Talk:Red hair

"Ginger hair"?

I live in Britain and never have I heard a reference to "red hair" nor "redheads" - rather the word "ginger" is used almost exclusively. I think that it is widely-used enough to have some reference to it in the opening paragraph.SaintDaveUK (talk) 00:20, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

Your personal, and limited, experience isn't enough. Do you have any cites to back up your claim of exclusive use of ginger? Certainly I find it incredible that you have never heard of red hair. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 11:59, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

SaintDaveUK - [ This article] in the Daily Mail mentions Cilla Black's red hair. (7th paragraph) Does that help? HiLo48 (talk) 23:16, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

In these following articles, ginger hair is used on its own as a synonym for red hair with not a single mention of the latter; Telegraph Daily Mirror Glamour Magazine Metro. A simple google search of "ginger hair" -red highlights this. I'm going to add a reference to "ginger" in the opening paragraph. SaintDaveUK (talk) 17:24, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

I believe the main reason other terms for redhead aren't used in the opening paragraph of the article, is so that they weren't listing all of these alternative names straight away. If "ginger" is added to the opening paragraph, then you should consider also, the Australian slang terms, "ranga", and "blue" or "bluey". Here is a discussion that was reached to include "ranga" in the opening paragraph, but it was decided to remove all other slang terms for red hair from the introduction. --ProfessorKilroy (talk) 23:28, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

The word "ginger" and derivatives of the word are used 17 times in this article alone. It is used exclusively in many articles across the Internet as I proposed in the initial post. This is not mere slang in the same vein as the Australian "bluey", it is a part of British English, and is far more widely used than "red head". I believe there is every reason to include it in the opening paragraph, if not the very first sentence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SaintDaveUK (talk • contribs) 03:05, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Do you have an independent source for that, rather than just your personal observations? HiLo48 (talk) 03:13, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

I provided references and further explanation earlier on in this thread in a previous post. Feel free to read it. SaintDaveUK (talk) 15:32, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

japanese have no red hair

its impossible, the reference was no data or link just some book from 1967 where some one writes something what heard maybe, seriously what kindergarten wiki is kids want to add anything--Kloos952 (talk) 08:41, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Seriously... You claim it has no citation, but point out it for a fact had a citation. You think 1960's published hearsay is too old and unproven to count, yet the very study you are just pretending to be practiced in typically relies upon unproven, published hearsay... From ancient Rome. It's no wonder it's rich in misinformation and lacking in facts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.98.8.202 (talk) 08:16, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

And, yes, Japan has hair color diversity ranging from red to black, they do not actually all have black hair naturally. They also don't all have straight hair naturally. The "permanent" hair straightening many curly-hair Americans love so much... It came from Japan, and was used on Japanese people, not their foriegn minority. Look up on geishas. You'll find it stated that geishas often had to dye their hair black and straighten it... Because their purely Japanese DNAed hair wasn't naturally black, or straight. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.98.8.202 (talk) 08:39, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 1 February 2012

Please remove references to "also know as Ginger hair" . Remove the comment "("ginger" is not often considered insulting). It is very insensitive and a racial slur. Thank you. Larry78cj7 (talk) 03:58, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. --Bryce (talk | contribs) 05:17, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Regarding the issue of whether the term "ginger" is insulting in the UK... It would seem to me that a citation should be required to support this statement in order to retain it in the article. Does it make sense to require a source to remove an unsupported subjective statement like this? Adding citation tag, will leave it for others to decide whether it should be retained or not. --Dfred (talk) 06:45, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

No problem. A claim either way should be cited. HiLo48 (talk) 06:53, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Sexual selection

Does the article in question (Rees JL (November 2004). "The genetics of sun sensitivity in humans". Am. J. Hum. Genet. 75 (5): 739–51) really say anything about sexual selection? I admin I haven't read it thoroughly several times, as I'd need to do to be certain. The word "sexual" does not exist in the article, though. Searcing for "select" in the article text gives me this. "Several systematic or case-based studies of MC1R diversity have been published. In African populations, low genetic diversity at MC1R suggests it is under functional constraint, whereas diversity is increased in European populations and, to a lesser degree, in Asian populations (Rana et al. 1999; Harding et al. 2000; Makova et al. 2001). Two interpretations of these findings have been considered. One is that there is selection for functionally significant variants in non-African populations (Rana et al. 1999; Makova et al. 2001)." Possibly the "sexual selectio" stuff is in the Rana or the Makova article. The citation still looks weird. --Siden (talk) 21:52, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Even the guy who put the ref there couldn't find it in the source! [1]! Removed. --Siden (talk) 17:46, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

The Prophet Muhammad

Citation #85 for the sentence "Red is the preferred dyeing color in Islam. It is said that Muhammad used to dye his hair red." links to an article which says

"Abu Bakr, the father of Aisha, and thus, the father-in-law of Muhammad, was the first Caliph of Islam (AD 632-634). He was slenderly built, and white-skinned; also, he dyed his grey beard red, in an attempt to gain a more youthful appearance. [Günther (1930) 163.]"

http://www.articlesafari.com/2010/10/red-hair-arabs/

It says nothing about Muhammad himself dyeing his hair red. This sentence should be modified.--SlapChopVincent (talk) 17:30, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Noted. I've changed it. What the cite says is that some Muslims dye their hair red, because it is reported (so some element of doubt) that Muhammad had red hair. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 17:40, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Ginger IS offensive

I find the term ginger offensive especially here in the UK as it has very rarely been used without a sniggering undertone or as anything other than a pre cursor to another insult.

Please cite your claim. Your personal experience is not universal. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 21:10, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

In such a subject, no citation is possible/needed. Ginger (referring to a redhead) does not show up in the dictionary due to being an informal, slang word. Due to not having an exact definition, there is no "universally" accepted term for ginger. Some will find it offensive (such as the person above, and most redheads you will meet), but some will consider it a standard term. As to being offensive or not, due to being an informal word, it is entirely in the air as to if it is offensive or not. It cannot be proven nor disproven. In such an instance it is best to take a "neutral" stance on it. Do not purposefully place it to offend people, nor use it like a standard word (Once again, it does not have an exact definition in the standard English dictionary. Ginger is considered "informal".) But this also does not mean that "ginger" cannot be explained. If you, Escape_Orbit, or anyone else feels like writing a paragraph on the word "Ginger" and its informal, ambitiousness be my guest. Jcmcc450 (talk) 10:04, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure why you think it's "impossible" to supply a citation for slang (Wikipedia has many articles about slang terms), or that slang terms do not "show up" in dictionaries. I don't know what your "standard English dictionary" is, but Collins defines "ginger" as "a reddish-brown or yellowish-brown colour", and mentions the word's use as informal term for "a person with ginger hair".

There may be some cross-purpose confusion here between describing someone as having "ginger hair" (which I'd say was a neutral description, and not even slang) and describing the person as "a ginger" (which is slang, and definitely offensive). I'd back up earlier observations that "ginger hair" is very commonly used as a simple descriptor in the UK, probably moreso than "red hair", with no slang or pejorative connotations to it. --McGeddon (talk) 11:09, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

After a bit of digging around, I found this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Red_hair/Archive_4#Red_hair_in_Australian_slang.

It seems this has already been discussed and debated ending with it being decided not to use slang terms in the opening sentance.76.166.246.73 (talk) 11:16, 6 March 2012 (UTC)76.166.246.73

It was argued that, being slang, "bluey" does not have "semantic equivalence" and shouldn't be presented as such. The term "ginger hair" appears to be a formal synonym rather than slang, in the United Kingdom - a Google News search for the term turns up plenty of results from UK broadsheets, the BBC and police descriptions. --McGeddon (talk) 12:58, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

I agree with McGeddon. "Ginger" is far beyond mere slang. It is not the same vein as "bluey". It is a word which is used formally in the UK all the time. Rememeber, Wikipedia is not censored, we aren't here to cater for people whose feelings are hurt by the description. I think it should be re-included into the opening sentence. SaintDaveUK (talk) 03:10, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Source? HiLo48 (talk) 03:14, 10 March 2012 (UTC)