree of notoriety counts as "common knowledge". And to begin with, for there to even *be* a secret to hide or know, one would have to determine a point after which a majority of wrestling exhibitions were "fixed". I've actually been trying to research that specific issue off-and-on in my free time for the last few months, and haven't come close to what I feel would be a definitive answer.
- But to answer your question, it probably could have been considered an open secret in the 1930s at the latest, but perhaps as early as the 1880s. I would be very interested to read this article you mentioned. -TravelingCat (talk) 04:43, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
- It had a reputation when I was growing up in the 1970s of the competitions being faked, but this was not openly acknowledged. In fact, people that I knew in the 1980s and 1990s did not believe that it was faked and openly disagreed with its characterization that way. Because of the intensity of these fans' belief that it was authentic and the marketing campaigns that portrayed wrestling as if it were authentic wrestling competitions, New York State, where many of the competitions took place, had begun a governmental initiative to regulate "professional wrestling" in the late 1990s, similar to the way that professional boxing is NY state regulated. This forced the 2 wrestling federations to make public statements saying that their competitions were, in fact, "staged competitions". That is the reason why there is no governmental regulation of wrestling as there currently is of professional boxing. That should actually be included in this article (if it is not already). But this whole circumstance of staged versus real came to a head at this juncture of the late 1990s, early 2000s, and the corresponding movement to regulate these activities. Stevenmitchell (talk) 02:19, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
According to this academic article, fixing matches became popular as a result of a disappointing 1911 match between Frank Gotch and George Hackenschmidt:
- "The failure of these two matches to satisfy audiences, and the accusations of fraud marked a temporary decline in the popularity of wrestling that lasted until the late 1920's."(21) The matches between Gotch and Hackenschmidt presented huge problems for professional wrestling. The first match, like almost all matches at the time, was much too long for fans to enjoy. Furthermore, it was incredibly slow paced. The second match saw Gotch "work" Hackenschmidt's leg and cause him considerable pain in a demonstration of just how dangerous professional wrestling could be. Additionally, while the brevity of the match was unusual, it reinforced the feeling that the times of matches needed to be controlled.
- These concerns ultimately led to professional wrestling's transformation from contest to show. However, fixing the matches didn't exactly fix professional wrestling. By the mid 1920's almost all competition was gone from professional wrestling, causing a minor resurgence in popularity. Unfortunately, it also posed a whole new set of problems. "When the 'fix' was inadvertently discovered fans were outraged (Note: For example, once in 1929 in New York City, a drunken press agent accidentally released all the next night's winners to the newspapers.)
Interesting read. InedibleHulk (talk) 12:35, March 4, 2013 (UTC) http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Professional_wrestling&action=edit§ion=15#
I don't know about the USA, but in the UK the 'secret' was officially revealed during the late 1970s as a result of a court case. An African-born wrestler known as Masambula had been injured in a contest when he was thrown against a corner post, and the protective padding gave way. He alleged that the protective padding was not properly attached, and sued the promoters for negligence. During the trial evidence was given, and accepted by both sides, that the contest had been planned to end in a certain way, but was cut short by the accidental injury.126.96.36.199 (talk) 12:59, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
Record On Professional Wrestlers Like Boxers
- I have no idea what your heading means, nor what "mark bait" is, but if you aren't an administrator, you can't delete it. --Dweller (talk) 10:33, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
Neutral notice of an RfC
A Request for Comment has been posted for an article on which you have been an editor. If you wish to comment, go to Talk:List of African-American firsts# Request for Comment: Pro wrestling. --Tenebrae (talk) 12:11, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
This article currently  is far closer to Start than to C class, but is rated C class. I quote the WikiProject Professional wrestling criteria (in part):
Start class articles Detailed criteria: The article has a usable amount of good content but is weak in many areas, usually in referencing. Quality of the prose may be distinctly unencyclopedic, and MoS compliance non-existent; but the article should satisfy fundamental content policies, such as notability and BLP, and provide enough sources to establish verifiability. No Start-Class article should be in any danger of being speedily deleted. Editing suggestions: Providing references to reliable sources should come first; the article also needs substantial improvement in content and organisation.
C class articles Detailed criteria: The article is better developed in style, structure, and quality than Start-Class. Editing suggestions: Considerable editing is needed to close gaps in content and solve cleanup problems.
To avoid dabbling in original research, we are not even at liberty to look at all the rule sets (which are primary sources - even if we could find them) and compare them to come up with the core rules. We need instead to find secondary sources, writers who have already done this, and report their conclusions and cite them. We are even less at liberty to take comments from match commentaries, whether the sound track on YouTube or published in a news service, and work out from these what the rules must be for a spectacle that has not published its rules. This again is original research. Now note that the only two references currently in the rules section are of exactly the wrong sort... one of them a YouTube with an audio commentary, the other a news website commentary, both of particular matches.
And its structure needs a complete rethink. There was no History section at all despite a request for one above dating from 2010. I have started it by separating out some of the lead and adding a main link to the existing (genuinely C class) article History of professional wrestling . But there's still only one reference in this section, and this one is to the FILA site, dedicated to genuinely competitive wrestling . It is a reliable secondary source at least, so it is far better than nothing but barely on-topic.
I was tempted to boldly change the class to Start, but on reflection have instead requested reassessment by the apparently active WikiProject. 
The alternative I suppose is to remove the unsourced material, which is nearly all of it if the rules and history sections are anything to go by, and instead make it into a good stub. Andrewa (talk) 03:56, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
"Kayfabe" is a technical term. Although it is explained, the whole article is so long that a reader wanting to know what this word means (seeing it as a section title), is left baffled, since the section itself assumes the reader knows the meaning of the term.188.8.131.52 (talk) 10:14, 16 October 2013 (UTC)