Talk:Reality

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Pending changes[edit]

This article is one of a number (about 100) selected for the early stage of the trial of the Wikipedia:Pending Changes system on the English language Wikipedia. All the articles listed at Wikipedia:Pending changes/Queue are being considered for level 1 pending changes protection.

The following request appears on that page:

Comments on the suitability of theis page for "Penfding changes" would be appreciated.

Please update the Queue page as appropriate.

Note that I am not involved in this project any much more than any other editor, just posting these notes since it is quite a big change, potentially

Regards, Rich Farmbrough, 23:41, 16 June 2010 (UTC).

Quantum mechanics again:[edit]

"Furthermore, the limit cases at each end are also unattainable: we cannot get a precise measurement of either property[position/momentum], for the principle demands that each such measurement would have to indeterminately alter the other."

a precise measurement of momentum which indeterminately alters position - using an infintely long wavelenght photon, adds zero energy and defines the position of the measured particle to within that infinite wavelenght (which is equivalent to a 'indeterminately alter the other') this is physically impossible because a photon with an infinitely long wavelenght is a mathematical construction and not a physical reality - however this is the reason the limit cases are unattainable, (infinitely short wavelenght in the other case) not the fact that such a measurement cause an indetermincy, but because that measurement in principle is un-physical. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.198.63.214 (talk) 15:15, 25 June 2010 (UTC)


"New to this. Just wanted to add that it looks like the QM section needs some major edits. It is not clearly articulated how QM is really relevant to the rest of the articles and there are several statements that are either vague or incorrect. Not sure how these things get edited but this section needs reviewing for sure."--Forreswiki (talk) 04:21, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

The Axiom axiom?[edit]

I hope no-one states anything about anything, as fact. I like JP-Sartre's work, but the fact that he is a published author, and famous because of that 'truth', doesn't make his views ANY more correct/valid/truthful than anyone else's. I might wake up, and discover all 'this' to have been a dream, but I'll play along with it, just in case it isn't. I think maths it based on the axiom: The differnce between ZERO and ONE, is equal to the difference between ONE and TWO. This is self-evidently false, the former is infinite, the latter is only an increase by the magnitude of TWO. I see a big schism here. But what does it matter? I like this article, but remember that empiriscism doesn't grow on trees, it's just a relativly useful tool, invented by you/me/us/bee! Prying open my third eye (talk) 05:16, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Difference_(mathematics)160.36.8.226 (talk) 20:54, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

What reality might not be[edit]

Can someone please edit this section and put references, or just delete it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.40.156.125 (talk) 12:50, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Definition[edit]

The definition Reality is the state of things as they actually exist just begs the question "How do things actually exist?" Another problem is that by this definition, realism is impossible to disprove and therefore scientifically meaningless. In one sense, the mind is part of reality, but the article is all about belief vs reality. I would suggest, "Reality is that which exists independently of belief and before experimental observation." Kauffner (talk) 13:07, 18 September 2010 (UTC) But belief is a thing which exists in reality ~~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.134.227.18 (talk) 22:42, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

This article should be self-referencing Wikipedia![edit]

You can forget this entire article and just add this.

Anaïs Nin: "We don't see things as they are, we see things as we are."

I have lived these words since first reading them in my teens, and they still hold true today. Whether it be anything from personal interactions to global international politics, the way people behave in the goodness they do or the threats they perceive, it all boils down to what they "think".

But this article smacks of rhetorical nonsense. Much of it seems to be a synergistic effort in writing an academic prose, with referencing. Sadly though, it also demonstrates that those writing this article should be the last people editing this article as it reflects the "reality" of Wikipedia. I lament the Wikipedia's golden years (circa 2003-2006) where policies were mere guidelines and people did the job for the love of it. And the phrase "be bold" didn't mean start an edit conflict with a pedantic rules lawyer.

My reality? This site now lives up to the final few pages in Animal Farm when the law "All animals are equal" has eventually became "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." Other's will obviously have an entirely different reality of why they spend so much time doing so much work for free. Reality is our psychological make up but it is not because "that's what I say it is".

The statement "Reality is the state of things as they actually exist, rather than as they may appear or may be thought to be" is therefore wrong. Reality is whatever the spectrum of human thought can muster. Using Wikipedia as the example.

The top people i.e. senior editors think Wikipedia is wonderful, and dismiss all criticisms. Other people, me for example, think Wikipedia has become nothing short of a totalitarian state where laws have replaced free will, imagination and genuine love for making interesting, readable articles.

Using this analogy how can reality therefore be "the state of things as they actually exist" as clearly there is a dichotomy between the two statements above! One statement therefore denies that my reality exists. This article is therefore the reality/interpretation of the question by people using their own judgements/realities. It is a circular problem that is not answered here! 86.130.59.149 (talk) 23:01, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

How would you improve the article? This is too much generalization. You want something deleted, re-written, added? If all that post-modernist stuff is what you believe, fine, but it's not helping improve the article. Chrisrus (talk) 15:33, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Truth[edit]

When I was about 30, I found that if I asked people "What is Truth?" I got back a lot of confused drivel like that in the same named § in this article. Truth is a concept. It is the concept exemplified in the situation where I tell you that there is a dime in my closed fist and there is in fact a dime there. It is the abstraction from all such correspondences of representation with reality, thus truth and reality are essentially the same concept (except where reality is taken as including not just its intention but also its extension, "the real world"). Tarski and others have given this various rigorous formulations, and a very extensive literature in mathematics (probability theory, fuzzy sets and systems, model theory, etc.) and science deal with the degree of truth and techniques for finding it out, but any rational human being can be expected to at least know what kind of thing Truth is. When the fist is open, the truth, the reality is revealed. Without a grounding in this concept and a general ability to use concepts, man is simply an animal with a (largely wasted) language faculty (since the proper use of said facility involves being able to use concepts in an educated and critical manner). 72.228.177.92 (talk) 12:25, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Why is Quantum Mechanics Included?[edit]

While quantum mechanics is interesting it seem like it is off topic as to what reality is. I would recommend removing it and perhaps replacing it with a discussion of the scientific method and ways in which we determine what reality is. How we determine what it real and what isn't real. What is a scientific theory? What is proof? Keep the focus on reality. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Marcperkel (talkcontribs) 14:33, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

it is inappropriate for different reasons: quantum mechanics does not say definitively there is no determinism. see Determinism#Quantum_mechanics_and_classical_physics. There may be reasons to be in favor of non-determinism, but the reasons given certainly aren't them. IRWolfie- (talk) 23:34, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
On second thoughts I removed the section on determinism, the explanation given was incorrect, and a much better article exists on it. Quantum mechanics is relevant to this article. IRWolfie- (talk) 23:48, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Why is the page being vandalised ?[edit]

Surely the vandalism that's evident here is contrary to the spirit in which Wikipedia normally operates and was intended to operate. Can someone please fix this and lock the page down until those involved can grow up and or go away? I want to read what is written about reality - not one persons dull single opinion that reality is metaphorically a commodity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.120.103.18 (talk) 10:56, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Thankyou - quick fix - is it locked down now?

The perception of reality is a commodity, ask anybody in PR or any political spin doctor. Oh and Colbert is anything but dull — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.93.149.128 (talk) 17:53, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Possible source of the vandalism: Stephen Colbert, on his comedy show The Colbert Report, when discussing the term Wikilobbying, offered $5 bucks to the first person who would change the entry on Reality to 'reality is a commodity'. Reference: Youtube Video - Colbert Vs. Wikipedia — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.226.11.248 (talk) 19:14, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Edit request from Reyobem, 3 March 2011[edit]

{{edit semi-protected}} Please change "being" in the first paragraph to "been" because "being" is grammatically incorrect. It can, however, still link to "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Being". Thank you.

Reyobem (talk) 02:36, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Done Thank you for your contributions to Wikipedia! Reaper Eternal (talk) 16:49, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

REFERENCES ON REALITY[edit]

The entry is well-written by too consise for such a fundamental topic. It is necessary to add references like as: Reality, Universal Ontology and Knowledge Systems: [1] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.228.42.75 (talk) 18:28, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Sources[edit]

While the article content is not controversial, editors should help with providing inline references. PPdd (talk) 15:54, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Kuhn[edit]

The edit on Kuhn is not very clear. While it is natural to think about the nature of reality when reading Structures, it is not certain without citing page numbers from the book that he ever overtly discussed reality, and I read it so long ago I don't remember. If there is not overt discussion, the edit is highly synth, but I have no objection to it on this ground, and would object to removing the mention of Kuhn WP:Common sense grounds. A more clear exposition as to how a paradigm shift is related to a "reality shift" would be helpful, if there are any Kuhn scholars reading this. PPdd (talk) 16:00, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Lead first and second sentence; time and space section[edit]

The lead first and second sentence violate MOS consitency. The reason is that the Oxford definition, one of many related to time, is inconsistent with other meanings. Each should be encyclopedically expanded. I created a time and space section with other uses typically found in common or technical meanings. I can source them all with various dictionary defs, but better sources would be desireable. Does anyone have any RS at hand for the the various different, but related, meanings? PPdd (talk) 16:04, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Careful here. Wikipedia is not a usage guide.Rememberway (talk) 16:36, 9 April 2011 (UTC)
Thanks. I meant soemthing bigger than "meaning". I modified this above. PPdd (talk) 17:09, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Proposal re WP:Synth, Lead, topics, and article evolution[edit]

This article topic is so broad, and has been written about so much, it is suggested that editors put in any reasonable thoughts (to get thoughts, break out your undergrad philosophy books, look in the index for "reality", and add content from the relevant textbook sections), then later add RS, then pare down the article later still. It is also suggested that topic sections be started, but leave the lead alone until the article has evolved to a better sourced and organized state, whence the lead can be written consistent with the article body. Ideas for topic sections can be brought up on the talk page. PPdd (talk) 17:13, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Buddhist and Hindu conceptions[edit]

There is much about reality in Buddhism and Hinduism. Are there any non-analytic philospopher/editors around to help write a section on this? PPdd (talk) 16:12, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Nothingness[edit]

Section on relation to nothingness is needed. PPdd (talk) 16:24, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

More reification content is needed[edit]

More reification content is needed. PPdd (talk)

Realism section is needed[edit]

A realism section is needed. PPdd (talk) 17:10, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Native American conceptions[edit]

a Native American conceptions of reality section is needed. PPdd (talk) 17:18, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Dreamtime section needed[edit]

A Dreamtime section is needed. PPdd (talk) 17:21, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Fresh start needed[edit]

Since the article is now unprotected, and since it is hardly worthy of being called "start class" I intend to boldly revise the whole thing. First, archive most of this page. 1Z (talk) 16:46, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

See also section[edit]

The links in the see also section seem excessive to me. TimBentley (talk) 21:50, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Krakajakmak, 1 August 2011[edit]

Reality has become commodity.

Krakajakmak (talk) 07:15, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Not done: please be more specific about what needs to be changed. Jnorton7558 (talk) 07:50, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Ken Wilbers AQAL theory[edit]

I do not understand why Ken Wilber's work on reality is not cited in this article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.240.210.53 (talk) 16:18, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Wilber is one author among thousands. Unless this article were to cover all authors who have written on reality, covering Wilber's theory would violate WP:UNDUE. — goethean 16:34, 3 August 2011 (UTC)
There is a great deal missing from the article, and a certain amount that should not be there. A section on New Age perspectives might be appropriate. 188.29.5.171 (talk) 04:06, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Fresh start needed[edit]

Since the article is now unprotected, and since it is hardly worthy of being called "start class" I intend to boldly revise the whole thing. First, archive most of this page. 1Z (talk) 16:46, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

Some material has been deleted because it was of poor quality.

The subsection on axioms was unreferenced, and not in line with the main page axiom. This material should not feature in the article unless it rewritten to be verifiably relevant to reality.

I also couldn't find any references to support the existence of such a concept as "phenomenological reality". If this section cannot be referenced, it should be deleted as WP:OR.

16:27, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

Typo[edit]

Within the time and space section, this typo appears: "betranscedentally ideal" should be "be transcendentally ideal" 74.132.249.206 (talk) 14:59, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

I searched for it, i think its fixed.Beefcake6412 (talk) 23:06, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Truth vs. Fact §[edit]

Agree with the tagging, considered deleting the entire section. The quote attributed to Dick for example, I don't believe is original to him and if it were it would be inappropriate. "Truth", "Fact", and "Reality" are words corresponding to similar but distinct English concepts and this section is erroneous from the jump in opposing "Truth vs. Fact" a simple minded perspective which then plays itself out in the text of the § Suggest it be pulled to this talk space to be reworked or just deleted. 72.228.177.92 (talk) 12:28, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Also I redacted the lede per the tagging. 72.228.177.92 (talk) 19:29, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from , 20 November 2011[edit]

Reality is a commodity. -Robert Colbert

Adjacient (talk) 22:12, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Not done: please be more specific about what needs to be changed. →Στc. 00:27, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
They want to put the phrase "Reality has become a commodity" in the article. This should explain it. --ProfessorKilroy (talk) 12:24, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Edit request on 10 December 2011[edit]


66.31.167.139 (talk) 01:25, 10 December 2011 (UTC) Reality has become a commodity

Not a request--Jac16888 Talk 01:29, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

Edit request on 17 December 2011[edit]

Reality Has become A Commodity

76.222.124.38 (talk) 02:41, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

X mark.svg Not done--Jac16888 Talk 02:53, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

Levels of reality[edit]

In the Frege-Church ontology, there is an object, the name of the object, and the concept of the object. Using the Oxford definition in the lede, the object would be in reality and the concept would not (assuming a concept has existence in the mind or in some Platonic space). The concept itself has a concept, and is thus more real than the concept of the concept. And so on. Do any editors know a good reference regarding this notion of "levels of reality" or others? Similarly for "planes of reality". PPdd (talk) 02:31, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

(Subjectivity and mysticism) Walmarks OR Amputation[edit]

I believe the upshot of the editor's comment below in starting this section is to find reliable sources for, and then include, information on the possible subjectivity of reality based on arguments about subjectivity of truth. Also to include material re mysticism with sources. PPdd (talk) 18:14, 24 December 2011 (UTC) When I was about thirty, a fundamental realization of how complete the failure of education is was made clear when I found that the average person could not process the question "What is truth?". Like a recent survey that posed a moral/ethical dilemma to a mass American sample, the ignorant respondents can't even understand the question, it's beyond their education/understanding to reply something simple and straightforward such as "truth is a concept, the concept of information corresponding to reality" or some such. The section which long stood, and reflects such an intellectual level essentially placed this level of thinking at the top of this article where the complaints above mounted but nothing was done until the action I just took. It will be easy for a person with a modicum of education in philosophy, mathematics, etc. to put something there reflecting the minimum standards of education which need to be enforced in wiki for an article like this. Works of Tarski, Frege, Quine, etc. are especially relevant, but a statement that truth is what ever anybody happens to think it is, that there's no common clearly expressible core meaning as expressed in learned human culture, that truth is on a par with mysticism and evocative impressions of sunrises on VA beach, wasn't going to stand and I'm happy to be the one to do the honors. Lycurgus (talk) 13:25, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

What "recent survey" are you referring to? PPdd (talk) 18:09, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
To include "a statement that... truth is... what ever anybody happens to think it is", which I interpret to mean a statement on subjectivity of truth, and thus of what is called reality. All that is needed to include such as statement in the article is to find it in a reliable and verifiable source. Do a google scholar search and you will likely find many such sources on the subjectivigy of truth in the philosphy of logic literature, or in literature on objectivity in general. There is likely also material on this in in the perception literature in psychology. PPdd (talk) 18:09, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
I heard it on NPR (the survey where the respondents couldn't capice a "moral dilemma") within last 90 days. No the above is not about subjectivity vs. its other. It's about the former "Truth vs. Fact" § Also, it's more the case I think that it just slid into its final state, dying a death of 1000 cuts until I put it out of its misery and as the article moved to a mature state, rather than a result of concerted personal effort as my rant would seem to indicate. A typical kind of progression for an article. That Reality is or isn't objectively perceived, that Subjectivity doesn't get treatment worthy the erudition of say, J. P. Sartre, isn't what I'm referring to and think I was fairly clear. It's not an admonition for/against future action, the article is naturally moving to reflect supporting cultural norms and doesn't need that from me. It's an explanation of action taken. 72.228.177.92 (talk) 11:07, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Edit Request[edit]

I was reading this article and noticed a point on style that needed some attention; in the introduction material, the author does make use of a certain negative phrase to refer to fiction when the author connotes that "Fictions are not considered real" when a more appropriate positive expression is available for changing the tone of the article which includes the mode "Fictions are considered not real". I hope this alteration is considered in the same spirit with which I bring to reading this article, and is so considered carefully and thoughtfully with others' best interest in mind. Thank you.

Done Thanks, Celestra (talk) 03:57, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

"Reality is a construction":[edit]

this oft-cited phrase from [is from Sigfried] Kracauer's study Die Angestellten

Kracauer, Sigfried. "Translator's Note," The Mass Ornament. Harvard University Press: Cambridge:1995 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.138.220.97 (talk) 05:21, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Distinction between what now?[edit]

The lead section says (and has said for over a year) that various people "have made a distinction between thought corresponding to reality, coherent abstractions, and that which cannot even be rationally thought." Is that supposed to be three separate things or just two (I assume the latter), with the phrase "coherent abstractions" modifying the phrase "thought corresponding to reality"? I guess I don't understand what "coherent abstractions" is supposed to mean (and/or why it's necessary) in that sentence. Can someone clarify? (Just leave aside the whole "[thought] which cannot even be rationally thought" thing...) - dcljr (talk) 20:27, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

A coherent abstraction would be something like "gold mountain" whereas an incoherent one would be something like "square triangle". 1Z (talk) 17:08, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
So.... does that mean it's 3 separate things, or just 2? I still can't tell. (And BTW, I meant clarify this in the lead itself, not just here on the talk page. [g] I have now marked the text with {{clarify span}} to encourage someone to change it.) - dcljr (talk) 20:52, 20 November 2012 (UTC)
I think it's three things: thoughts of real things (like New York City), thoughts of things that are plausible (or at least imaginable) but false (like flying pigs), and that which can not be imagined or thought (like the fourth dimension, maybe?). I'm no philosopher, and small wording changes can be important in topics like this, so I hesitate to change anything, but I think I at least understand what is meant here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Etothei (talkcontribs) 14:54, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
In any case the current final sentence of the 1st ¶ is entirely redundant with the previous sentence. Looks stupid, claims diff wo distinction. Not doing anything about though, enough of the lede is my composition already. 76.180.168.166 (talk)

Suggest link to quantum decoherence[edit]

The section "Role of the observer in quantum mechanics" covers several early viewpoints, but neglects a lot of work from the past 30 years, in particular quantum decoherence and the understanding that apparent wave-function collapse is a consequence of systems ceasing to be closed. The quantum decoherence article already covers these ideas in depth; it would be useful to link there. Concretely, I suggest, at the end of the section, paraphrasing a sentence from that article's lead paragraph:

In more recent work, quantum decoherence is understood to give the appearance of wave function collapse.

75.88.78.174 (talk) 18:23, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 October 2014[edit]

reality has become a commodity 99.242.67.164 (talk) 04:16, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Cannolis (talk) 04:20, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 November 2014[edit]

According to Stephen Colbert, "reality has become a commodity". Lego423 (talk) 02:03, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. — {{U|Technical 13}} (etc) 02:13, 24 November 2014 (UTC)