Talk:Rab Butler

Title

On reflection would Rab Butler be the more natural place for this article?

And do we want a category/list page for Politicians in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland who served in all three of the "top jobs" roles (Chancellor of the Exchequer, Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs and Secretary of State for the Home Department) by whatever snappy title we can come up with? Timrollpickering 22:20, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Category:Generally top-notch chaps, perhaps. Was he known as "Rab Butler", or just "Rab"? If the latter, perhaps R. A. Butler would be better. Proteus (Talk) 15:44, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

It's often pronounced "Rab" not "R. A. B." (as opposed to, say, A.J.P. Taylor whose initials are always pronounced individually), so I'd leave out the periods. He was often called just "Rab", probably because he was the only Rab about - similarly Winston and Enoch were often referred to without surnames as it was pretty clear who was meant, but "Rab Butler" is probably the best that combines his surname with his best known name and was often used to describe him. Timrollpickering 19:24, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

It just strikes me as odd, that's all (because of the repeated "B", I suppose, making me analyse it as "Richard Austen Butler Butler). But then I suppose we have Jeb Bush, so why not? Proteus (Talk) 00:25, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The analogy to Jeb Bush seems appropriate. BTW, how many men have held all three positions? Besides Butler, I can only think of James Callaghan and John Simon. Men who have held two of the three include Jack Straw, John Major, Kenneth Clarke, Geoffrey Howe, Douglas Hurd, Roy Jenkins, John Anderson, Samuel Hoare, Winston Churchill, Arthur Henderson, Herbert Morrison, Reginald Maudling, Selwyn Lloyd, Reginald McKenna, Austen Chamberlain, Charles Thomson Ritchie, Herbert Henry Asquith, William Harcourt, Hugh Childers, Robert Lowe, George Lewis, Lord Palmerston, Lord John Russell, Lord Liverpool, George Canning, Lord Goderich (Ripon), Robert Peel, Stafford Northcote... john k 01:05, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Off the top of my head I can only think of those three, though if you throw in the ther big posts of Lord Chancellor and Prime Minister as well then the list of politicians who've held a lot of top jobs gets interesting.

Of the one's who've held two posts, you might want to add Harold Macmillan but I can't think of any others off the top of my head.

If no-one's any objections I'll move the page to Rab Butler in 24 hours. Timrollpickering 18:41, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

For two, you also get Lord Grenville and the Duke of Wellington (although that's only because he was caretaker "Secretary of State" in Nov-Dec 1834, meaning that he was technically Home Secretary as well as Foreign Secretary. Adding Lord Chancellors wouldn't make a big difference - most Lord Chancellors went on a different track, starting as Solicitor General, then to Attorney General and finally Lord Chancellor. Biggest exceptions I can think of in the 20th century are Lord Haldane, who had been Secretary of State for War; Lord Cave, who had been Home Secretary; the aforementioned Lord Simon; the two Lord Hailshams, who held various notable posts; and Lord Kilmuir, who had also been Home Secretary. In the nineteenth century, I have difficulty finding any who held other cabinet level posts, although men like Lord Eldon and Lord Brougham had enough influence with just being Lord Chancellor (in very different ways in the case of those two, obviously). john k 20:04, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I strongly dislike the term "Rab Butler" because of the tautology involved. It would be better to refer to him in the title as 'Richard Austen "Rab" Butler", and then to use '"Rab" Butler' or '"Rab"' for shorter designations. I'm minded to change it, unless there are contrary views expressed. Hyuey 12 February 2006 14.22 (UTC)

There already have been "contrary views expressed". Proteus (Talk) 15:02, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

I rather agree with Hyuey, with a redirect from Rab Butler. And can't someone find a photo? Deipnosophista (talk) 10:44, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

I think the article should be moved to "R. A. Butler". "Rab" feels too informal.--Johnbull (talk) 21:37, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Wab?

What's the deal with "Wab or Hawold"? Is it vandalism or a trancription of a speech impediment? If the latter, a reference or elucidation would be good. 203.221.18.161 11:34, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Salisbury's speech impediment. Quite widely-quoted in accounts of the incident, though I can't trace where it started - presumably the memoirs of somebody who was in the Cabinet at the time.

signature

How else would he have signed himself? W C Fields?

Speech anecdote deleted

I deleted the following:

He was an increasingly successful public speaker. At one dinner party in June 1957, he began a speech with the words: "An after-dinner speech should be like a lady's dress - long enough to cover the subject and short enough to be interesting.".

This is only notable if Butler is the one who came up with the joke. He's not; I just heard the line spoken in The Courtship of Andy Hardy (1942), and presumably it's older than that. YLee (talk) 19:10, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Picture

Picture is awful. Can we get a better one? Drutt (talk) 19:06, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Great Offices of State

Please see Talk:Great Offices of State#How many held three? for a query about how many politicians achieved the same as Butler. Timrollpickering (talk) 20:30, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Butler and Macmillan

The article states "In January 1957 Eden resigned as prime minister, and did not give advice to Queen Elizabeth II as to who should succeed him." This is incorrect, and has been rebutted in the past. Eden (by then Lord Avon) wrote the following on 27 November 1970 to Sir Michael Adeane to place a proper record in the Royal Archives.

"I notice that Mr Macmillan's memoirs recently serialised repeat the statement first made in Lord Kilmuir's memoirs, that the Queen did not ask my advice about my successor. Mr Macmillan adds that neither did I volunteer such advice. These statements are incorrect. Her Majesty followed the constitutional procedure and asked me my advice as to her choice of successor. As I consider that all communications between the Sovereign and her Prime Minister are confidential, I do not propose to state here what that advice was, except to say that the course subsequently followed was consistent with that advice."

This is in the Avon Papers, and has been widely quoted in historical works. See also Robert Blake on Eden in the 1986 Dictionary of National Biography: "It is untrue, although often alleged, that the Queen did not consult him about his successor."

I am therefore amending the article accordingly. Salim555 (talk) 22:02, 10 January 2011 (UTC)