Talk:Proto-Elamite

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Standards[edit]

This page does not live up to the standards of Wikipedia nor those of any other respectable on-line encyclopedia. I urge the board to take down all pages concerning the early history of Iran for careful editing. I just removed the link to proto-Elamite tablets from Jiroft (under corpus). JLD 20070718

I will delete most of the content of this page later this week, and write a very short paragraph with a current bibliography, if no one objects, or will do it themselves. There are simply too many factual errors here. Jacob Dahl 20060531


See also http://www.cdli.ucla.edu:16080/wiki/index.php/Proto-Elamite which is a work in progress by the Cuneiform Digital Library Initiative (CDLI). There may be some problems viewing this on PC, especially using IE.


The image on the right has nothing to do with proto-Elamite, the inscription appears to be linear-Elamite (ca. 2300 - 2100 BC), although it is perhaps a fake. Jacob Dahl

The item is an actual articfact at the National Museum of Iran. It also appears in their catalog publications.--Zereshk 19:37, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
It does not matter where the item is on display, the inscription is not proto-Elamite, but linear-Elamite, a writing system most likely not related to proto-Elamite. It is even likely to be a modern fake, especially the inscription. Jacob Dahl, Max Planck Institute for the History of Science, Berlin.
I didnt write the text. maybe just the last paragraph was mine. But I can check on the cup and give you more info on it.--Zereshk 04:46, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, what I am saying is only that the object (silver vessel) is not dating to the proto-Elamite period. If someone says it does, or if there is a sign in the National Museum of Iran that says it does, is really irrelevant, it remains certain that it is not a proto-Elamite object. Even with the terrible situation at Susa (lack of stratigraphy) we are able to reconstruct some facts, and one of these is that proto-Elamite date to around 3000 BCE, and linear-Elamite to around 2300-2100 BCE. Now when an unprovenienced object (your cup) shows up with a linear-Elamite inscription on it, it will be dated to that period (i.e. 2300-2100 BCE). There are a lot of scholars who think like me, that this object may be a fake; further, it may be wise to put here on wikipedia an image of one of the Susa objects, rather than unprovenienced objects. If no one objects I will re-write the proto-Elamite and linear-Elamite articles on wikipedia, following our on-line education pages at the Cuneiform Digital Library Initiative CDLI. Jacob Dahl, 02.06.2006.
Please do go ahead with the re-write. And if you keep the paragraph I added, all the better. Regarding the cup, I will contact the National Museum of Iran in the next few days. I'd like to see what they explain about your objection. Their catalog says it is a depiction of a Goddess and they even provide a deciphered translation of the text on the cup.--Zereshk 03:32, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Fine with me. Who is your contact at the museum, if I may ask? I have begun reformatting the article, and found that there is already a stub article on proto-Elamite script, I will merge it with this. I will also write a brief article on linear-Elamite. However, my contributions will always be cooked down versions of the educational pages that I edit on-line for the Cuneiform Digital Library Initiative (CDLI). I hope someone will add to the article. Jacob Dahl, 20060604

For the record, the Vase discussed here (and now removed from this page) was first published by Walter Hinz in his book Altiranische Funde und Forschungen, Berlin 1969, p. 11 ff. It is commonly known as Inscription Q from the corpus of Linear-Elamite inscriptions. Hinz describes the circumstances of its discovery on pages 11-12. Jacob Dahl, 20060608

I havent yet contacted anybody there yet. Im too busy on other fronts and with real life problems (and Im sure you were too, with all the World Cup going on there). But this info you just added helps once I do get the chance to have a chat with the curator and director (riyasat and mo'avenat) of the Museum. It would be great if you could email me your email JD. That way I can refer them to you, should there be the need.--Zereshk 01:05, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Sialk merge?[edit]

This article has to be merged with the teppe Sialk because they are both about the proto-elamite civilization. I also suggest the title to be changed to proto-elamite civilization (which is the name in the column of the iranian history.

Thats like saying Persepolis has to be merged with the Achaemenid dynasty article. Doesnt make sense now, does it?--Zereshk 21:17, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

You are absolutely right. But I'm only doing this out of respect to the person who wrote the article "teppe sialk". The thing is that whoever wrote the article (or maybe someone else?) connected that article to the history of iran column in the "iranian history" article. When you click on proto-elamite civilization you come to the teppe sialk article. Naturally the proto-elamite article should come up when you click on that, but because I didn't want to neglect the guy who wrote the teppe sialk article I suggested the articles to be merged so that when you click on proto-elamite civilization you can both read about the proto-elamites and teppe sialk. If you are the person then you can decide: 1. should the articles be merged? 2. or should the articles be seperate but then teppe sialk cannot be connected to proto-elamite civilization in the column.

I did write the Teppe Sialk article. They should be separate indeed. But I think we should fix that link youre talking about. The "proto-elamite" link should go to the "proto-elamite" article, not anywhere else. Links sometimes do get jumbled incorrectly. I think this is a technical error. I'll look to see if I can fix the problem.--Zereshk 20:52, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
I see that you already corrected the linking error. Good. I dont know how that happened in the first place.--Zereshk 20:55, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Ok, then I take the tag away from the text.

scope?[edit]

this article needs some cleanup, in particular it needs to decide whether its scope is the Proto-Elamite script, or the early period of Elam as a whole. Also, we need a Category:Elam to group these articles. dab () 10:52, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Scope must be to build a scholarly article on Proto-Elamtie.

Proto-Elamite is the conventional name in the field for the writing system. This article was a compressed version of the article I am editing on the closed wiki pages of the cdli project [1] [ [2] ]. If this page gets too messed up I can not help here any more.

Re latest edits: Proto-Elamite was not used for writing Elamite.

If you like, the main page should be Iran, then History of Iran, then divided into archaeological and historical periods. Proto-Elamite could then be placed under either Iranian Bronze Age civilizations, or something like that, or under Iranian pre-history. Elam is, as has been discussed in length, the Mesopotamian name for the Iranian highlands.

Jacob L. Dahl, Berlin, 20060811 —Preceding unsigned comment added by JacobLDahl (talkcontribs)

yes? I don't understand the reason for your complaint on my talkpage, or why you think the page is being 'messed up'. I did some straightforward cleanup per WP:MoS. The article currently addresses two separate topics, the civilization and the script: I haven't introduced this dichotomy. You seem to be arguing that this article should be about the script, not about the period in general. That's fine, I don't mind this. You should then go and fix {{History of Iran}} not to link here. Alternatively, we could make this a disambiguation page between Proto-Elamite script and Proto-Elamite period. I realize that the script being undeciphered there can be no definite statement regarding the underlying language. dab () 12:19, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
in fact, I now realize that you have messed up the article: You added important information, but you deleted much of what had been here before [3]. What's going on? It may be arguable to merge the material of the script into the article on the period, but you cannot just remove material on the period because you think the script article belongs here. I suggest we cleanly split it again, dealing with the script at Proto-Elamite script. dab () 12:43, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


There is not really a proto-Elamite period strictly speaking. Actually I don't care how this is done. But as soon as I see stuff like proto-Elamite was used to write Elamite, etc. (and I checked around earlier on the entire Wiki, finding a lot of this stuff, Including an image of the famous silver Vase which was also on this page earlier, still with the title telling us that the inscription is proto-elammite), then my red-flag goes up. Please edit, change, do all you like, but keep it correct. Again, make this page proto-Elamite writing system (do avoid script) if you care, and make proto-elamite a page about the supposed civilization. Dahl 20060811 Ps. I have only removed incorrect data, or changed anything after making known for a long time on discussion page that I intended to do so. I am no experienced wiki-user, and will never be (too much work). If my help with these pages is not wanted then ok I will stop keeping an eye on them. I tried today to clean up links across the wiki since I think all these links should go to this article, alas I have changed some five links and erased an insignificant stub concerning proto-elamite (which can be re-inserted if need be). Pps. we should be able to solve this on amicable terms, I have no interest vested in this, apart from helping out with this article. I believed the best would be to simply copy my article from CDLI wiki, and cook it down. I have since learned that Wiki is a fighting ground for all kinds of ism's and ideologies, when it comes to Iran, the aim of many seems primarily to be to try and prove the superiority of Iran's cultural heritage. Ppps. sory if my complaints on your talk page irritated you, that was unintentional. I found (in the middlle of a lot of work) that the initiative I had made to clean uup the proto-elamite page was being edited withhout any prior notice, I was a bit surprised.


proto-Elamite ?[edit]

The silver vase which is once again to be found on this page is a possible fake with a linear-Elamite inscription on it. Not proto-Elamite.

J. Dahl, Berlin 20060812

Email[edit]

Jacob,

I finally sent an email to the National Museum of Iran regarding the authenticity of the vase and the inscription.

I CC'd you the email. Your mpiwg-berli.mpg.de email address rejected it.

Anyway, here's the email I sent them:

Dear National Museum of Iran,

Salam,

I am Nima Kasraie of the University of Texas Health Science Center. I sometimes write articles on the cultural heritage of Iran, mostly for American audiences.

There is a question regarding the authenticity of a particular vase, the picture of which I have attached with this email. The picture comes from one of your recent catalogs.

Jacob Dahl, of the Max Planck Institute for the History of Science, Berlin, also associated with CDLI ( http://www.cdli.ucla.edu/ ) believes that there are 2 problems with the vase. He says you are incorrect about the information written in the catalog:

1. You claim that the vase is proto-elamite. However this is questionable since the inscription on it is "linear-Elamite" which dates it to roughly 2300-2100 BCE. And Linear-Elamite, is a writing system most likely not related to proto-Elamite. The Vase discussed here was first published by Walter Hinz in his book Altiranische Funde und Forschungen, Berlin 1969, p. 11 ff. It is commonly known as Inscription Q from the corpus of Linear-Elamite inscriptions. Hinz describes the circumstances of its discovery on pages 11-12.

2. The vase is possibly a fake, especially the inscription, according to Jacob Dahl. Is this true? If not, please explain.

You may respond directly to Dr. Dahl here: http://cdli.ucla.edu/Staff/dahl.html

Or, respond to me (in English or Farsi), and I will forward your response to him, and clear this matter up.

Thank You.

Baa ehteraam,

Nima Kasraie

I dont know if and when I'll get a response. But if I do, I'll put you in the loop.--Zereshk 10:31, 25 September 2006 (UTC)


Notice[edit]

Thanks for publishing my e-mail address!! I disengage myself from this wiki-page, there is now more incorrect than correct information. Please in the future do not write e-mails on my behalf or publish my address on the web. Thank you, J. Dahl

Jacob,
Nobody has your email. Not even me. My email to you was rejected. However, I do reserve the right to let people know who and where you are associated with. And you were the one who made the claim of the vase being fake. If you do not wish to stand up to your claim, then simply dont make it.
Anyway, I received a fax last week from The National Museum of Iran. I can upload or send you a scan of the response. But it is in Persian. Summary:
  1. They do not claim responsibility for the catalog that claims the inscription is proto-Elamite. (I think they are agreeing with you about the inscription)
  2. They claim that the article in question is not fake, and have asked you, or anybody else, to present evidence of it being fake. However, in light of your claim of it being fake, they will run some xrf tests to further determine the authenticity of the vase. They will fax me the results, and publish them as well. I will upload it here as well for everyone to peruse.--Zereshk 03:27, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

The silver vase in question is not a fake. Doubts about its authenticity are largely disproved now through the discovery of a very similar silver vase during legitimate archeological excavations. For additional information please consult the following:

Kohl, P. L. (2007), The making of Bronze Age Eurasia, Cambridge, Figure 5.12c.

Potts, D. T. (2008), "Puzur-Inshushinak and the Oxus Civilization (BMAC): Reflections on Shimashki and the geo-political landscape of Iran and Central Asia in the Ur III period", Zeirschrift fur assyriologie, Bd. 98, S. 165-194.

Sarianidi, V. I. (2005), Gonurdepe, city of kings and gods, pp. 250-252, and Figs. 95-97, Ashgabat, Turkmanistan

Khersak, 3 June 2009 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Khersak (talkcontribs) 03:03, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

'Proto-Elamite' misnomer[edit]

I love the way the article includes the relevant fact that the assignment of 'proto-elamite' is purely a scholarly assumption (and probably a bad one). Considering the script ('proto-elamite') is most likely the first syllabic language, it is clear why there is no relation to it, and linear-elamite : because Linear Elamite, which we know the Elamites used, is characterized by a completely different tongue. A more accurate term which should emerge is 'Susanian'. If anyone has more information regarding the misnomer, please add a section.

Furthermore, given the nearly parallel emergence of susanian and sumerian, the fact that early representations of Susanian are ideographic and such a rapid shift is made towards syllabic (if indeed, it becomes syllabic), may be taken to suggest that the origin of written language is Susa.


— Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.196.88.228 (talk) 00:56, 14 April 2013 (UTC) 
That does sound like a reasonable argument, and I'm sure you mean well. But really all we can do here is find what the experts say and then cite them, so if you have any source making any of these claims, then maybe we could add them into the article. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 01:17, 14 April 2013 (UTC)