Talk:Pseudoscience

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
          This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
WikiProject Skepticism (Rated B-class, Top-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Skepticism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of science, pseudoscience, pseudohistory and skepticism related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Top  This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Sociology (Rated B-class, Mid-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Sociology, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Sociology on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Mid  This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Alternative medicine (Rated B-class)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Alternative medicine, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Alternative medicine related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the quality scale.
 
WikiProject Alternative Views (Rated B-class, Top-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Alternative Views, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of significant alternative views in every field, from the sciences to the humanities. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Top  This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Philosophy (Rated B-class, Mid-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Philosophy, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of content related to philosophy on Wikipedia. If you would like to support the project, please visit the project page, where you can get more details on how you can help, and where you can join the general discussion about philosophy content on Wikipedia.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Mid  This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Science (Rated B-class, Top-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Science, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Science on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Top  This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
Arbitration Committee Decisions on Pseudoscience

The Arbitration Committee has issued several principles which may be helpful to editors of this and other articles when dealing with subjects and categories related to "pseudoscience".

Principles
Four groups
Please read before starting

Untitled[edit]

First of all, welcome to Wikipedia's Pseudoscience article. This article represents the work of many contributors and much negotiation to find consensus for an accurate and complete representation of the topic.

Newcomers to Wikipedia and this article may find that it's easy to commit a faux pas. That's OK — everybody does it! You'll find a list of a few common ones you might try to avoid here.

A common objection made often by new arrivals is that the article presents the fields it lists as "pseudoscience" in an unsympathetic light or violates Wikipedia's Neutral Point of View policy (WP:NPOV). The sections of the WP:NPOV that apply directly to this article are:

The contributors to the article continually strive to adhere to these to the letter. Also, splitting the article into sub-articles is governed by the Content forking guidelines.

These policies have guided the shape and content of the article, and new arrivals are strongly encouraged to become familiar with them prior to raising objections on this page or adding content to the article. Other important policies guiding the article's content are No Original Research (WP:NOR) and Cite Your Sources (WP:CITE).

Tempers can and have flared here. All contributors are asked to please respect Wikipedia's policy No Personal Attacks (WP:NPA) and to abide by consensus (WP:CON).

Notes to editors:
  1. This article uses scientific terminology, and as such, the use of the word 'theory' to refer to anything outside of a recognised scientific theory is ambiguous. Please use words such as 'concept', 'notion', 'idea', 'assertion'; see Wikipedia:Words to avoid#Theory.
  2. Please use edit summaries.


Something is missing here.[edit]

Currently, the opening line of the article starts like this: "Pseudoscience is a term who claim, belief, or practice which is presented..." I have no idea what "term who claim" is intended to mean, but I suspect that there's at least one word, possibly more that are missing. If anybody knows what the author intended, a bit of cleanup would be appreciated.JDZeff (talk) 16:53, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the note! I believe I have fixed the problem. In the last month or so, someone added some text making the first sentence nonsensical. I removed that text. Binksternet (talk) 17:42, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
Sry, it was me. Ain't that term a term? Or a philosophical concept? Is there such thing as pseudoscience or is it a concept in some phislosphical schools? When my add was wrong, why do you delate the source too? Curious. --WSC ® 20:37, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
Wiktionary is the online dictionary. Wikipedia tries to leave the terms to Wiktionary and instead cover concepts. Naturally, there is a bit of overlap, but I saw nothing in the Oxford dictionary source that helped to make this article more informative. Binksternet (talk) 05:56, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
Well I think you should accept first that Wiktionary is somth. different than this little The Oxford Companion to Philosophy one of the most cited and most recognized books in this subject area. And of course somthing different than this lousy self made dictionary called wiktionary. --WSC ® 15:59, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
I believe this is your source. As I said in my edit summary, it does not contain the content you added. Arc de Ciel (talk) 09:47, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
I'll cite it for you: "A term" --WSC ® 18:06, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

TED exploited by pushers of pseudoscientific ideas[edit]

Comment moved to more relevant spot at Talk:TED_(conference)#Recent_.27controversy.27. -- Brangifer (talk) 02:26, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

You need to find much better sources for this. To show that it's a notable development, or that it has affected significantly the field of pseudoscience, or it has affected the public perception of at least one pseudocientific topic, etc. --Enric Naval (talk) 17:38, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

Pseudoscience in the US military[edit]

Quackery and Mumbo-Jumbo in the U.S. Military

"Cupping, moxibustion, and battlefield acupuncture are endangering troops.
"The military uses some of the most technologically sophisticated machinery and innovative medical techniques in history. But a disturbing current of pseudoscience in the military is wasting money, perpetuating myths, and putting our troops in danger."

Brangifer (talk) 15:20, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

There is potential for some of this information, and the links within as a short paragraph. IRWolfie- (talk) 22:43, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
I agree, this seems notable enough for a brief mention. --John (talk) 05:49, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
Unless you plan on turning the article into a bunch of soapbox quotes rather than a "what it is" article, then I would stop trying to shoehorn in editorials.Tom Butler (talk) 22:37, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
We already do have a section on examples in society, IRWolfie- (talk) 14:32, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Don't forget link to "Cargo Cult" science article[edit]

Because it is an important form of pseudoscience, please add a link to Feynman's "Cargo Cult" science in the list of related Wikipedia articles. Feynman's credentials to comment on this are unassailable.

Definitions (like the one given in the first line) are more effective in a dictionary or an encyclopedic context if they can be provided without immediate recycling of all or part of the term that is being defined. A reference to the excellent article on "Science" should appear in first line, because before one can understand the differences or similarities between science and pseudoscience, they must thoroughly understand the former. Danshawen (talk) 12:35, 24 May 2013 (UTC)danshawen

Proposed edit to broaden given definition of pseudoscience[edit]

[1]

The main goal of my edit is to broaden the given definition of pseudoscience to reflect the cited fact that pseudoscience also (probably even mainly) includes doctrines that do not claim to be scientific, but that nevertheless conflict with science. I have no strong preference as to whether the material should be in the lede or elsewhere; I proposed the lede because per WP:LEDE, the proposed edit helps to define the topic and establish context. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rolf h nelson (talkcontribs) 08:11, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

I would object to such a broadening. Pseudoscience is beliefs or practices erroneously believed to be based on scientific method, and that is all it is. -- Scjessey (talk) 16:25, 27 November 2013 (UTC)
Man, by that definition, every belief or idea that is not science would be pseudoscience: every religion, all political parties, nearly every philosophy, the concepts of love and belief in good and evil, etc. That's not what pseudoscience means. If someone sloppily calls something pseudoscience that makes no claims about science one way or another that's an error, not an expanded definition that Wikipedia must recognize. DreamGuy (talk) 04:14, 28 November 2013 (UTC)
The wording is "conflict with science", not just "not science". The literature's claim is that things like qi and clairvoyance are labeled pseudoscience conflict with science in a dramatic and fundamental way that, for example, liberalism and conservatism do not. A minority of qi and clairvoyance practitioners do claim that it is science-based, just as a minority of liberals and conservatives claim their ideologies are scientific, but this is not the reason qi and clairvoyance are labeled pseudoscience. Rolf H Nelson (talk) 22:45, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
Oppose. The current definition seems appropriate and adequate. Agree with Scjessey. Conflict with science does not equal pseudoscience. - - MrBill3 (talk) 11:49, 28 November 2013 (UTC)
If nobody else thinks the current definition will cause confusion as to why non-scientific nonsense like, say, therapeutic touch belong on the list, I'll drop the proposal then. Rolf H Nelson (talk) 22:45, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
I would agree that something which overlaps into the magisterium of science is often characterised as pseudoscience. It is beyond merely "does not claim to be a science". Sources on demarcating pseudoscience that I have seen don't seem to waste any time on whether the proposed system is considered scientific or not by its proponents. If all astrology practitioners claimed astrology was a religion, but otherwise kept their practices the same, it would still be a pseudoscience in terms of the claims it makes etc. Second Quantization (talk) 12:03, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Kudos![edit]

My appreciation to all for a fine article on a subject in which I am deficient. After some study I hope to be able to contribute. Thank You all. Jwilsonjwilson (talk) 07:04, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Rescinding Proposal to expand section 4[edit]

Having looked at the article at some length, it seems to me that there is under "4 Identifying pseudoscience" a subclass which may be inadequately dealt with. Pieces of it seem currently to reside under "4.6 Personalization of issues" and "4.7 Use of misleading language". I propose to call it "4.6 Supporting or Disputing a Claim by Misuse of Logical Fallacies" and include the current 4.6 and 4.7 as 4.6.1 and 4.6.2. It could perhaps alternatively be called "4.6 Red Herring Fallacies and Other Misuses of Logic". Also under this would be:

  • Disputing a claim by postulating an ad-hoc criticism which doesn't address any point crucial to the claim (Straw man fallacy, Ignoratio elenchi)
  • Disputing (or supporting) a claim by presenting an argument which, though possible, is improbable, as though it were highly probable while ignoring more likely argument(s). (False dilemma fallacy? Argument from ignorance?)
  • Claiming a scientific debate to have been resolved, usually without clearly indicating just how, in favor of one's preferred point of view. (Appeal to authority fallacy)
  • Advertising that the claims of one's opponents have not been conclusively proven (as they cannot be in science) while neglecting to note that one's own claims have the same status. (Red Herring fallacy, aka Smoke Screen, Wild Goose Chase)
  • Rejecting a claim out of hand because 'the subject is closed'. (Argument from repetition fallacy)

Now I'm going off to see what supporting sources there may be for these as that is an important thing in Wikipedia I'm told. Also, is this a correct forum for this discussion? Jwilsonjwilson (talk) 04:31, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Have you reviewed the WP:RS guidelines? I'd advise starting by reading the existing literature first; for example, the sources already cited in this article might be a good starting point. The spirit of the guidelines, (and perhaps of science in general), is that ideally you should base your material on what your sources are saying, rather than making your own conclusions and only then later looking for sources for confirmation to back up what you've already decided the content should be. :-) Rolf H Nelson (talk) 05:07, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
Rolf, thanks for your feedback. That is pretty much why I put this into TALK instead of just editing the article. As to WP:RS, the current 4.6 has 3 items, each of which has a reference, while 4.7 has 2 items, neither of which has a reference. So I don't think my suggestion as it stands is particularly out of line with the evident current practice. Also, while I understand the felt need for Wikipedia to be a reflection of current thinking in outside sources, yet each contributor, particularly the original authors, write because they think something needs to be included, and they will quite likely include things from a point of view with which they mostly agree. While being completely unbiased is a lovely ideal, I think it honored as much in the breach as in the observance. You can usually find sources that agree with your point of view. Are they in the mainstream? Having looked around Wikipedia a bit, I have noticed the furious debates that sometimes go on around whether particular sources are indicative of mainstream opinion and/or are authoritative.
So I expect to be able to include sources, hopefully meeting the expert/authoritative criterion. Those, if acceptable, will turn my POV into unbiased reporting. I just haven't got to that yet. Which is why this is still just TALK. Between Footnotes, References, Further Reading and External Links I count 119 entries. While there is some overlap, that's a formidable amount of reading. I doubt that most contributors are experts at that level (?)
I was actually hoping to elicit some comments on my suggestions, hopefully including some references, from those with a better knowledge of the relevant literature. Alternatively perhaps somebody will point out why any or all of these don't belong here. Jwilsonjwilson (talk) 08:19, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
You might consider starting at the Rhetoric of science‎ article instead.—Machine Elf 1735 15:58, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
Thank you Machine Elf 1735! That is an awesome article. Obviously I'm going to have to read Thomas Kuhn, at least. My enormous ignorance is showing once again, I fear. Are you further suggesting that I move my TALK ideas over there? Jwilsonjwilson (talk) 19:28, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
Because this is a high profile article, it would be easier to have a good first experience editing there. You can link to this discussion (like so), but you would want to familiarize yourself with that article and start making (smaller) suggestions (a little at time) in regard to its content.—Machine Elf 1735 20:00, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
Thanks again. By 'this' I assume you refer to this Pseudoscience article. 'that article' would be Rhetoric of Science. Not sure if my proposal has relevance there (?) or why I might wish to edit the article at all. I consider this to be a 'smaller' proposal here as it seems to just add a bit to the sense of 4.6 & 4.7 which nobody seems to be disputing. From what you say, you seem to think the proposal would be controversial. Why? Jwilsonjwilson (talk) 20:14, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

After due consideration, I see what Machine Elf 1735 is talking about. Whatever the merits of my proposal may be, I have no expertise in this subject nor a sufficient mastery of the relevant literature. I agree that one or both of these qualities should appertain to any Wikipedia editor. Thank you Rolf and thank you Machine Elf 1735. Maybe you'll hear from me again. Jwilsonjwilson (talk) 04:47, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Proposal[edit]

Here is more details about the proposal.

The issue here is not a matter of WP:V or WP:RS because Matute is a good source and the text is verifiable. WP:NPOV requires that the existing mainstream view is fairly represented. I checked the article history. This IP edit deleted relevant text from the article. This edit also deleted text that is related to demographics and to the article. This proposal lost interest. QuackGuru (talk) 00:56, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

Sources[edit]

  • Barberia I, Blanco F, Cubillas CP, Matute H (2013). "Implementation and assessment of an intervention to debias adolescents against causal illusions". PLoS One 8 (8): e71303. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0071303. PMID 23967189.  See: "Researchers have warned that causal illusions are at the root of many superstitious beliefs and fuel many people's faith in pseudoscience, thus generating significant suffering in modern society."[2]
  • Blanco F, Barberia I, Matute H (2014). "The lack of side effects of an ineffective treatment facilitates the development of a belief in its effectiveness". PLoS One 9 (1): e84084. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0084084. PMID 24416194.  See: "This behavior may be parallel to actual pseudomedicine usage; that because a treatment is thought to be harmless, it is used with high frequency, hence the overestimation of its effectiveness in treating diseases with a high rate of spontaneous relief."[3]

I think these sources are relevant to this article. QuackGuru (talk) 01:37, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

last two sentences under "etymology" need clarifying[edit]

first:

"During the 20th century, the word was used rhetorically to ascribe to an action falsely maintaining scientific status." probably what is meant here is "used as a pejorative to describe explanations of phenomena which were claimed to be scientific, but which were not in fact supported by reliable experimental evidence." or something like that. "rhetorically" is certainly inaccurate, and "ascribe to an action" is difficult to parse.

second:

"From time to time, though, the usage of the word occurred in a more formal, technical manner around a perceived threat to individual and institutional security in a social and cultural setting.[26]" this is intended to summarize the linked article, which is hidden behind a paywall. my understanding from reading the abstract is that what still and dryden are saying is that the word "pseudoscience" was adopted as a marker to exclude outsiders and protect insiders, but that the strength of this marker has faded as "the growth of social constructionism denied science any special access to truth." in any event, one would not learn from the abstract that still and dryden viewed these usages as "formal" or "technical." if i had access to the article i would propose a replacement text. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zach bender (talkcontribs) 00:57, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

Is economics a pseudoscience?[edit]

Seems to meet all the conditions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Y2k1 (talkcontribs) 19:39, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Economics is a social science not a hard science, so it fails to meet the condition of saying it is science. XFEM Skier (talk) 21:18, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
Social sciences use the scientific method and base their conclusions on observation, measurement, testing and revision. While they are not "hard" science, they are science. TechBear | Talk | Contributions 21:40, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
How so? Please be specific. TechBear | Talk | Contributions 21:40, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
Y2k1, why do you believe that? If you have a good reason to believe that economics lacks testable hypotheses, peer review, model-building, or empiricism, I would be very keen to see that reason. bobrayner (talk) 00:21, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

See also link to Wikipedia:Fringe theories?[edit]

I think it would be helpful to include a See Also link to Wikipedia:Fringe theories perhaps even better to Wikipedia:Fringe_theories#Pseudoscience_and_other_fringe_theories. As per the editor's note in the article, I am asking here before adding it. Jytdog (talk) 19:25, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Absolutely not. Wikipedia:Fringe theories is a Wikipedia guideline. More appropriate would be Fringe theory, or Fringe science; however, I think neither are necessary. -- Scjessey (talk) 11:05, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
thanks for responding, but can you please provide reasoning for that? i thought it would be helpful so readers and editors could not only read about what Pseudoscience is, but easily see how we treat it on Wikipedia. I am not aware of any guideline or policy that discusses linking to a policy or guideline in Wikipedia. Are you? I've been editing quite a while and have never done it before nor seen it... Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 11:08, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
WP:SELF.—Machine Elf 1735 14:56, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
I see... thanks!! Jytdog (talk) 15:47, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Definition of pseudoscience[edit]

I took the definition of pseudoscience out of the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy (which is used as a source) [4]. This was reverted by another editor on the grounds of their beliefs, Second Quantization (talk) 21:21, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

definition from stanford encylopedia is good as is the expression you made, 2ndQ. Jytdog (talk) 21:31, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
The lead definition is most definitely not supported by your reference. It clearly states that you definition is not correct even if many authors conclude it is. The original I reverted to also was a direct quote from the source. On the actual definition the sources says "A comparison of the negated terms related to science can contribute to clarify the conceptual distinctions. “Unscientific” is a narrower concept than “non-scientific” (not scientific), since the former but not the latter term implies some form of contradiction or conflict with science. “Pseudoscientific” is in its turn a narrower concept than “unscientific”." So the lead you have changed it to is directly contradicted by this. You have made pseudoscience a single test in the sentence even when the source gives a number of 2 step tests. On the note from the source maybe including both the original and what you changed it to would be best. But in the end religion is not pseudoscience because it does not claim to be science, but it is non-scientific.
Note I have reverted it again because of this ongoing conversation until there is consensus here. XFEM Skier (talk) 22:32, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
Are you actually serious, did you even read the article? Did you read the specific part of the source I cited which in fact supports my edit rather than reading an irrelevant section which you are quoting (that has no impact at all on my edit)? First it introduces the condition "2′) it is part of a non-scientific doctrine whose major proponents try to create the impression that it is scientific". Then it specifically says "Sometimes the term “pseudoscience” is used in a wider sense than that which is captured in the definition constituted of (1) and (2′). Contrary to (2′), doctrines that conflict with science are sometimes called “pseudoscientific” in spite of not being advanced as scientific" in "a wider sense of pseudoscience". Then it introduces a replacement "(2″)it is part of a doctrine whose major proponents try to create the impression that it represents the most reliable knowledge on its subject matter.", followed by saying "Common usage seems to vacillate between the definitions (1)+(2′) and (1)+(2″); and this in an interesting way: In their comments on the meaning of the term, critics of pseudoscience tend to endorse a definition close to (1)+(2′), but their actual usage is often closer to (1)+(2″)." See that. It actually states the usage most used is the one I put in. Second Quantization (talk)
2ndQ I know you are frustrated but please be calm. With BRD, we need to talk this through. XFEM Skier it is not clear to me nor to 2ndQ precisely how you get to "But in the end religion is not pseudoscience because it does not claim to be science, but it is non-scientific" from the Stanford definition. That is such a glaring thing that it is hard to even see the rest of what you are writing. Would you please explain how you find the following reads on religion at all?: "Pseudoscience is a claim, belief or practice that conflicts with science or which is presented as scientific but which does not adhere to a valid scientific method, lacks supporting evidence or plausibility, cannot be reliably tested, or otherwise lacks scientific status." Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 23:15, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
I don't really care about the note. It is just hard to read especially in markup (reading the orginal source makes it clearer). My issue is with this the first sentence. "Pseudoscience is a claim, belief or practice that conflicts with science or which is presented as scientific but which does not adhere to a valid scientific method, lacks supporting evidence or plausibility, cannot be reliably tested, or otherwise lacks scientific status." The or greatly expands the definition to be outside the scope that is laid out in sources. It means that anything that is non-scientific is pseudoscience, which I don't see in sources. The examples laid out by the source in question include this "An otherwise reliable chemistry book gives an incorrect account of the structure of DNA." and states that it fails to meet either 2' and 2". But the sentence I have quoted from 2Q opening would have it be pseudoscience. That is my main issue. The or makes it exceedingly broad. Maybe a rework is needed to clarify that things that claim to have an better explanation the science but are not scientific are pseudoscience, but the edits that I reverted don't say that. XFEM Skier (talk) 23:50, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
I don't know what "note" you are talking about. The second part that you are concerned about says "which is presented as scientific but ..." This is a) not huge (there are few things that present themselves as science and are not) and b) most importantly is direct from Stanford source. Do you see that? Jytdog (talk) 01:56, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
Ah, it appears you may have read the sentence in a way other than intended. Here I've added in a comma: "Pseudoscience is a claim, belief or practice that conflicts with science or which is presented as scientific, but which does not adhere to a valid scientific method, lacks supporting evidence or plausibility, cannot be reliably tested, or otherwise lacks scientific status" . Breaking it into two separate statements it would read: "Pseudoscience is a claim, belief or practice that conflicts with science but which does not adhere to a valid scientific method, lacks supporting evidence or plausibility, cannot be reliably tested, or otherwise lacks scientific status", or "Pseudoscience is a claim, belief or practice presented as scientific, but which does not adhere to a valid scientific method, lacks supporting evidence or plausibility, cannot be reliably tested, or otherwise lacks scientific status". Second Quantization (talk) 06:50, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
I think your getting my point. I propose a more simply sentence to remove confusion for most readers. ""Pseudoscience is a claim, belief or practice that conflicts with science that purports to be science or is professed in place of the established science. Pseudoscience does not adhere to a valid scientific method, lacks supporting evidence or plausibility, cannot be reliably tested, or otherwise lacks scientific status." This would include changes that 2Q made to the reference (not currently active). Feel free to tweak or make other suggestions. XFEM Skier (talk) 07:09, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
Looks good to me. I've boldly inserted it. Second Quantization (talk) 07:42, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
I do not see how any of the options presented are an improvement over the existing. In particular, this is editorially unfavorable because it uses the noun "science" three times in one sentence to describe the word "pseudoscience". Can you please (re)explain the problem with the lede here? VQuakr (talk) 08:06, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
It doesn't agree with the sources as already has been discussed at length. The older wording is explicitly narrower than what the stanford encyclopedia says is commonly used. Read the discussion. Second Quantization (talk) 08:18, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
Your reply does not address my post above, and "read the discussion" is blatantly unhelpful. Per WP:BEGIN, the first sentence should concisely tell the nonspecialist reader what the subject is. The older version is better at that, because it is less verbose and less repetitive. We have an entire article to flesh out the nuances of usage between explicit and implicit presentation of a pseudoscientific concept as "science". VQuakr (talk) 08:34, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
"We have an entire article to flesh out the nuances of usage" This isn't nuance. The lead you reverted to has an explicitly more limited definition than the Stanford article uses (and what the stanford encyclopedia says is the common usage). The stanford source first introduces the condition "2′) it is part of a non-scientific doctrine whose major proponents try to create the impression that it is scientific". Then it specifically says "Sometimes the term “pseudoscience” is used in a wider sense than that which is captured in the definition constituted of (1) and (2′). Contrary to (2′), doctrines that conflict with science are sometimes called “pseudoscientific” in spite of not being advanced as scientific" in "a wider sense of pseudoscience". Then it introduces a replacement "(2″)it is part of a doctrine whose major proponents try to create the impression that it represents the most reliable knowledge on its subject matter.", followed by saying "Common usage seems to vacillate between the definitions (1)+(2′) and (1)+(2″); and this in an interesting way: In their comments on the meaning of the term, critics of pseudoscience tend to endorse a definition close to (1)+(2′), but their actual usage is often closer to (1)+(2″)."
If you wanted to flesh out nuance, then you should use the more generic descriptor, rather than the specific. If you wanted simplicity and that adheres to the source: " Pseudoscience is a claim, belief or practice in the scientific domain that does not adhere to a scientific method, lacks supporting evidence or plausibility, cannot be reliably tested, or otherwise lacks scientific status.". That encompasses both definitions. Second Quantization (talk) 08:47, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

reading[edit]

my resurch is for shool I am in the 7th graid and I have to find the book chalk can you halp mr please — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.26.49.234 (talk) 00:29, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Ayurveda[edit]

Ayurveda is not pseudoscience. It is proven to be effective, it is practiced all over India and has been extensively successful. Please do not quote wrong information. I have seen, read and experienced Ayurvedic medicine and I can affirm this with necessary references to whom so ever who needs it. Please do not revert changes. You are not the only one who is concerned about the sanctity of Wikipedia.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Deadly437 (talkcontribs) 15:43, 27 October 2014 (UTC

ayurveda is prescientific Traditional medicine - diagnosis and treatment are based on prescientific notions of the body. to the extent that people limited their claims about ayurveda to discussing traditional medicine we wouldn't need to talk about pseudoscience. But to the extent that people - like you do in your message above! - claim it is "successful" you are making scientific claims that are without basis of evidence in science. hence, "pseudoscience." Jytdog (talk) 15:59, 27 October 2014 (UTC)
Certainly pseudoscience when claims such as made here are made. Our article isn't categorised as such, though there is debate. I think it should be. -Roxy the dog™ (resonate) 16:28, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

Carl Sagan´s dragon[edit]

Please have a look at the statement about Carl Sagan´s dragon. I think the current statement is wrong talking about the presence of the dragon. That is not in line with Popper´s claim of falsifiability. I did a correction that you can see in the history but it was immediately reversed back to the wrong statement. Instead of just changing back to my version, you can leave your opinions first. Regards.Eda001 (talk) 15:54, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

Did you check the reference? -Roxy the dog™ (resonate) 16:08, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
Haven't been able to check the reference (not available online -- might have to go to an actual library!), but the text as originally added did talk about the inability to prove the existence of the dragon, although this does seem to run counter to the argument being made (that the inability to prove the absence of the dragon is not valid proof of its existence). WikiDan61ChatMe!ReadMe!! 16:29, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
Reference: https://7chan.org/lit/src/Carl_Sagan_-_The_Demon-Haunted_World.pdf. But that is not the important thing. His statement "your inability to invalidate…" says it all. Actually just before it he says: "If there's no way to disprove my contention, no conceivable experi- ment that would count against it, what does it mean to say that my dragon exists?" The reason you try to put paint, measuring IR heat, foot-prints etc is not to try to prove the existence, but that you believe that a negative finding is in line with proof of non-existence, since any other interpretation is disobeying natural laws as we know them.Eda001 (talk) 16:40, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
Beg to differ. It is the important thing. What does it say? Please answer my question. Thanks -Roxy the dog™ (resonate) 16:55, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
Remember this is in the chapter of Falsifiability. Scientific reasoning: You state that you have a dragon. As a scientist I am obliged to find out experiments that falsify that statement. By doing so I can prove you are wrong. The opposite is impossible. Trying to find more and more experiments that proves the existence of an invisible dragon, you can carry on indefinitely. Now, every time I find a result supporting the view that the dragon doesn't exist, you evade by saying that natural laws as we know them don't apply to this dragon. This leaves your initial statement meaningless since there is no way that I can falsify it. As Sagan says: "Now, what's the difference between an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire and no dragon at all?" Either you believe it or not, just based on your statement, true pseudoscience. Read the entire chapter (pp 160-), it is very enlightening.Eda001 (talk) 17:22, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
OK, I guess I made my point. I'm now changing the part to the correct version i put in earlier. If you are still in doubt, please read the chapter "Identifying pseudoscience" in the article, the part where Popper discuss Einstein´s general theory of relativity and you understand what I mean.Eda001 (talk) 04:52, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
You jumped the gun here, you should not really have done that per WP:BRD. Because you are new, I'm not going to revert you, but I may do so if I eventually figure out what Sagan was saying. -Roxy the dog™ (resonate) 06:13, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
Actually by reading WP:BRD, it seems to me that I'm following it better than you. If you think that the number of edits a user has done is a true quality indicator, then I can't understand why you are protecting articles in the area of science. I found something wrong and corrected it. You reverted to the old version without any explanation and when I provide you with the reference you don't even bother to read it, just stating that since I'm a new editor I shouldn't edit. If you don't understand falsifiability, don't try to tidy up the article. The section with Sagan´s dragon is redundant and can be removed. It would be much better to move Popper´s example with Einstein's general relativity from later on in the article, since this is the original statement given to examplify falsifiability. Best Regards.Eda001 (talk) 13:37, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
So, I changed it to be more universally correct. Since I'm not native in English, feel free to correct errors as long as the intentions are left unchanged.Eda001 (talk) 18:16, 12 November 2014 (UTC)