Talk:Rawhide Boys Ranch

This article was nominated for deletion on 16 July 2009 (UTC). The result of the discussion was keep.

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	This article was accepted on 4 July 2009 by reviewer Giants27 (talk · contribs).

The following Wikipedia contributor may be personally or professionally connected to the subject of this article. Relevant policies and guidelines may include conflict of interest, autobiography, and neutral point of view.

Rawhide1683 (talk · contribs)

The following Wikipedia contributor may be personally or professionally connected to the subject of this article. Relevant policies and guidelines may include conflict of interest, autobiography, and neutral point of view.

Bingo478 (talk · contribs)

The following Wikipedia contributor may be personally or professionally connected to the subject of this article. Relevant policies and guidelines may include conflict of interest, autobiography, and neutral point of view.

12.54.62.99 (talk · contribs)

Third party sources for the 'History' and 'The ranch' sections[edit]

The only third party source we have for the 'History' section (i) is mainly about Starr & (ii) contradicts material (e.g. acreage) that is (a) already in the article & (b) in the Ranch website's 'History'.

The only third-party sources in the 'The ranch' section fail to verify any material in it -- again leaving us with just the Ranch website. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk^(P) 19:18, 17 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I added 3 sources to the "ranch" section, confirming membership in two organizations and one reference showing their acceptance of donated vehicles for charity. I actually found the web site of one of the organizations they claimed to be a member of, and it did list member facilities and Rawhide wasn't in the list, so I deleted the claim. One of the organizations doesn't have a list of members so I left the fact tag on that single claim, someone might have more success proving/disproving that claim. -- Atama ^chat 20:58, 17 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've trimmed-down/altered the donations material to what this (and one other source already in the article) said. The original text gave an excessive amount of detail, and the article is still overloaded with rawhide-sourced material -- so trimming it out wherever it can be done without mutilating the article is, I think, preferable. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk^(P) 05:44, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I am adding and will continue this week (week of January 17, 2011) to add many new third party sources to support the content in the history section as well as new content supported by third party sources.Nabor11 (talk) 21:35, 18 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I have concerns about a couple of your new sources: Central Wisconsin Resorter does not appear to be particularly reliable ("A vacationland shopper with interesting articles and great advertised values from local merchants ~ Available FREE at many area businesses"[1]) and I cannot find any evidence online even as to the existence of the New London Press Shopper. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk^(P) 02:51, 19 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

In March 2009 the New London Press Star was merged with the Manawa Advocate, the Clintonville Tribune Gazette, the former Waupaca County Post, the Weyauwega Chronicle and the Iola Herald \ into the new Waupaca County Post, circulation: 17,000. All these newspapers were and are owned by Journal Communications, Inc. I'm betting this is from the Press Star. Nabor, are you working from actual newspapers or from some kind of clippings or handouts provided by the Ranch? --Orange Mike | Talk 22:15, 19 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Clippings and cutouts from historical folders provided by the ranch. In other words, I have hard copy of every source. But, I've purposely stayed away from any slanted, biased or otherwise objectionable material from the smaller sources. Dates and programs begun or buildings built, or boys treated. I think you need to weigh that along with the veracity of the source. I don't think these sources are any less reliable than two of the sources used to support content in the Controversy section, The Wisconsin Light or the Advocate (at that particular time in their journalistic developement) and it took me 9 months to get copies of those articles! I am planning to make a lot more additions and would be happy to share those ahead of time in a word document to avoid haggling over the editing.Nabor11 (talk) 22:51, 19 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The 'History' section has become essentially a 'Trivia' section -- a bloated and fragmentary list of minor occurrences, based upon mentions in generally obscure local newspapers (some of which would have questionable reliability). I would suggest that it falls afoul of WP:INDISCRIMINATE. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk^(P) 02:40, 20 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry. Which one of the 7 points under this challenge are you questioning this? I'm beginning to think that you are not objective on this topic. These are valid points of history reported in the news most closest to this remote place. Do we need to take this up a level for review or can you give me an objective perspective? I based this update on the BSA and the Catholic Church of America entries.Nabor11 (talk) 08:26, 20 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information ... As explained in the policy introduction, merely being true, or even verifiable, does not automatically make something suitable for inclusion in the encyclopedia." The indiscriminate collection of every mention of Rawhide Boys Ranch in every local newspaper, would appear to come under this heading. (There is no indication that the 7 examples listed in WP:INDISCRIMINATE are meant to be exhaustive.) Hrafn^Talk_Stalk^(P) 10:33, 20 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

1. Wisconsin Light and the Advocate were actual newspapers; the Central Wisconsin Resorter is an advertising throwaway aimed at the tourist market.

2. I also agree that we're getting into fancruft and trivia here, seemingly intended to swamp the substantial discussion in a flood of petty minutia. --Orange Mike | Talk 15:05, 20 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I hear you. Let me see if I can adjust the copy/references to address your concerns while still improving the article from where it was. Nabor11 (talk) 17:45, 20 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

WP:OR on Starr Academy[edit]

I'm removing the following material as being (i) not verifiable to the cited source (ii) introduced by a WP:COI editor & (iii) most probably WP:OR. If a reliable third party source can be found for it, it can be reintroduced (but I would suggest care in rewriting to the new source, to ensure elimination of OR). Hrafn^Talk_Stalk^(P) 10:38, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The ranch is also home to the Starr Academy. The academy is the center of the student’s education while at the ranch as it suits 7th through 12th grade boys and aides in the therapeutic and counseling process. The academy consists of the John J. and Ethel D. Keller Education Center, which houses the classrooms, computer labs and library, and the Chester L. Krause Fieldhouse. The school has recently expanded with the additions of the Fine Arts Auditorium and Student Activity Center in 2004 and the Gabreilse Woodworking Shop in 2007.

[End of OR material. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk^(P) 10:38, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]