Talk:Seventh Enemy Offensive

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Skorzeny

This is the first time I've heard anything about Skorzny not being involved in the Operation, even every Wikipedia article references his role in the Operation. A search through various websites containing biographies on Skorzny or the events of Rosselsprung all mention his role in the operation. I've removed your bit about that being folklore, unless you have quasi-reputable evidence in which case we can perhaps mention a controversy? Sherurcij 15:14, July 15, 2005 (UTC)

I've done quite an extensive research project on this operation, and from my references he was not directly involved. One excellent book that describes his role in this operation, as well as Gran Sasso and others, is called "Skorzeny's Secret Missions". He was heavily involved in the planning of Roesselsprung, but was not directly involved in the execution. UEL 02:43, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Casualities

YU communist claim "more likely"? :D I just want to let you people know that the German "claims" are based on unit diaries and after action reports, also German units kept book daily on material and personel strenght, transfers and casualities so any sensible person tends to consider those "little bit" "more likely", but hey, enjoy your revisionism, i wont bother to edit this crap nor will any sensible person believe what is writen here. Its most like with the Warsaw ghetto uprising, German official day to day report names and declares basicly as martyrs for national socialist cause 13 germans during the whole "fighting" in the ghetto the "Stroop Report", yet the revisionist Zionists claim "hurdreds of germans killed". :D Just pathetic, as is this commie bs.

Cheers..—Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.248.159.240 (talk • contribs) 19:30,5 August 2007(UTC)

"You people"? Xyl 54 (talk) 12:05, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

It does seem rather preposterous to advance political claims made by leaders of disorganized partisan forces over official unit records of professionals. : —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.61.32.228 (talk • contribs) 07.54,8 January 2008 (UTC)

And "disorganized"? They had, according to just this article, a command structure, an Officer Training School, and were arranged in brigades; how is that not organized? And are "professionals" less likely to spin the facts, embroider the truth, tell lies? Xyl 54 (talk) 17:10, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

The Germans are likely to embellish the casualty reports for propaganda reasons. The operation was, after all, another in a string of humiliating defeats in this theater. Are we forgetting that the Germans had a little something called the "Ministry of Propaganda"? --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 17:33, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Most likely the number of 213 German KIA is for the Ground Attack only, not including the looses of the Airborn Force.

both combined should add up to a number comparable to that claimed by the Partisans. 134.2.212.61 (talk) 10:29, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Cleanup

I have added the clean up tag to this article as it requires some substantial work. Many claims and counter claims are listed that should be properly referenced. Much of it breaches WP:NPOV and some paragraphs need a substantial rewrite. Any questions can be left on my talk page. Woodym555 11:21, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I’ve split this into sections to make it easier to follow, but it feels a bit like re-arranging the deck-chairs on the Titanic.I don’t know enough about the subject to re-write it with a NPOV, but it certainly needs it. Xyl 54 (talk) 17:15, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Did my best to reference and organize the order of battle for both sides. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 10:45, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Operation Rösselsprung

Honestly, I am not sure whether "Operation Rösselsprung" ("Knight's leap") was only the name for the airborne landing on Drvar, not for other, much larger operations on the ground. This same landing is known as the "Desant na Drvar" (Raid on Drvar) by ex-Yugoslavs. I believe, though like I said I'm not 100% sure, that the Raid on Drvar/Operation Rösselsprung is just a part of the Seventh anti-Partisan Offensive. Does anyone have any info on this? --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 01:35, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Mrg, do you perhaps know the answer to the above? --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 00:59, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

P.S. If you insist on the attacker being combatant 1 (there's no policy on that, but it makes sense), please accordingly modify the remaining 6 Anti-Partisan Operations. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 01:02, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Here's the full extent of the problem. We've got three terms in use here: 1) "Seventh anti-Partisan Offensive", 2) "Raid on Drvar", and 3) "Operation Rösselsprung". The operation was much wider than the airborne raid, encompassing the coordinated drive of armored spearheads towards Partisan positions, as well as Chetnik concentrated assaults in support.
The meaning of the first term, "Seventh anti-Partisan Offensive", is known, as it encompasses the entire operation. However, the exact meaning of "Raid on Drvar" and "Operation Rösselsprung" are unclear. The meanings of both could encompass the whole of the operation, and could just as easily refer only to the airborne raid itself. Amazingly, this is very hard to clear up. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 01:31, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Citation from the book "Stvaranje Titove Jugoslavije": >>It was planned that operation "Rosselsprung" to be organized by blitz air raid to Drvar with simultaneous advancing of motorized and infantry forces from several directions, totally 20000 soldiers. Among them there were several thousands Ustashes and Chetniks.<< And there is a copy of the German document with order to 373. German division and 92. regiment (located in Bihać) for advancing. The title of the document is "Rosselsprung". So, this was code name not only for paratroopers attack on Drvar, but also for the complete operation in the area between Bihać, Knin, Livno, Bugojno, Jajce, Banja Luka, Prijedor, Bosanska Krupa. However, I do not speak German language to be 100% sure, and the document is too small to be scanned.Megaribi (talk) 21:32, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

I see, thank you. So "Raid on Drvar" would also refer to the entire operation and not just the airborne raid? --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 21:42, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, preferred name was "Drvar operation" which lasted for 12 days. After the para assault there were attacks to mountain Klekovača (May 27th-May 30th ). Tito escaped by airplane to Bari on June 3rd.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Megaribi (talk • contribs) 21:57, 20 June 2008

(outdent)
The spelling in the section title has been changed since I was here last; I've changed it back (and some spellings in the text). I don't know where the idea came from that the operation name should be spelt "Rößelsprung", but it isn't correct. German carries both the double-s and the eszett, to represent different sounds (one is ss, the other sz, though I’m not clear which is which), so an ss doesn’t automatically become a ß. Anyway a google search for "Rößelsprung" gives just 53 hits (compared to over 9,000 for "Rosselsprung"), and the German WP page uses the spelling "Rosselsprung", so I’d say that clinches it. Xyl 54 (talk) 22:23, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

casualties

|combatant2= Yugoslav Partisans |commander1= Kurt Rybka (commanding only the special forces) |commander2= Josip Broz Tito |strength2=One infantry brigade |strength1= some 3,500 German troops, several thousand Croatian troops |casualties2=Partisan claims:
500 killed
1,000 wounded
2,000 civilian casualties
German claims:
approximately 6,000 civilians and soldiers killed |casualties1=Partisan claims:
788 confirmed killed
881 wounded
50 missing
German claims:
213 killed
881 wounded
51 missing

usually 2 follows 1--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 10:49, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

The matter is cleared up. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 11:21, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Clean Up

G'day all, I know a little bit about this one, and have a copy of several journal articles on it. Given it is a BIG thing for the Partisans that Tito escaped and the Germans blew it, I think it is important to use military analyses of the operation as much as possible. So, I have sourced a RUSI article, and two published in the Journal of Slavic Military Studies, as well as the brief mentions this op gets in the main texts on this period in Yugoslavia (mainly Roberts).

My plan, as you will have guessed if you examine my edits, is to work through it para by para, adding inline citations and dispelling some well-known but errant nonsense (Evelyn Waugh was probably still writing 'Brideshead Revisited' in England when this little lot went down).

I warmly welcome any other editors who have an interest in improving this article. It is an obscure yet very interesting (to me at least) episode. Much misunderstood, and as one of the few small German parachute ops of the war, 'quite a pearler' as we say down here. Peacemaker67 (talk) 10:05, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Direktor, can you help with a cyrillic version of the translation of Raid on Drvar in the lede?Peacemaker67 (talk) 11:40, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Sure. For the record, the actual term used in Serbo-Croatian is not the equivalent of "raid", but "desant", which is the Serbo-Croatian spelling of the French word "descente" (the equivalent of the English "descent" of course). The exact meaning of "desant" in Serbo-Croatian is "landing", and it is a term that is used exclusively to refer to military amphibious or airborne landings. "Landing at Drvar" would be the more accurate translation, and I am not sure whether this operation really qualifies as a "raid" as such.

The way I would organize this article is I would rename (move) it to "Seventh Enemy Offensive" or "Operation Rösselsprung" or "Operation Knight's Leap", with a large section entitled "Landing on Drvar". The landing/raid is just a part of the wider offensive operation. Thoughts? --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 12:56, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

I think it should be renamed/moved, but the offensive was all about the coup de main airborne op. Rendulic knew he couldn't beat the Partisans at their own game at this stage, so killing Tito and destroying his headquarters was the aim of the whole offensive. The ground linkup and pursuit was in support of the airborne op and the pursuit resulted from its failure. Peacemaker67 (talk) 13:21, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Of course, but still, this article isn't just about the landing. No more than Operation Overlord was just about the Normandy landings, for example... --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 15:54, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. My plan is to continue expanding it, next will be the plans for the ground forces, then a properly sourced description of the actual operation itself followed by the aftermath. There are factual errors in the latter parts of the article which I haven't bothered correcting, as I always planned to rewrite them with sources. In the meantime I will read up on how to rename/move in accordance with the naming policy Peacemaker67 (talk) 22:57, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Help wanted: lack of sources for Chetnik involvement in this offensive

Other than the involvement of a few Chetniks in intelligence gathering before the operation and the inclusion of a few Chetniks in the glider-borne Draufganger Group that landed at the crossroads, I have been unable to find any references to other Chetniks in the ground force or the airborne assault units. Unless someone is able to bring some sources for this other than Vojska.net (which has its problems), I believe that they will need to be removed from the infobox at least. I will mention the minor involvements I have been able to source, but I'm not aware of any source that supports the inclusion of formations or even detachments of Chetniks being involved. Peacemaker67 (talk) 01:06, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Either way the Chetniks in the Draufganger Group should be mentioned.. I know I read somewhere that the Chetniks moved several corps as part of the wider Axis attack in support of the Drvar raid, but that was ages ago since Tomasevich avoids covering Drvar as it was slated for "The Partisans" (such a shame that man died before his life's work was done). That's all the "help" I can provide on this question unfortunately. --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 09:22, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

User:Knightserbia has removed the reference in the order of battle section to Chetnik formations being on the Axis side in this operation. I have not sourced the involvement of the Chetnik brigades that KnightSerbia has deleted, so I have not restored their inclusion. However, Chetniks are mentioned by Eyre as being part of the Draufganger Group that landed by glider at the Western Cross. I have restored the Chetnik flag on that basis. If I source the involvement of Chetnik formations in the battle I will return them to the order. Any attempt to editwar regarding the Draufganger Group Chetniks without providing reliable published sources that state that Chetniks were not present in this battle on the side of the Germans will be reported. Peacemaker67 (talk) 22:27, 5 January 2012 (UTC)