Talk:Qing dynasty

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Lord Charle's Beresford's description of Chinese forts and their gunners in the late Qing[edit]

http://books.google.com/books?id=FWgKAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA290#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=hLs0AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA290#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=VSZRAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA1022#v=onepage&q&f=false

Qing topics nominated for good articles[edit]

I have nominated Shamanism in the Qing dynasty and Deliberative Council of Princes and Ministers for good article status. Interested editors are welcome to start a review by following these instructions. Thank you! Madalibi (talk) 09:41, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

(And while I'm at it...) I've also submitted the recently expanded List of emperors of the Qing Dynasty for peer review in preparation for an eventual featured list candidacy. The peer review page is here. Thank you again! Madalibi (talk) 10:25, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Successive entities[edit]

As of January 26, 2014, the only successive entity listed on this article's infobox is the Republic of China (1912–1949). However, both the Kingdom of Tibet and the State of Mongolia became independent after the Xinhai Revolution. Should these countries also be listed as the successor states of the Qing Empire? After all, they did have authority over the former territory of the empire. B14709 (talk) 21:55, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

Yes, they probably should along with Taiwan, but the latter might prove to be a bit of a political hot potato depending on which side of the One-China policy fence one sits. ► Philg88 ◄ Star.pngtalk 22:09, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
I think it's cleaner, and more in line with treatments in the sources, to stick with the main successor in the infobox and give detail in the article text. In the past the infobox has listed as successors Republic of China (1912–1949), Mongolia (1911–21), Tibet (1912–51), Republic of Formosa, British Hong Kong, Portuguese Macau, Guangzhouwan, Kiautschou Bay concession, Empire of Japan and many more, turning the infobox into an unwieldy mess. I'd rather keep that can of worms closed. Kanguole 01:28, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Qing ideology regarding "China"[edit]

The Qing identified their state as "China" (Zhongguo), and referred to it as "Dulimbai Gurun" in Manchu. The Qing equated the lands of the Qing state (including present day Manchuria, Dzungaria in Xinjiang, Mongolia, and other areas as "China" in both the Chinese and Manchu languages, defining China as a multi ethnic state.

https://webspace.utexas.edu/hl4958/perspectives/Zhao%20-%20reinventing%20china.pdf

When the Qing conquered Dzungaria in the Ten_Great_Campaigns#The_Zunghars_and_pacification_of_Xinjiang_.281755.E2.80.931759.29, they proclaimed that their land was absorbed into "China".

http://books.google.com/books?id=6qFH-53_VnEC&pg=PA77&dq=Dulimbai+gurun+land&hl=en&sa=X&ei=jEHtUunnIIvksASBzIEQ&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Dulimbai%20gurun%20land&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=6qFH-53_VnEC&pg=PA83&dq=Dulimbai+gurun&hl=en&sa=X&ei=iT7tUsrhM4bhyQH_04HYBg&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Dulimbai%20gurun&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=_qtgoTIAiKUC&pg=PA503&dq=steppes+mountains+rivers+Dzungar+unified+with+china&hl=en&sa=X&ei=5UHtUuvvCcu_sQStu4HYBw&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=steppes%20mountains%20rivers%20Dzungar%20unified%20with%20china&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=_qtgoTIAiKUC&pg=PA503&dq=Dulimbai+gurun&hl=en&sa=X&ei=_0LtUoGlNMTCywHW0ICAAg&ved=0CEQQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=Dulimbai%20gurun&f=false

In many other Manchu records they refer to their state as China and as Manchus as inhabitants of China, and when they refer to the Qing in conparison with other lands, they use "China"

http://books.google.com/books?id=qlJpAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA205&dq=Dulimbai+gurun&hl=en&sa=X&ei=iT7tUsrhM4bhyQH_04HYBg&ved=0CDsQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=Dulimbai%20gurun&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=t2JTJW0X6LkC&pg=PA205&dq=Dulimbai+gurun&hl=en&sa=X&ei=iT7tUsrhM4bhyQH_04HYBg&ved=0CEAQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=Dulimbai%20gurun&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=J4L-_cjmSqoC&pg=PA218&dq=Dulimbai+gurun&hl=en&sa=X&ei=90LtUpuHEaSMyAHAl4DoDA&ved=0CEQQ6AEwBTgK#v=onepage&q=Dulimbai%20gurun&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=zqVug_wN4hEC&pg=PA102&dq=Dulimbai+gurun&hl=en&sa=X&ei=m0PtUtv-OIOTyQHX8YCwAQ&ved=0CDAQ6AEwATgU#v=onepage&q=Dulimbai%20gurun&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=Dw9gYo4Pk0MC&pg=PA211&dq=Dulimbai+gurun&hl=en&sa=X&ei=iT7tUsrhM4bhyQH_04HYBg&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Dulimbai%20gurun&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=LbmP_1KIQ_8C&pg=PA304&dq=Dulimbai+gurun&hl=en&sa=X&ei=iT7tUsrhM4bhyQH_04HYBg&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Dulimbai%20gurun&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=TmhtAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA80&dq=Dulimbai+gurun&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-0PtUoKZEKWgyAH8oIHgBQ&ved=0CF0Q6AEwCTge#v=onepage&q=Dulimbai%20gurun&f=false

https://zh.wikisource.org/zh-hant/尼布楚條約_(漢文界碑)

http://zh.wikisource.org/w/index.php?title=尼布楚條約_%28漢文界碑%29&variant=zh-hant

[Nerchinsk Treaty] 「...將流入黑龍江之額爾古納河為界。河之南岸、屬於中國。河之北岸、屬於鄂羅斯。」 "Argun river will be set as the border (between the two countries). The land from the south of the river belongs to China; the land from the north of the river belongs to Russia."

「將流入黑龍江之額爾古納河為界,河之南岸屬於中國(Qing),河之北岸屬於鄂羅斯」

https://zh.wikisource.org/zh-hant/大義覺迷錄

https://zh.wikisource.org/zh/大義覺迷錄

https://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/大義覺迷錄

「...(逆賊)不知本朝之為滿洲,猶中國之有籍貫。」 "(traitors) are so foolish that they don't even understand that Manchu is a part of China." --Yongzheng, emperor of Qing Dynasty.

《大義覺迷錄》:在逆賊等之意,徒謂本朝以滿洲之君,入為中國之主,妄生此疆彼界之私,遂故為訕謗詆譏之說耳。不知本朝之為滿洲,猶中國之有籍貫。舜為東夷之人,文王為西夷之人,曾何損於聖德乎?

Nurhaci described Manchu way of life[edit]

Nurhaci described the Manchu way of life as farming land and eating grain, as opposed to Mongols livestock nomadic pastoralism and eating meat.

http://books.google.com/books?id=hi2THl2FUZ4C&pg=PA31&dq=Nurhaci+mongol+meat+grain&hl=en&sa=X&ei=4XXsUujGIeO1sASQ0IDwBg&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Nurhaci%20mongol%20meat%20grain&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=_qtgoTIAiKUC&pg=PA68&dq=Nurhaci+mongol+meat+grain&hl=en&sa=X&ei=4XXsUujGIeO1sASQ0IDwBg&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Nurhaci%20mongol%20meat%20grain&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=J4L-_cjmSqoC&pg=PA127&dq=Mongols+Manchus+Nurhaci+stressed+differences&hl=en&sa=X&ei=XnbsUoCeHLSqsASiy4DABQ&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Mongols%20Manchus%20Nurhaci%20stressed%20differences&f=false

Rajmaan (talk) 19:00, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

Predecessor and successor in infobox[edit]

What predecessors and successors should we show in the infobox? These fields have a tendency to turn into an unwieldy mess. Personally I think it would be in line with with academic practice to limit it to Ming as predecessor and Republic as successor. Kanguole 12:25, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

Seems sensible, too much flagcruft otherwise. ► Philg88 ◄ Star.pngtalk 12:41, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

The start date should be 1616, when the Manchus have freed themselves from Ming rule, or 1635 when the Later Jin have been renamed to Qing. Regards. Fabiorss1983 (talk) 14:07, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress[edit]

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Han Dynasty which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 13:29, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

article is in need of serious revision due to over unhistorical Han bias[edit]

This article seems to propound the Han Chinese Nationalist view (party line?), that the Qing Dynasty was a "corrupt", "foreign", "stagnant", as well as politically and economically illegitimate empire, that prompted the technological and cultural decline of Han China before the entrance of the European Powers. It is in urgent need of rewrite and review as it does not adhere to Western scholarly standards of objectivity and impartiality.

There are many historical inaccuracies in this. Firstly, the Jurchens (or Manchus) have historically lived in China for thousands of years, and were not a nomadic invading culture from the Steppes. Secondly, Jurchens are ethnically, culturally and racially related to the Chinese. Therefore they are just as much apart of the fabric and make up of China, since they have fallen (past and present) within its boarders.

China isn't a homogenous society: it is an ethnically and culturally diverse country, with every culture being as legitimate and "Chinese" as the next. Throughout its history, it has been awash with warfare, rebellions, new dynasties and empires. The Qing dynasty is just one example of many, that is no less legitimate than any other, since all Chinese dynasties have been built by war, conquest and oppression.

There is an erroneous view that the Manchus were a culturally regressive culture, that tragically halted the Han Chinese Pipe Dream of being the worlds most technologically advanced culture. This is an illusion, since England was the most technologically advanced culture by the 17th Century (before the Qing dynast!), and was well ahead in Science and technology. Another point worth mentioning is that the practice of foot binding was not originated by the Manchus but the Han Chinese. The Manchus are on the record for opposing it! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Manchurien candidate (talkcontribs) 04:52, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

IPA[edit]

Is the IPA wrong? This is the IPA shown: [tɕʰíŋ tʂʰɑ̌ʊ̯] I can't actually find this character "í" here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_Mandarin. Perhaps it's supposed to be "i"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nearwater (talkcontribs) 02:12, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

It's a tone mark, equivalent to ī (first tone) in pinyin. See the lower right of that page. It doesn't list every vowel-tone combination. – Greg Pandatshang (talk) 23:24, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Kangxi's extermination of the Manchu Hoifan (Hoifa) and Ula tribes after they rebelled against the Qing[edit]

Page 36

http://books.google.com/books?id=KHwPAAAAYAAJ&q=N.N.+Krotkov+mentions+in+his+memoirs+that+in+the+thirty+fifth+year+of+the+Emperor+Kangxi's+reign+(1697)+the+Manchu+tribe+Hoifan+(Hoifa)+rebelled+against+the+Qing+authorities+and+was+exterminated+by+the+regular+forces,+and+in+the+forty-first+year+of+the+Emperor+Kangxi's+rule+(1703)+the+Manchu+tribe+Ula+ceased+to+exist+(Krotkov+,+191+1-1912:1+17-37).+The+rebellions+of+the+tribes+Hoifan+and+Ula+took+place+at+the+time+when+the+Sibe's+resettlement+had+been+proceeding,+and+the+coincidence&dq=N.N.+Krotkov+mentions+in+his+memoirs+that+in+the+thirty+fifth+year+of+the+Emperor+Kangxi's+reign+(1697)+the+Manchu+tribe+Hoifan+(Hoifa)+rebelled+against+the+Qing+authorities+and+was+exterminated+by+the+regular+forces,+and+in+the+forty-first+year+of+the+Emperor+Kangxi's+rule+(1703)+the+Manchu+tribe+Ula+ceased+to+exist+(Krotkov+,+191+1-1912:1+17-37).+The+rebellions+of+the+tribes+Hoifan+and+Ula+took+place+at+the+time+when+the+Sibe's+resettlement+had+been+proceeding,+and+the+coincidence&hl=en&sa=X&ei=dlpoU_3EG-7isATt24EY&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAA

http://books.google.com/books?ei=dlpoU_3EG-7isATt24EY&id=KHwPAAAAYAAJ&dq=N.N.+Krotkov+mentions+in+his+memoirs+that+in+the+thirty+fifth+year+of+the+Emperor+Kangxi%27s+reign+%281697%29+the+Manchu+tribe+Hoifan+%28Hoifa%29+rebelled+against+the+Qing+authorities+and+was+exterminated+by+the+regular+forces%2C+and+in+the+forty-first+year+of+the+Emperor+Kangxi%27s+rule+%281703%29+the+Manchu+tribe+Ula+ceased+to+exist+%28Krotkov+%2C+191+1-1912%3A1+17-37%29.+The+rebellions+of+the+tribes+Hoifan+and+Ula+took+place+at+the+time+when+the+Sibe%27s+resettlement+had+been+proceeding%2C+and+the+coincidence&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=ceased+exist+rebellions

Title Handbook of Oriental Studies. Section 8 Uralic & Central Asian Studies, Manchu Grammar Volume 7 of Handbook of Oriental Studies Volume 7 of Handbook of Oriental Studies. Section 8 Uralic and Central Asian Studies Volume 7 of Handbook of oriental studies : Sect. 8, Central Asia / Handbuch der Orientalistik / 8 Volume 7 of Handbuch der Orientalistik. Achte Abteilung, Handbook of Uralic studies Volume 7 of Handbuch der Orientalistik: Achte Abteilung, Central Asia Handbuch der Orientalistik: Zentralasien Editor Liliya M. Gorelova Publisher Brill Academic Pub, 2002 Original from the University of Virginia Digitized Oct 17, 2007 ISBN 9004123075, 9789004123076 Length 600 pages Subjects History › Europe › General

Rajmaan (talk) 03:53, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

Dynasty ?[edit]

Reigns of Qing emperors
1616–1626 Nurhaci
1626–1643 Hong Taiji
Dorgon (1643-1650)
1644–1661 Shunzhi
1662–1722 Kangxi
1723–1735 Yongzheng
1736–1796 Qianlong
1796–1820 Jiaqing
1821–1850 Daoguang
1851–1861 Xianfeng
1862–1875 Tongzhi
1875–1908 Guangxu
1909–1912 Xuantong

It would be great to have a numbered list of the successive emperors of this dynasty, with birth, reign and death years, and the most common name of the person, using English spelling. As it stands, this article is so unclear ! Pldx1 (talk) 14:20, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Hi Pldx1! All this info (and much more) can be found on List of emperors of the Qing dynasty. Do you have a suggestion for making that page more visible here for people who have the same questions as you? Madalibi (talk) 14:24, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
Maybe a timeline like the one at right would be useful as a framework for the narrative. Kanguole 14:50, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
Hi Madalibi. Thanks for this quick response! May be a disambiguation line at the top of the page would be the best way, for people using 'dynasty' as a succession of people rather than as the name of an historical period. By the way, I have added a number in the list of the 12 emperors.
Moreover: was lunar year 1626 attributed to Nurhaci or to Hong Taji ? Pldx1 (talk) 15:14, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
The ones you've added (Nurhaci, Hong Taiji and Dorgon) didn't rule China. Kanguole 15:27, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for the useful sidebar, Kanguole! And the (discreet) numbers make a fine addition to List of emperors of the Qing dynasty, Pldx1. I've always wondered if we could add a {{see also}} template to the top of a page. If the two topics are very clearly related, I'd say why not, but of course we need some kind of consensus before proceeding...
As for the reign years of Qing emperors, they're a bit artificial. The Kangxi emperor (1662–1722) actually became emperor in early February 1661, a few days after the death of his father the Shunzhi emperor and a whole year before his new era name "Kangxi" came into effect on 18 February 1622, the first day of the Chinese lunisolar year following Shunzhi's death. The dates you see are those of era names, not actual reign years, and that's why they look perfectly clean cut: 1644–1661 is followed by 1662–1722, and then 1723–1735, with no overlap whatsoever. Now Nurhaci (r. 1616–1626) and Hong Taiji (r. 1626–1643) were not known by their era names, so their reign years naturally overlap in 1626, the year Nurhaci died and Hong Taiji succeeded him. Cheers, Madalibi (talk) 01:47, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

About the map[edit]

The map used in this article's infobox was not the map of Qing Dynasty in its greatest extent. Since other articles uses maps that shows the greatest extent of a country, why not for this article? Why not use map of Qing Dynasty in 18th century, instead of 19th century, where the Empire has ceded some territory to other countries?--Alvin Lee 13:25, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

I generally agree, the map should be of the Qianlong period in the 18th century, as that was the peak of the Qing power. The main difference would be north east border with Russia. We are, however, at the mercy of whoever makes the maps as it is rather a specialist task. Feel free to post another version here if you can create one. Rincewind42 (talk) 12:01, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
Anyone in contact with someone who's very skilled at making geographical vector maps in SVG format? This 1844 map would be a good non-contemporary source to base such a map on. --benlisquareTCE 12:18, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
Thank you for responding, I will try to find a suitable map for this article. May I ask whether the map used must be one similar to the one used in this article?--Alvin Lee 13:27, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
Will any of these be appropriate for this article?

--Alvin Lee 13:30, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

There is a similar problem over at Talk:Han_dynasty#Map. For some reason the wikipedian mapmaker decided to represent protectorate states as a bunch of random unconnected dots unlike the convention used by actual historians where the whole region is shaded in a solid color.Rajmaan (talk) 17:22, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
Yes, and this has to be corrected. But for this article, any ideas about maps for Qing?--Alvin Lee 06:53, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── As the SVG mapmaker who created Qing_Empire_circa_1820_EN.svg (fifth from left in the above gallery), AFAIK this is pretty much the empire at its greatest extent. I seem to recall that I tried to insert it in the infobox as the "main" map but it was reverted.  Philg88 talk 07:47, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

I'll replace the map with this one, thank you.--Alvin Lee 08:29, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
Sorry but the map is now geographically defective. Examine the northeastern corner. That is not what Outer Manchuria's coastline looks like.Rajmaan (talk) 16:06, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
If it is decided on a map of the Qing at its greatest extant, then someone might want to make a new map, because Qing Dynasty 1820.png is already used on this article to show the empire's administrative divisions, as it should be, since it specifically shows the provinces. It should be a map with not a lot of details, and easy to identify in the infobox.--TheLeopard (talk) 00:23, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
I have replaced with a simpler one.--Alvin Lee 01:34, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
This is similar to empires like Byzantine Empire, we will use the map in 555, not in 867, in order to show the strength of the empire.--Alvin Lee 01:53, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── I'm not convinced that a map showing little more than blobs of colour is useful to anyone.  Philg88 talk 06:01, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Would you kindly suggest a kind of map that will fulfill your requirements? Don't just say every map i used were inappropiate.--Alvin Lee 03:10, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

Navigation template Qing dynasty topics[edit]

Evecurid has done a great service by creating a powerful new navigation template, Template:Qing dynasty topics. This should be of tremendous help in coordinating and developing the articles in this area. Congratulations to Evecurid for letting us see all this so clearly. ch (talk) 17:25, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Other names for the Qing dynasty[edit]

I think there are a few alternative names for the Qing dynasty, such as Qing Empire, Empire of the Great Qing, Great Qing (state), Manchu dynasty, Manchu (Qing) empire etc. (There are even names such as Ta Tsing empire because of different romanizations; among which Great Qing or Ta Tsing were the official name for the Qing, although not necessarily a common name in English literature). Should they all be listed in the first paragraph, or should they be mentioned in the "Names" section of the article instead? Thanks for suggestions. --Evecurid (talk) 21:11, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

It's a headache! The present day international concept "official name" did not exist for much of the dynasty so many terms were used and there was no need for any one of them to be used exclusively, even though some uses had political purposes. In the early reigns, an emperor might sometimes use one term and sometimes another; a treaty (which you would think would be "official"), might use still another; and Han officials might use any of them or none. So it seems useful to readers to list the most common terms in the lead, but to save a lengthy explanation for the "Names" section.
The term "Ta Tsing," is, as you say, only a different romanization for 大 请, in pinyin Da Qing, not a different name, so there is no need to list it, certainly not in the lead, any more than there is a need to list Ta Ch'ing, which is Wade-Giles. Official documents also used 本朝 (benchao) or 我国 woguo to mean "the dynasty" or "our country" or maybe just "us" or "we." So the use of any one of these or other terms in a particular time or place doesn't mean that others were not also valid.
And this is all before we even get to the names in Manchu, Mongol, Tibetan, and Uighur, which were all "official" languages (or maybe better, "court languages").ch (talk) 04:58, 22 March 2015 (UTC)
There is a difference between names officially used by the Qing for themselves and names which foreigners called them which need to be noted as such. The Qing called themselves Daicing Gurun (Qing State, Warrior State), Da Qing Diguo (Great Qing Empire), Zhongguo (Middle Kingdom, China). "Manchu Empire" and "Manchu Dynasty" were foreign western language names used by some westerners in the 19th century and early 20th century. "Man Qing" 满清 was a derogatory name used by anti-Qing revolutionaries in their writings such as those involved in the Xinhai Revolution. The Qing never called itself "Man Qing".
The Ottoman Empire called itself "Osmanli Devleti" (Ottoman state). It did not call itself "Turkish Empire". That was used by foreign Europeans who called them "Imperium Turcicum" in Latin, and its noted as such at Names of the Ottoman Empire, exactly which language the name originated from. Any names on here need to have the exact origin- who used them (both the country of origin and the political ideology) and in what language.Rajmaan (talk) 08:29, 22 March 2015 (UTC)
Well informed and well put! ch (talk) 05:38, 23 March 2015 (UTC)