Talk:Ramon Llull

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Trivia?[edit]

"In the DC comic book series The Sandman, one of the characters, a writer named Richard Madoc, puts forth the idea of writing a story about Paracelsus and Raymond Lulli being the same person. This is, in real life, highly unlikely, given that they lived a century or more apart."

I suggest that this is perhaps a joke in the comic book series. Celsus / Paracelsus (an assumed name - Para / Celsus) as a parallel to Para / Lull - hence, merely a pun!

Spelling[edit]

There are a whole load of variant spellings for this chap. Would definitely need redirect links for the most common ones. I've found at least Raymond Lull and Ramon Lull, and I know there are a long list more.

I'm going to add redirect pages - Raymund Lull and Raymond Lulli Cimon avaro

Dead link[edit]

The link to the Ramon Llull Database, University of Barcelona appears dead. Does anyone have a new one? -- Jmabel | Talk 04:36, Oct 16, 2004 (UTC)

Book[edit]

The article seems to suggest that other attributions of books to Llull are dubious, but I see consistently on the net (including in es:Arabista, which I am translating) unhesitating attribution to him of the Book of the Gentile and the Three Wise Men (Llibre del gentil e dels tres savis). I see no reason to doubt these and am adding it to the article. There seems general agreement it is a major work (I have not read it). -- Jmabel | Talk 04:36, Oct 16, 2004 (UTC)

It would be useful to document the differentiation between Lull and Pseudo-Lull as part of the meme, as both were considered to be the same person for much of the period during which Lull was influential. Throwing half the corpus out thanks to an anachronous stylistic discovery as some have tried to do is specious, but the controversy should be mentioned from NPOV.

After reading as possible about Ramon Llull (without spending a fortune), I see no reason to doubt he wrote this book. I'd like to point out though, that the Alchemical works often attributed to Llull were more likely (again, due to research by Anthony Banner - I am NOT Anthony Banner by the way) to be written by someone in London 16 years after Llull's death using his name as Author. It also should be noted that even with his mysticism, and quite revolutionary works, Alchemy still seems to contradict his principles, his love of God and his beliefs. - Unamed Llull enthusiast

That's because you have an anachronistic Enlightenment viewpoint coloured by attempts from the freemasonic wing of the same Enlightenment to corner such hermeticism for itself. Alchemy was simply an early form of Chemistry in many respects, and was actively pursued by such as the Jesuit Athanasius Kircher, Cardinal Richelieu and much later Pope Leo XIII, when Nuncio in Belgium. It can be artificially separated (artificially because the general thinking is that it involved both spiritual and physical refinement as an eidetic unity) into oparational and theoretical forms, and the latter was entirely conformant with the Creed, subject to the proviso that at least one of the major steps, "the massacre of the innocents" was often a significant stumbling block, as it was sometimes taken too literally and became a watchword of groups which were definitely not Christian (see Gilles de Rais). The Operational is broadly split between the medicinal (including the botanic, thereby also the crop rotation cycle), the metaphysical, and the remainder (which should in principle include the metallurgical, although there has been little work done on this). The most significant original alchemical lab still extant is in the Hieronomite monastery of El Escorial, founded in the 1560s on lines entirely based on Lull's thinking by the ultra-orthodox Phillip II. The furthest one might go in such an argument is to point out that the Inquisition, itself very much indebted to Konrad of Urach, who gave Lull's Montpelier University its first charter in 1220, stood against such work, for reasons it kept to itself which may be associated with their blockage of Phillip's Escorial project in its widest sense as the Third Temple: one finds an echo in their oppression of Jan van Helmont sixty years later, which led to Leo's investigation. It may in a wider cosmological sense also be part of their pressure on Galileo.

Nationality[edit]

I noticed recently that Category:Spanish philosophers was changed to the non-existent Category:European philosophers. Unfortunately, the latter doesn't exist, so I have removed. it. I presume that the reason for the removal of Category:Spanish philosophers was the anachronism of using the term "Spanish" to refer to a Catalan of this period, a point well taken in my view. That category in general seems a bit dubious, since it includes Maimonides and Averroes as well, not exactly Spaniards. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:46, Nov 10, 2004 (UTC)

Can't you talk in English about Medieval or Roman Spain (including Portugal)? It can be misleading but from what I read in Wikipedia, English has a wider concept of Spain (=Hispania) than Spanish (and Portuguese). Would Category:Italian philosophers be limited to post-Union ones? Anyway, you could have Category:Iberian philosophers if you want a geographical superset.
Besides, I wouldn't delete reasonable empty categories? Is there a policy?
And I see that there is a subCategory:Spanish theologians -- Error 23:54, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I suppose we could restore Category:European philosophers, but it's hard to see what use it is without a category page: it's not a subcategory or super-category of anything else, so no one would ever navigate to it. I personally don't like the tendency to categorize everything in terms of present-day nation states, but if the category of "Spanish philosophers" includes Averroes, it should include Llull; User:Perique des Palottes, who I believe is from Mallorca, obviously thinks otherwise, presumably on the basis of Catalan nationalism. I doubt he'll be any happier with Category:Spanish theologians.
As for English-language usage on this, it's inconsistent. Talking about Roman times, we are more likely to use "Iberia"; al-Andalus is probably most commonly "Moorish Spain". "Spain" without qualification tends to imply Christian rule. Characterizing a person as "Spanish" is, of course, often more contentious than characterizing a territory as part of Spain. "Italian" is much less contentious: the only people in Italy that I'm aware of who might have trouble with that label are the German-speakers in Udine, and maybe some Slavs around Trieste. To the best of my knowledge, for example, Sicilians all consider themselves Italian and Sicilian, whereas a lot of Catalans and Basques resent being called "Spanish". -- Jmabel | Talk 06:39, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)
I noticed that Italian philosophers does not include Roman or Greek ones. Maimonides could also be in Category:African philosophers or even Category:Asian philosophers. -- Error 05:07, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
You may find it more useful to think less in terms of nationality and more in the sense of philologicsl content. The Spanish School was important for its reinsertion into the philosophical corpus of many lost Greek texts saved by the Arabs, via Toledo and Girona, and also in Jewish philosophy in the Zoharists of Leon. A case may also be made for the wider Catalan School's influence on such Languedocian schools of thought as Chivalry, the Cours d'Amour in the wider sense ppromoted by the Troubadour culture, and also in the links to the Montpellier and Narbonne Jewish masters. The above viewpoint is anachronistic in the Lullian sense as it ignores the Galician-Portuguese axis extant at the time (demonstrated in many pieces of contemporary music, for example) and the cross-Pyrennean territories of the Basques and Catalans: it is more than somewhat Francoist in its attempt to corset the multicultural peninsula into a single Spanish identity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.29.97.188 (talk) 05:40, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

No smoking[edit]

Despite appearances in the image, Llull is not smoking a cigarette. Tobacco was introduced to Europe from the New World in the 15th century. The "wisp of smoke" is in fact a long, narrow cartoon word bubble. (anon, March 19, 2005)

The words are legible: Lux mea est ipse Dominus: "My light is that same Lord".

Does anyone know where this image came from? Mjhrynick 22:01, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Not its ultimate origin (at least not offhand), but see http://www.sil.si.edu/digitalcollections/hst/scientific-identity/CF/display_results.cfm?alpha_sort=L on the site of the Smithsonian, then search for "Llull" and click through on the image; you'll see a broader context of the page it was taken from. I suppose if you wanted provenance further up the line you could contact the Smithsonian. - Jmabel | Talk 22:38, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
I know where is exposed the original picture: The Pharmazie-Historisches Museum (Museum of Pharmacy), Basel, Switzerland. https://pharmaziemuseum.unibas.ch/en/index_en.html [ Jacopo Lotti. Florence, Italy. 17 August 2014 ]— Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.235.51.198 (talk) 19:51, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Mnemonics[edit]

I seem to remember he played a pretty big role in the history of the art of memory. No mention of that in the current article, though. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:09, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be ironic if your recollection were inaccurate? :-) Sorry for the poor joke, but I don't know enough about Llull to know if you're right. Jwrosenzweig 05:53, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
Yes, "I seem to remember" was a deliberate choice of words. FWIW, I remember this coming up in passing when I was reading about Giordano Bruno, 30 years ago, so may memory's really not so bad, it's just that that is a long time to remember details of a side-issue. I'm pretty sure this was mentioned in Frances Yates's work on Bruno and the Hermetic tradition. I don't know much about Llull, either, hence the question.-- Jmabel | Talk 06:33, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
You'd do better to look up her work on the subject, also her seminal thinking in the essays on Lull and Bruno (ISBN 0710009526) published shortly before her death. I must at that point declare myself to be on the edge of OR as a member of the Warburg's Scholastics Group, as I'll have to open the discussion of the publication of Volume 2 some time with them. Post Mortem publications have a fine mediaeval tradition! The problem will probably be financing it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.29.97.188 (talk) 06:08, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Lull influenced Giordano Bruno big time. Bruno mixed Lull's system with that of classical mnemonics, and used it not just for memorizing words and concepts, but also as a way of representing the structure of reality and acquiting 'higher knowledge'. JP

FWIW you can think of Llull's whole art as a mnemonic device. It's kind of a misconception that it's a tool for generating knowledge because the terms are already set and assumptions are built in. It's a mnemonic system to aid the process of invention, but does still require interpretation. Happy to add cites in the near future, but Yates and Eco come to mind off-hand. This thread doesn't look like it's in a hurry :) --Rhododendrites (talk) 22:54, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

Epiphany[edit]

"He had an epiphany..." is incorrect. Contrary to current casual usage, an epiphany is the appearance in the natural world of a being from an unnatural world. Llull became obsessed with ascetic religion after a period of sensual pleasure. What turned him was a glimpse of his girlfriend's cancerous breast. If no one objects, I will add this information to the article. Lestrade 13:54, 10 October 2005 (UTC)Lestrade

I've never heard this one, but am curious to know where the information came from (as actual curiosity, not as a challenge). According to his [auto]biography (Contemplative Life), he had several visions. Most, if not all, were of Jesus on the cross, as the user below points out. No mention of a cancerous breast. He was writing to his mistress during the first one, tried to sleep it off, then it happened again later. Started a pretty speedy road to asceticism, abandoning his family, and dedicating his life to the spread of Christianity. Every once in a while he'd get a sign or vision from God to guide him in making a decision... --Rhododendrites (talk) 23:01, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
Carl Jung tells this story in the first part of Man and His Symbols. That may be where Lestrade got it from. I wonder where Jung got it from. Mbarbier (talk) 13:10, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

I think it's only fair to mention here that what also drew Ramon to pursue faith, was having 5 visions of Christ crucified, which I believe would be stated in his autobiography and in Anthony Banners' book "Dr. Illuminatus". Though this is not to contradict the above account as I believe that had an impact on Llull as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.249.57.48 (talk) 11:51, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Lull and his franciscanism[edit]

Franciscans´ work is frecuently considered apart from their "franciscanism". This is a huge mistake. If we really want to understand their thinking we have to include their "change of route" in their complete lives. Starting at the point that everything that was so far considered -only- as cause and effect changes. Pax et Bonum! —This unsigned comment was added by Maria Luisa (talkcontribs) 18 March 2006.

Thoughts on Lull section[edit]

Seems highly POV to me. If anyone would be willing to rewrite it, it'd be much appreciated. DoctorWorm7 01:37, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

What section are you referring to? -- Jmabel | Talk 04:37, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
What seems wrong to me is: I first found out about Ramon Llull on the 'List of Famous Catalan People' page. It seems since then the page has rewritten/published and he is no longer on that list under any category. I believe that is a gross oversight. - Unamed Llull enthusiast

Llull and Chivalry[edit]

I've added his The Book of the Order of Chivarly to the list, but this is a rather influential work. Perhaps expansion on his knighthood and chivalric ideals in this article would be a nice addition. Cariel 14:45, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Second mission after third mission?[edit]

The article currently says that Llull returned from his third mission in 1308, but he didn't leave on his second mission until 1314! Something's not right here. --Reuben 17:35, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Spain?[edit]

This edit turned "Balearic Islands, now part of Spain" into "Balearic Islands, Spain". I have reverted that. There was no state "Spain" at the time. The edit also added "Spanish" to the list of languages in which he wrote. I wouldn't be surprised if Llull was literate in almost any Romance language of his time (insofar as they existed in written form) but I am unaware of him having ever written in any vernacular language we would now consider an ancestor of Spanish. If he did, I'd like to see this elaborated upon. If he didn't, I'd like to see this removed. - Jmabel | Talk 18:54, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Lullism by Darren's Lost Arts of the Mind[edit]

This was posted in a newsletter so I thought you guys might find it relevant to possibly add to the article?

The memory system developed by Ramon Lull was known as Lullism. Lull was a 13th Century Majorcan who spent his youth working as a troubadour and courtier. After a spiritual experience whilst on top of Mount Randa, Lull believed he had perceived the attributes of God and he set out to develop a sort of elemental cosmology of nature inspired by this experience. At their heart, Lull's arts are based on the nine attributes of God: Goodness, greatness, eternity, power, wisdom, will, virtue, truth and glory. Lull claimed that because these concepts were fundamental to nature, they should form the natural structure for the study of any subject. Such an interest with paying attention to the names or attributes of God may sound strange to the modern mind, but it was similar to the practices of the mystical branches of both Judaism (the Cabala) and Islam (Sufism) that were contemporary with Lull. Lullism became ever more complex with varied diagrams depicting the inter-relationship of these concepts.

At a practical level, Lull believed in two methods for improving memory. Firstly, medicines, although he does not recommend taking this route. Exactly what medicines he means are now lost to us, as is most of the medieval herbalist tradition. The second method was frequent meditation upon what one wishes to remember. In other words: repetition; a fundamental, if simple, part of building memory. However, tantalisingly there is a lost work by Lull called 'The Book of the Seven Planets' which is said to contain the true method for memory enhancement. Whilst we no longer know exactly what this method consisted of, the emphasis on the number seven seems important. Interestingly, psychologists now know that seven is a fundamental number to our memory system: it's the maximum number of 'bits' of information the average person can hold at once in their short term memory.

If not done by the next time I check, I can attempt to incorporate anything this might have to offer, I just want to understand it here and log it here where it's relevant so I can delete the newsletter. Tyciol 20:03, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Not really a lot there. Yes, history records him as one of the two great experts on the art of memory; we don't mention that, and we should. The other was Giordano Bruno; many of Bruno's relevant works survive. I read part of one of them 30 years ago, it was not among Bruno's more inspiring works. - Jmabel | Talk 04:57, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
See my notes above — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.29.97.188 (talk) 06:13, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Franciscan?[edit]

This edit directly contradicts what was there before, now saying that he was not a Franciscan. Does someone have a citation either way? - Jmabel | Talk 05:19, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Anthony Banner wrote a book about Ramon Llull under the title "Dr. Illuminatus" because Ramon Llull's nickname was 'Enlightened Teacher'. In this book I believe Banner states that Ramon became a Tertiary Franciscan, so possibly just an affiliate member due to his own mission abroad (but that's just me talking). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.249.57.48 (talk) 11:47, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Christian Kaballah[edit]

I thought Lull was one of the primary exponents of a Christian interpretation of the Kaballah? Wasn't he supposed to have a had a mystical vision in the mountains of Aragan and Catalonia? Its amazing how many figures from that period in Spain sought a syncretic vision of Judaism, Christianty and Islam - Abulafia, Lull etc. If they had succeeded think where we would be now! ThePeg 19:19, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

It might be more sensible to reverse the definition: the South of France, with the exception of the Minervois settled by Roman ex-Legionaries, retained its links from the first colonization by the Greeks. Thus, not only do we see the presence of the unorthodox end of the Eastern Empire's creeds in the broad church we term Catharism, but also the more liberal Romance response to the somewhat brutal Nordic north (by that I mean the Normans, cousins at very few degrees of remove with the Kiev vikings, all too close to the Huns and the then-current problem, the Mongols.
Consequently, there is much to be seen in the Sephardic Jewish Schools collaborating with the Greek and Arab thinking, particularly in Spain but also in Lull's Montpelier, in the search for basic knowledge. That it should produce thinking flavoured by the basal creed of the individual concerned is therefore hardly surprising, but to single him out as a proponent of a school which never really existed outside of that framework is excessive. It is possibly more justifiable to examine Frances Yates' thinking for the reasons behind the Medici adoption of his thinking and Phillip II's subsequent redesign of the Escorial as a renaissance of his work, both in the alchemical domain, were it not that that too never really led anywhere in and of itself. That in its way (through van Helmont to Newton and Leibnitz) did indeed trigger where we are now: it's just that the Enlightenment has been every whit as ruthless as any other form of Victor's History in suppressing everything not to their own glory, by refusing to be anything other that utterly periphrastic about their own roots, and in attempting to recast what as they could not deny as a form of self-justificatory mystic mythology (the Rosicrucian/Freemasonic nonsense of the sort spouted by Christian Jaques), an ill-conceived conceit which Yates utterly blew out of the water.

Llull vs Lull ?[edit]

Is there a source for "Llull"? I've been reading about him recently, and none of the books I'm looking at use the name as given in the title of this article; they all use "Lull". I thought it was a typo, but it is too systematic. The.helping.people.tick (talk) 13:59, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

All the sources in English and Catalan that i've been reading mention him as Llull. That's his Catalan name.
On the other hand, i am mostly reading about him in context of his being the first notable writer in Catalan, and less about his works in Christian philosophy, Mysticism etc., where it is likely to appear as Lull, Lullius, etc. Those other names are mentioned in the opening paragraphs. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 14:56, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
Live with it. You're back in the days of mediaeval spelling, where names had no fixed form. Both are correct, and it's better to preserve the originals than standardise them for our modern taxonomic world. He was Majorcan, not Catalan, and although both spoke the vernacular Latin of the South (rather than the Frankish Germanic Latin of the Paris universities, for example), his residency in Montpellier, on the eastern limits of the Languedoc, probably meant he spoke with more of a provençale twang than the accent of Barcelona. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.29.97.188 (talk) 11:15, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Doctor Phantasticus / Ramón lo Foll[edit]

I've seen several sources saying that Llull called himself "Doctor Phantasticus" or "Ramón lo Foll"[1][2][3], but the sources seem sparse. Anyone know more about this? --macrakis (talk) 04:16, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Dali painting[edit]

I think Dali did a painting on him. TCO (talk) 02:42, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

alchemy and other concerns[edit]

Hopefully in the next week sometime I'll the time to do some serious work to this article. I've been working with Llull a lot recently, so have a pile of refs handy. In the meantime, I'll just point out the most egregious problem with the article as it stands: Llull was not and alchemist. Sometime after his death a large body of alchemical, mystical work was misattributed to him. The problem got so bad that during the late middle ages/renaissance some say there were more fake Llull works ("the pseudo-Llull") than those he did write. This is well documented despite still frequent references to "Llull's alchemy" or "Llull the mystic." He even condemns transmutation. ...Anyway...I'll just leave that there for now :) --— Rhododendrites talk |  03:19, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

changes[edit]

Made several revisions. Can't do anymore now but the article still needs work.

  • added a couple CNs
  • added a couple sources (more are needed for sure -- I have some I will hopefully add soon, but for now...)
  • lots of copyediting, etc.
  • moved/tweaked existing content for new sections
  • new section structure
    • Early life and family
    • Conversion
    • Nine years of solitude and early work (probably not an ideal name)
    • Llull's Art (this section definitely needs a better explanation of his art -- and I hope to add Eco's criticisms thereof)
      • Mechanical aspect
    • Literature and other works (more should probably go here, but I wasn't sure what from what was presently on the page )
    • Missionary work and missionary education
      • Later North African missions, Council, and death
    • Reputation and reception after death
      • Mathematics, statistics, and classification
      • Art and architecture
      • Modern fiction
      • Attitude toward Judaism (as far as I know, Judaism wasn't a major topic in his work, but this section seems like a more appropriate place for what is basically criticism)
    • Works
      • The Pseudo-Llull (a desperately needed section. I should also say I removed unqualified mentions of Llull and alchemy and a book he didn't actually write from the list of works)
      • Notable works (I'm not sure what inclusion criteria we're using here, but I mostly left this list as it was)

--— Rhododendrites talk |  23:01, 23 November 2013 (UTC)