Talk:Provisional Government of Western Thrace

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There is an article as "Gumuljine Republic". as you see in new article "Turkish Republic of Western Thrace", I transferred all content from "Gumuljine Republic" article. (categries, stubs etc. all of them). "Gumuljine Republic" is a dummy/artificial name. A republic wlth this name never took a palce in history. I will take back this merging/discuss remark back with assuming that all of you will ve judicious. Regards Mustafa Akalp 17:17, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

link

the second link cited in the article under external links doesn't work.. Baristarim 02:16, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Turkish name

Turkish name of the state should be Garbi Trakya Mustakil Hukumeti, It was not called as a republic.--Hattusili 10:37, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Title restored

Mustafa, please understand that the original name of this article in Wikipedia was Republic of Gumuljina. Then you create your POV-titled fork Turkish Republic of Western Thrace (which only gets one Google hit, some web forum [1]). When the article was restored to its original location, you reverted that calling it "Vandal revert" [2]. This is not how articles are renamed; if you want to rename the article, cite your sources first.--Tekleni 10:23, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Before I get involved here, can somebody give me a translation of "müstakil" in "müstakil hükümeti"? Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:04, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

müstakil means 'own'. --Xsara 11:17, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Translation word by word

• "Garbi Trakya Müstakil Hükümeti"; Ottoman language.

Garbi, Garp->Gar(b)-i; Batı-Turkish, Belong to West/Western-English"" (sorry for first translation)
Trakya; Trakya-Turkish, Thrace-English""
Müstakil; Bağımsız-Turkish, Independent-English""
Hükümet-i; Devlet-Turkish, Government/State-English""

Regards Mustafa Akalp 11:20, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the translation. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:57, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Does anyone have any idea how it would have been written in the original Ottoman-Arabic script (the script that was used when the entity actually existed)? I guess it would have been something like گرب تراقيا مستقيل هىقىمىت, but perhaps someone actually in Turkey could find out for sure.--Tekleni 14:07, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Also, are we sure that in the Ottoman version it's Garbi and not Garbı? What about vowel harmony?--Tekleni 14:18, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

And how come it's not just Batı Trakya Bağımsız Devleti in modern Turkish?--Tekleni 14:20, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps because the pattern "[point-of-the-compass]+[geographical-unit]+Turk+Cumhuriyeti" just sounds generally nicer? :-P Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:30, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Find your friends at Category:User osm :-) But I think your version doesn't look too right. The "ü"s in "hukumet"/"hükümet" would have been waws, for one thing. And I think vowel harmony didn't apply that strictly in Ottoman, because of the many Persian/Arab loan morphological patterns. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:20, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm Greek - a pronounce all "ü"s like all Greeks do ;-) --Tekleni 14:24, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Cool down

Okay guys, before everybody gets even more upset, can we agree on the following please:

• The history merger between the two articles, as such, was technically necessary. There was no need for discussion about that in itself, simple admin housekeeping.
• Now that the article is properly united in one place, you are all free and at leasure to decide on what the final title is going to be. Please take it easy, leave the status quo as is for the moment, and discuss where you want it.
• No matter under which title it ends up, we will of course have all the alternative appelations mentioned and there will be redirects from them, so that everybody will be able to find it easily from their preferred name.
• I'd like to see something more than google counts - can somebody quote what the actual English-speaking academic literature calls it? Anybody got a few books about the Balkan wars? Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:57, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

there are no sources for this in the english speaking academia because it didnt exist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.74.251.24 (talk) 14:25, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Flag

Here is a source for the flag (of the Republic of Gumuljina as they call it) [3].--Tekleni 14:35, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Flag and Name

Flag of Turkish Republic of Western Thrace Here is the source for flag and name of the state.It is obviously determined as;
Turkish; Tarihteki ilk Türk cumhuriyeti olan Batı Trakya Türk Cumhuriyeti bayrağı.
English; The flag of Turkish Republic of Western Thrace which is the first Turkish republic in the history. Gümülcine/Gumuljine is a city only(Capital city of state). This is another example of nationalist Greek approach to the events. By the rename a state (by its capital city's name), somebody tries to degrade the importance of a historical state. What is the next step?

Regards. Mustafa Akalp 17:03, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

We want to know what the most common name in English is, not Turkish, see WP:NAME. Useful source though, this sources the Turkish name in the intro (and refutes my modern Turkish suggestion above).--Tekleni 17:09, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Also, look who's talking about renaming places: Konstantinopolis > İstanbul.--Tekleni 17:10, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

In English this state is called "Provisional Government of Western Thrace" (see: Richard C. Hall, Balkan Wars 1912-1913: Prelude to the First World War, Routledge, October 2000, page 126)--Hattusili 05:08, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Do you know other international literature that talks in detail about this republic? It is so difficult to find information about it. However thanks for the tip about Richard C. Hall. I will buy it. I hope he talks in detail about this republic.

Dr. Tahir Tamer Kumkale tells in [4] that the name of the republic was "Provisional Government of Western Thrace" (Garbi Trakya Hükumeti Muvakkatesi) from 1. September 1913 until 12. September 1913. On 12. September they changed the name to "Independent Government of Western Thrace" (Garbi Trakya Müstakil Hükumeti) --Moorudd 08:56, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Hey, great, this is getting interesting. Weird syntax too. Is this a Persian "izafet" construction between "Hükümet-i Muvakkate", and then outside that a Turkish possessive construction "Trakya [Hükümet-i Muvakkate]si" ? Wow. :-) Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:35, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Ottoman language was a mix of Turkish,Persian and Arabic(in words, and in grammar). Here is persian grammatic is used. ie: Pen of Mustafa-> Kalem-î Mustafa. In modern Turkish order is opposite; Mustafa(nın) Kalem(i).
Here, î(Persian) & i(Turkish) give the same meaning : belong to. Due to the place of main word in sentence. The same word in different order; Give me (the/this/that) pen ; Kalem(i) ver. Here i, has a different meaning.Used for definition of the object.

Bir şey değil/ "For nothing"(No need thanks) _{Mustafa Akalp}^{(T) (C)} 11:07, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, that's just what I meant. The "-i" in "Hükumeti" must be the Persian one, the "-si" in "Muvakkatesi" the Turkish one. Great mix. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:02, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

References

Shouldn't there be a wider variety of references? The only references in this article are a few Turkish books of unknown quality/reliability. There is not one sentence which has a citation. Somebody should add the tag "this article does not cite its references, etc." Kalambaki2 22:47, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Border details request

I am struggling to collect more data about the territories that the republic encompassed in order to generate a map. Any old maps and information about the republic's borders and settlements are welcomed. --Chech Explorer (talk) 11:42, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

You should start by searching for an ottoman map of Edirne Vilayet that shows the different sancaks. The borders, according to this reference in greek http://www.xanthi.ilsp.gr/thraki/history/his.asp?perioxhid=N0143 , comprised mainly of the Gumulcine sancak, the kazas of Kirdhjali and Ortakoy from Edirne sancak, and the kazas of Dedeagach and Sufli from Dedeagac sancak. I am not quite sure about the other kazas of Dedeagac sancak though, or of the Tamrash region in the NW of the area. The current map used is wrong though, the western border was at Nestos-Mesta river (not Strymonas-Strumca) and the northeastern kazas of Chirmen and probably Dimetoka were not included. --193.92.245.199 (talk) 23:53, 17 December 2010 (UTC)--Japetusgr (talk) 08:31, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

I agree on what you say about the borders. I have found a source according to which the republic had Nestos and Maritsa for borders but I am not sure about the northern border. I have also some information about what happened in the region of Nevrokop and how the republic was brought there. --Chech Explorer (talk) 03:09, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

The northern borders of the time (Eastern Rumelia/Bulgaria - Ottoman empire)are depicted in detail at the Austrohungarian maps of 1910 (You have to know where to look though, an image search for 'Edirne vilayet' in google will show you up a couple of very interesting sketches-maps, and will serve as a guide). The main problem is to determine exactly which of the city areas (kazas) inside the west of the Maritsa part of the Edirne vilayet actually took part at the movement. The source I give above shows some light (you can use an online translator) but more details are needed.. --Japetusgr (talk) 09:07, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

How can the borders from 1913 be depicted on a map from 1910? --Chech Explorer (talk) 13:01, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

The northern borders, i.e. the ones between Ottoman Thrace (Edirne vilayet) and Bulgaria (Eastern Rumelia at the time) were determined as early as 1878 with the Congress of Berlin (1887) which followed the Russo-Turkish War (1877–1878) and remained practically the same with only exception being the disputed areas concerning the Tamrash and Kirdjali villages which were given later to the Ottoman empire. It was only the former ottoman region that rebelled, as they didn't want to be annexed to Bulgaria, according to the Treaty of Bucharest (1913) which followed the Second Balkan War. In some references about this territory (and also in French and German wiki), is said to have borders also at the river Arda east of the Ortakoy(=Ivailovgrad) kaza, down to Maritza, but of course this needs to be verified and cross-referenced with other sources.. --Japetusgr (talk) 16:36, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Original documents needed

I am afraid this "Republic" seems like the result of reverse engineering. I can imagine that a couple of Muslim dignitaries in Gyumyurdjina gathered together to take over after the withdrawal of the Bulgarian troops. It is obvious, however, that they were Ottoman sockpuppets. No good Ottoman Muslim would risk his head by declaring a Republic. Moreover, I don't see any account of the ethnic cleansing that the militias of this entity perpetrated against the ethnic Bulgarians in Western Thrace. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vladko (talk • contribs) 16:47, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Republic of Gumuljina ???

• Republic of Gumuljina - 1 hit.
• Provisional Government of Western Thrace - 13 hit.
• Independent Government of Western Thrace - 5 hit.

We must prefer to Provisional Government of Western Thrace as title of this article. Thanks. Takabeg (talk) 13:03, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

History / Dates

I find the first paragraph concerning the historical background of the area incorrect. Concerning the following part:

'The territory was created during the Second Balkan War by a joint rebellion of Turks and Pomaks against the withdrawing Bulgarian forces who had recently annexed the region. It survived for 3 months, between two Balkan treaties; between the May 1913 Treaty of London and the August 1913 Treaty of Bucharest that ended the Second Balkan War. It was founded as a provisional state, in order to be annexed by Ottoman Empire again. However, Greek forces occupied major cities (Porto Lagos, Komotini and Alexandroupolis) and handed them over to Bulgaria, according to the terms of the Treaty of Bucharest (1913). '

• The territory was not created during the second balkan war (June 16th - Treaty of Bucharest (Aug 10th)), but afterwards. It was by the treaty that the area was to be handed to Bulgaria and that was the cause of the rebellion. It survived from August 16th until October 30th with the bilateral Treaty of Constantinople (1913). (See, under Pomaks)
• The greek forces had nothing to do with this state, the citation is misleading. In 1913 the area was part of the Ottoman empire. During the second balkan war, the greek forces indeed occupied these areas on July 14th but were forced to hand it to Bulgaria by the treaty of Bucharest. That was the cause that moved the citizens of the area to declare their independence. The greek government did not interfere again in the area, respecting the treaty, and the handling back to Bulgaria of the autonomous region was agreed between Bulgaria and Ottoman Empire by the bilateral Treaty of Constantinople (1913).
• I have also not seen any official sources stating that 'It was founded as a provisional state, in order to be annexed by Ottoman Empire again'

--Japetusgr (talk) 08:31, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

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