Talk:Qing dynasty

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Lord Charle's Beresford's description of Chinese forts and their gunners in the late Qing[edit]

http://books.google.com/books?id=FWgKAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA290#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=hLs0AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA290#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=VSZRAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA1022#v=onepage&q&f=false

Qing topics nominated for good articles[edit]

I have nominated Shamanism in the Qing dynasty and Deliberative Council of Princes and Ministers for good article status. Interested editors are welcome to start a review by following these instructions. Thank you! Madalibi (talk) 09:41, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

(And while I'm at it...) I've also submitted the recently expanded List of emperors of the Qing Dynasty for peer review in preparation for an eventual featured list candidacy. The peer review page is here. Thank you again! Madalibi (talk) 10:25, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Successive entities[edit]

As of January 26, 2014, the only successive entity listed on this article's infobox is the Republic of China (1912–1949). However, both the Kingdom of Tibet and the State of Mongolia became independent after the Xinhai Revolution. Should these countries also be listed as the successor states of the Qing Empire? After all, they did have authority over the former territory of the empire. B14709 (talk) 21:55, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

Yes, they probably should along with Taiwan, but the latter might prove to be a bit of a political hot potato depending on which side of the One-China policy fence one sits. ► Philg88 ◄ Star.pngtalk 22:09, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
I think it's cleaner, and more in line with treatments in the sources, to stick with the main successor in the infobox and give detail in the article text. In the past the infobox has listed as successors Republic of China (1912–1949), Mongolia (1911–21), Tibet (1912–51), Republic of Formosa, British Hong Kong, Portuguese Macau, Guangzhouwan, Kiautschou Bay concession, Empire of Japan and many more, turning the infobox into an unwieldy mess. I'd rather keep that can of worms closed. Kanguole 01:28, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Qing ideology regarding "China"[edit]

The Qing identified their state as "China" (Zhongguo), and referred to it as "Dulimbai Gurun" in Manchu. The Qing equated the lands of the Qing state (including present day Manchuria, Dzungaria in Xinjiang, Mongolia, and other areas as "China" in both the Chinese and Manchu languages, defining China as a multi ethnic state.

https://webspace.utexas.edu/hl4958/perspectives/Zhao%20-%20reinventing%20china.pdf

When the Qing conquered Dzungaria in the Ten_Great_Campaigns#The_Zunghars_and_pacification_of_Xinjiang_.281755.E2.80.931759.29, they proclaimed that their land was absorbed into "China".

http://books.google.com/books?id=6qFH-53_VnEC&pg=PA77&dq=Dulimbai+gurun+land&hl=en&sa=X&ei=jEHtUunnIIvksASBzIEQ&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Dulimbai%20gurun%20land&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=6qFH-53_VnEC&pg=PA83&dq=Dulimbai+gurun&hl=en&sa=X&ei=iT7tUsrhM4bhyQH_04HYBg&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Dulimbai%20gurun&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=_qtgoTIAiKUC&pg=PA503&dq=steppes+mountains+rivers+Dzungar+unified+with+china&hl=en&sa=X&ei=5UHtUuvvCcu_sQStu4HYBw&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=steppes%20mountains%20rivers%20Dzungar%20unified%20with%20china&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=_qtgoTIAiKUC&pg=PA503&dq=Dulimbai+gurun&hl=en&sa=X&ei=_0LtUoGlNMTCywHW0ICAAg&ved=0CEQQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=Dulimbai%20gurun&f=false

In many other Manchu records they refer to their state as China and as Manchus as inhabitants of China, and when they refer to the Qing in conparison with other lands, they use "China"

http://books.google.com/books?id=qlJpAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA205&dq=Dulimbai+gurun&hl=en&sa=X&ei=iT7tUsrhM4bhyQH_04HYBg&ved=0CDsQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=Dulimbai%20gurun&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=t2JTJW0X6LkC&pg=PA205&dq=Dulimbai+gurun&hl=en&sa=X&ei=iT7tUsrhM4bhyQH_04HYBg&ved=0CEAQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=Dulimbai%20gurun&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=J4L-_cjmSqoC&pg=PA218&dq=Dulimbai+gurun&hl=en&sa=X&ei=90LtUpuHEaSMyAHAl4DoDA&ved=0CEQQ6AEwBTgK#v=onepage&q=Dulimbai%20gurun&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=zqVug_wN4hEC&pg=PA102&dq=Dulimbai+gurun&hl=en&sa=X&ei=m0PtUtv-OIOTyQHX8YCwAQ&ved=0CDAQ6AEwATgU#v=onepage&q=Dulimbai%20gurun&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=Dw9gYo4Pk0MC&pg=PA211&dq=Dulimbai+gurun&hl=en&sa=X&ei=iT7tUsrhM4bhyQH_04HYBg&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Dulimbai%20gurun&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=LbmP_1KIQ_8C&pg=PA304&dq=Dulimbai+gurun&hl=en&sa=X&ei=iT7tUsrhM4bhyQH_04HYBg&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Dulimbai%20gurun&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=TmhtAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA80&dq=Dulimbai+gurun&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-0PtUoKZEKWgyAH8oIHgBQ&ved=0CF0Q6AEwCTge#v=onepage&q=Dulimbai%20gurun&f=false

Nurhaci described Manchu way of life[edit]

Nurhaci described the Manchu way of life as farming land and eating grain, as opposed to Mongols livestock nomadic pastoralism and eating meat.

http://books.google.com/books?id=hi2THl2FUZ4C&pg=PA31&dq=Nurhaci+mongol+meat+grain&hl=en&sa=X&ei=4XXsUujGIeO1sASQ0IDwBg&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Nurhaci%20mongol%20meat%20grain&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=_qtgoTIAiKUC&pg=PA68&dq=Nurhaci+mongol+meat+grain&hl=en&sa=X&ei=4XXsUujGIeO1sASQ0IDwBg&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Nurhaci%20mongol%20meat%20grain&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=J4L-_cjmSqoC&pg=PA127&dq=Mongols+Manchus+Nurhaci+stressed+differences&hl=en&sa=X&ei=XnbsUoCeHLSqsASiy4DABQ&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Mongols%20Manchus%20Nurhaci%20stressed%20differences&f=false

Rajmaan (talk) 19:00, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

Predecessor and successor in infobox[edit]

What predecessors and successors should we show in the infobox? These fields have a tendency to turn into an unwieldy mess. Personally I think it would be in line with with academic practice to limit it to Ming as predecessor and Republic as successor. Kanguole 12:25, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

Seems sensible, too much flagcruft otherwise. ► Philg88 ◄ Star.pngtalk 12:41, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

The start date should be 1616, when the Manchus have freed themselves from Ming rule, or 1635 when the Later Jin have been renamed to Qing. Regards. Fabiorss1983 (talk) 14:07, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress[edit]

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Han Dynasty which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 13:29, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

article is in need of serious revision due to over unhistorical Han bias[edit]

This article seems to propound the Han Chinese Nationalist view (party line?), that the Qing Dynasty was a "corrupt", "foreign", "stagnant", as well as politically and economically illegitimate empire, that prompted the technological and cultural decline of Han China before the entrance of the European Powers. It is in urgent need of rewrite and review as it does not adhere to Western scholarly standards of objectivity and impartiality.

There are many historical inaccuracies in this. Firstly, the Jurchens (or Manchus) have historically lived in China for thousands of years, and were not a nomadic invading culture from the Steppes. Secondly, Jurchens are ethnically, culturally and racially related to the Chinese. Therefore they are just as much apart of the fabric and make up of China, since they have fallen (past and present) within its boarders.

China isn't a homogenous society: it is an ethnically and culturally diverse country, with every culture being as legitimate and "Chinese" as the next. Throughout its history, it has been awash with warfare, rebellions, new dynasties and empires. The Qing dynasty is just one example of many, that is no less legitimate than any other, since all Chinese dynasties have been built by war, conquest and oppression.

There is an erroneous view that the Manchus were a culturally regressive culture, that tragically halted the Han Chinese Pipe Dream of being the worlds most technologically advanced culture. This is an illusion, since England was the most technologically advanced culture by the 17th Century (before the Qing dynast!), and was well ahead in Science and technology. Another point worth mentioning is that the practice of foot binding was not originated by the Manchus but the Han Chinese. The Manchus are on the record for opposing it! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Manchurien candidate (talkcontribs) 04:52, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

IPA[edit]

Is the IPA wrong? This is the IPA shown: [tɕʰíŋ tʂʰɑ̌ʊ̯] I can't actually find this character "í" here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_Mandarin. Perhaps it's supposed to be "i"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nearwater (talkcontribs) 02:12, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

It's a tone mark, equivalent to ī (first tone) in pinyin. See the lower right of that page. It doesn't list every vowel-tone combination. – Greg Pandatshang (talk) 23:24, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Kangxi's extermination of the Manchu Hoifan (Hoifa) and Ula tribes after they rebelled against the Qing[edit]

Page 36

http://books.google.com/books?id=KHwPAAAAYAAJ&q=N.N.+Krotkov+mentions+in+his+memoirs+that+in+the+thirty+fifth+year+of+the+Emperor+Kangxi's+reign+(1697)+the+Manchu+tribe+Hoifan+(Hoifa)+rebelled+against+the+Qing+authorities+and+was+exterminated+by+the+regular+forces,+and+in+the+forty-first+year+of+the+Emperor+Kangxi's+rule+(1703)+the+Manchu+tribe+Ula+ceased+to+exist+(Krotkov+,+191+1-1912:1+17-37).+The+rebellions+of+the+tribes+Hoifan+and+Ula+took+place+at+the+time+when+the+Sibe's+resettlement+had+been+proceeding,+and+the+coincidence&dq=N.N.+Krotkov+mentions+in+his+memoirs+that+in+the+thirty+fifth+year+of+the+Emperor+Kangxi's+reign+(1697)+the+Manchu+tribe+Hoifan+(Hoifa)+rebelled+against+the+Qing+authorities+and+was+exterminated+by+the+regular+forces,+and+in+the+forty-first+year+of+the+Emperor+Kangxi's+rule+(1703)+the+Manchu+tribe+Ula+ceased+to+exist+(Krotkov+,+191+1-1912:1+17-37).+The+rebellions+of+the+tribes+Hoifan+and+Ula+took+place+at+the+time+when+the+Sibe's+resettlement+had+been+proceeding,+and+the+coincidence&hl=en&sa=X&ei=dlpoU_3EG-7isATt24EY&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAA

http://books.google.com/books?ei=dlpoU_3EG-7isATt24EY&id=KHwPAAAAYAAJ&dq=N.N.+Krotkov+mentions+in+his+memoirs+that+in+the+thirty+fifth+year+of+the+Emperor+Kangxi%27s+reign+%281697%29+the+Manchu+tribe+Hoifan+%28Hoifa%29+rebelled+against+the+Qing+authorities+and+was+exterminated+by+the+regular+forces%2C+and+in+the+forty-first+year+of+the+Emperor+Kangxi%27s+rule+%281703%29+the+Manchu+tribe+Ula+ceased+to+exist+%28Krotkov+%2C+191+1-1912%3A1+17-37%29.+The+rebellions+of+the+tribes+Hoifan+and+Ula+took+place+at+the+time+when+the+Sibe%27s+resettlement+had+been+proceeding%2C+and+the+coincidence&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=ceased+exist+rebellions

Title Handbook of Oriental Studies. Section 8 Uralic & Central Asian Studies, Manchu Grammar Volume 7 of Handbook of Oriental Studies Volume 7 of Handbook of Oriental Studies. Section 8 Uralic and Central Asian Studies Volume 7 of Handbook of oriental studies : Sect. 8, Central Asia / Handbuch der Orientalistik / 8 Volume 7 of Handbuch der Orientalistik. Achte Abteilung, Handbook of Uralic studies Volume 7 of Handbuch der Orientalistik: Achte Abteilung, Central Asia Handbuch der Orientalistik: Zentralasien Editor Liliya M. Gorelova Publisher Brill Academic Pub, 2002 Original from the University of Virginia Digitized Oct 17, 2007 ISBN 9004123075, 9789004123076 Length 600 pages Subjects History › Europe › General

Rajmaan (talk) 03:53, 6 May 2014 (UTC)