Talk:Ramanandi Sampradaya

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WikiProject Hinduism / Vaishnavism / Swaminarayan / Shaktism (Rated Stub-class)
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Someone added a sentence to the article that dealt with Ramanandi surnames. I took it out partly because it wasn't cited within the article, partly because it was not a grammatically correct sentence, and partly because the place from where I think the sentence was taken was a Ramanandi yahoo group site . (As for the last reason, I don't believe that a yahoo group site qualifies to be in the reference list of an encyclopedia article.)

But I would not mind discussing this matter further with anyone who feels otherwise. --Raimmmmm 22:05, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Cleanup after merge[edit]

I notice that there has been a recent merge into this small but interesting article. I may be able to add a few citations and adjust a few details. I may make the changes in the body of the article first and then supply the citation afterward, because the citation arranagement in the article now is minimal. If I am permitted a brief lag between adding the fact and adding the citation it would be helpful to my process. Buddhipriya (talk) 02:46, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

I have completed a small cleanup of the article. I left some of the original unsourced material, flagged with "citation needed" tags. I will stop work now, but there is quite a lot more that could be added to this article. It is a wonderful group that deserves better understanding. The connection with Tulsidas alone makes the sect noteworthy. Buddhipriya (talk) 05:08, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
I notice that the title of the article was changed to Ramanandi Sampradaya. I think the term sampradaya is not quite right here. Can there be more discussion before changes of this type are made? I understand that the term "sect" may have negative connotations to some, but it is very often used to describe these divisions. It is more common to refer to them as sects than as a sampradaya, which is a more technical term. There seems to be a lot of attention on articles now related to "denominations", "schools" etc. but the differences between these terms may not have been fully discussed. Buddhipriya (talk) 06:23, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
In two cases the article text changed sect to sampradaya where that term was not used in the cited sources. To address the concern about the word "sect" I simply dropped it, since that more accurately reflects what the cited sources said. It is not wrong to call it a sampradaya, but my impression is that the more common way of referring to this group is simply as the Ramanandi. Buddhipriya (talk) 07:44, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
I totally trust that you are the expert on this. My input is only provisional. Joshua Jonathan (talk) 07:52, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
I am not an expert in anything except my own foolishness. When people claim to be experts on Wikipedia, run the other way! I may do more on this article in coming weeks because they are such a wonderful and important group. Thank you again for your efforts in improving this stub. Buddhipriya (talk) 07:57, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
If we can expand this article fivefold (with citations obviously) within the next couple of days we can get this to DYK. If we are going to improve this article anyway let's not waste this opportunity. Correct Knowledge«৳alk» 00:49, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
There is more that I can contribute, with citations. Personally I try to avoid making too many changes to articles too quickly, as that can make it more difficult for other editors to keep up with what is going on. For that reason my process is often to make a few changes then leave the article alone for a week or so to see if others accept the changes. If so, I make a few more. I personally find the slower process more enjoyable. But by all means move at the pace that seems best to you! Buddhipriya (talk) 06:12, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

Policy on transliteration[edit]

Since this article may be expanded, it would be good to reach agreement on transliteration style. Since this is a stub that is being built up from a small start, we have the opportunity to use a high-quality transliteraton style from the onset. My personal preference would be to use IAST consistently, but I recognize that other editors may prefer using IAST on first use of a term, with simple transliteration thereafter. If Wikipedia is ever to be seen as a useful source of information on Indic content it must eventually try to conform to the standards of language display for the field of Indology. For example, it is not possible to accurately reproduce many citation to the literature unless correct transliteration is used. That is why I always try to encourage more use of accurate transliteration. My views on this issue are detailed at User:Buddhipriya/IASTUsage. Buddhipriya (talk) 06:30, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

Let's use IAST consistently then. I am not very good with diacritics, but I learn quickly. If you could convert terms in the article, as it is right now, into IAST I'll make sure my future edits reflect the correct transliterations. Correct Knowledge«৳alk» 01:27, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
No rush on this, so let's see if other editors may prefer other approaches. I will add diacritics when I see them used in the sources I cite. Due to time limitation I will probably add things very slowly over coming months. Please feel free to work at whatever pace you prefer. No need to be limited by me. Buddhipriya (talk) 01:44, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Is "Sanatana Dharma" in the cited source?[edit]

The following cited material was added: "The majority of Hindu immigrants to Trinidad and Tobago belonged to Vaishnava sects such as the Ramanandi. Hindus in Trinidad and Tobago currently practice Sanātana Dharma based on the teachings of Ramananda.[19]" I do not have the source available. Did it actually include the phrase "Sanātana Dharma"? It seems unlikely to me that this contemporary expression would have been used in a academic historical source. If it did not appear in the source I would prefer to rephrase, as this expression is a contemporary way of referring to these issues. Buddhipriya (talk) 02:04, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

This is the source and yes it uses the phrase "Sanātana Dharma". It's not actually a historical source. Correct Knowledge«৳alk» 02:52, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
Thank you for clarifying this. I am sure you are correct, but for me the link goes to a page that Google Books says cannot be viewed. Regarding the issue of rewording around the phrase "Sanata dharma", would you object to that? I think the main point being made here has to do with the sectarian affiliation of the Hindu immigrants to that region. The phrase has political associations that may not be needed to make that point. Buddhipriya (talk) 02:57, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
Of course not. If you feel rewording the sentence will make the section clearer and less political please go ahead. Let's follow Bold Revert Discuss. Feel free to make any changes to the article including to the content that I've added. In case I've problem with it, I'll bring it here. I'll follow the same principle and hopefully you'll be okay with it. It'll save both of our time. Correct Knowledge«৳alk» 03:04, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Ramananda's connection with Ramanuja.[edit]

The article had the following sentence added, which is certainly true: "The scholars also disagree on Ramananda's connection with Ramanuja." In fact there was a schism between the Ramanandi and the Ramanuji which I can document. I have a particular source on library order that will be helpful for that. The issue points to the difference between talking about a "sampradaya", which puts emphasis on lines of teaching succession, and a sect as a distinct ethnic and religious group. The schism between these groups went directly to issues of lineage. Talking about the groups as distinct socioethnic groups does not require reaching agreement on the (reputed) lines of succession. Buddhipriya (talk) 02:10, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Please go ahead and add content based upon your source. I also wanted to add another paragraph on the historical revisionism that occurred in Ramanandi in the late 19th and early 20th century. Correct Knowledge«৳alk» 02:57, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
As you correctly point out, there are revisionist issues that can be explored. I suggest that the best place for the revisionist material on the nature of Ramananda himself (including what he may have taught) would best go in the article on him. The history of the sect itself, and the schism with the Ramanujis, is appropriate for the article on the sect. Repeating too much information about Ramananda in the article does not seem necessary to me if it can be found in the article on Ramananda. Buddhipriya (talk) 03:02, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
I understand that. I was referring specifically to historical revisionism with regards to Dasnamis and Muslims. I think that is relevant to the smapraday as a whole rather than Ramananda. Correct Knowledge«৳alk» 03:06, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
Thank you, I look forward to learning from you on that aspect of the history. Buddhipriya (talk) 03:10, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
That is very modest of you. It's hallmark of a good editor. You've my respect. Correct Knowledge«৳alk» 03:12, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Use of sfn template[edit]

The article currently uses the sfn template as a standard for citation. That template does not seem to provide an easy way to add either a quote or an extended citation. The cite template has parameters for quote, etc, but sfn does not, and use of the loc field in sfn does not seem to work well (unless I have made an error with it). Is there a way to show a note of the following form using sfn, or would we need to change templates? Example: "The moon is really far away from the Earth." -Begin Citation: John Doe, Astronomy is Fun, 2012, Quote: "The moon is so far away it is hard to even measure it." At: Table of astronomic distances, entry 42, page 199. End Citation Buddhipriya (talk) 04:37, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Add the quote, followed by the reference:

{{quote:The moon is so far away it is hard to even measure it.{{sfn|Doe|2012|p=199, entry 42}}}} {{Citation | last =Doe | first =John | year =2012 | title =Astronomy is Fun}}
The advantage of thesfn-template is that it's very use to copy sources to other pages, and to make several references to the same source using a very short tag. See Zen for an example. But, I admit, the sfn-template is raarely used, so if you prefer another template, go ahead. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 06:39, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

If you want to know America you should talk to Americans-[edit]

has anybody made an effort to talk to any Saint, ascetic of the Ramanandi sect before doing any editing in this article ???