Talk:Religion in Germany

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The article should explain that the opinion of the mainstream churchs about cults and new religious movements is influential in Germany. Otherwise it sounds like just an opinion of one religous group about another religious group which should be removed because irrelevant here. Andries (talk) 06:11, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

To quote from an article: "Those who are concerned about the limitations of religious freedom in Germany should, therefore, consider not only the structure of the legal and political system; it is also necessary to pay attention to the cultural dimensions of society, and to the attitudes and moods that affect social action and the working of the institutions." (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0SOR/is_3_64/ai_109568884/pg_4/?tag=mantle_skin;content). The mainstream churches' opinions are politically influential for the religious history of the country. To really explain this one may start with the Thirty Years' War. Or learn about the rights of the mainline churches as statutory organizations, e. g. to give religious education at state schools. Just one example, German kids have to prepare presentations about Sekten for religion or ethics class and attending these classes is mandatory. --Rafflesiapricei (talk) 19:20, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons[edit]

I don't know how religious science views them, but public opinion and mainline churches classify those groups as Sekten rather than as Christians in Germany. For example [Netzwerk Sektenausstieg e.V. - Dokumentation und Forum über Zeugen Jehovas, Mormonen und andere Sekten] --Rafflesiapricei (talk) 13:18, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Hmm... that particular page doesn't mention Mormons and JWs at all, but this page from the same group categorizes the organizations they cover into "Zeugen Jehovas", "Mormonen", "Sekten", and "Neuapostolische Kirche", suggesting they do not consider JW, Mormons, and NAC to be Sekten strictu sensu. Angr (talk) 18:33, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
The page lists "Zeugen Jehovas", "Mormonen" and "Neuapostolische Kirche", as specific examples of Sekten and does most of its work providing critical information especially about these groups . If you have a page on apples, pears and fruit, it doesn't say that apples and pears are not fruit.
The "theological" definition of Sekte [1] "A religious body, especially one that has separated from a larger denomination" seems to correspond to sect. The "common" definition referring to "groups or organizations using subtle methods of mind control to make people dependent of them" seems to correspond to cult. Sekte means both. "Zeugen Jehovas", "Mormonen" and "Neuapostolische Kirche" are Sekten in the theological definition and are publicly agreed to be Sekten in the common definition too. Listing only Hare Krishnas and Ananda Marga as examples of Sekten implies that groups that refer to themselves as Christian cannot be labelled as Sekte. Especially with Jehovah's Witnesses this is not the case.--Rafflesiapricei (talk) 12:46, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
There are cultural differences in addition to linguistic ones. In the United States (and maybe other English-speaking countries as well), I don't think most people would seriously consider the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Mormons cults (as opposed to, say, the Branch Davidians and the Peoples Temple, both of which are nominally Christian but definitely considered cults), but in Germany the JWs and the Mormons are not as well known and not as widespread and may therefore be regarded with more skepticism than in the U.S. (If you consider Mormons Christians, then the LDS Church is the 4th largest Christian denomination in the U.S.; if you don't consider them Christians, then they're the largest non-Christian religion in the U.S., there being more Mormons than Jews there.) The Scientologists are also widely considered a cult in Germany (and they don't fit the "separated from a larger denomination" part of the theological definition of Sekte), while views on them vary more greatly in the U.S. So from the point of view of the English speakers likely to be reading this article, it may be jarring to see JWs and Mormons called cults, even if that seems quite natural to Germans. (And yes, if someone listed "Apples, pears, and fruit" on a page, I would think they were suggesting that apples and pears aren't fruit. They should say "Apples, pears, and other fruit".) Angr (talk) 18:11, 26 October 2011 (UTC)
The term "Sekte" (with a massive negative connotation) has been uses for virtually every group not having more than a billion members worldwide – sometimes even for Buddhists or orthodox Christs. Social expectation in the 1990s was not to care about religion, while practicing catholics or protestants were seen as "people stuck in the past"; practicing another religion was just something strange. Over the last about 10 years, these things have changed a lot – there's no more talk about "Sekten" and about every religious belief is accepted, as long as the members only make rules for them self. With one exception: Scientology is still seen as "the evil itself", but is also far often a topic in media. --TheK (talk) 06:38, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Map of Christian denominations 2008[edit]

I don't think this map is very accurate because the lines between catholicism and protestantism don't follow the borders of modern German states. For example, the state of Baden-Württemberg is roughly half predominantly catholic and half predominantly EKD protestant. I think this one is more accurate:http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Europe_religion_map_en.png -- 77.184.40.192 (talk) 10:56, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

The 1895 map further down the page does a better job of showing exactly where Catholicism and Protestantism are most prevalent. I think it's still pretty accurate within the boundaries of modern Germany, but it doesn't reflect the numbers of irreligious people. Angr (talk) 12:44, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
There is now a new map with data from 2011 which also shows the non-religious areas: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Konfessionen_Deutschland_Zensus_2011.png 217.186.193.89 (talk) 22:32, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Religious Statistics[edit]

There were several estimates used on this page to detail the religious denominations in Germany, many of the sources contradicted eachother. I have updated the figures with data from the 2011 census. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sdg198 (talkcontribs) 09:56, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia does not give piriority to a single source and using estimates from different sources makes article more informative. This is the uniqueness of wikipedia. I have informed User:Iryna Harpy and she will take the notice.Septate (talk) 15:05, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
I support the edits made by Sdg198. The official 2011 census appears to be more reliable than IPSOS MORI or REMID. JimRenge (talk) 18:51, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
The problem is that previously the various citations used in the same paragraph were contradictory. One source says 4 million Muslims for example, the next one says 4.3, the next one says less than 2.1 million. I also think that estimates from statistical agencies are less accurate than the official census. Sdg198 (talk) 19:19, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
@Septate: It is entirely dependent on context. Each article and appropriate sources should be treated according to factors impacting on the quality and veracity of the article. In this instance, are you disputing the German census as a reliable source? If so, why? 2011 is relatively recent, so I would prefer to rely on it as being the tertiary text. Unlike articles such as Religion in Russia (where it has been argued realistically that the census had omitted ethnic groups and regions) or Religion in Ukraine (where there has been no census since 2001 and the 2008 census keeps getting bumped up and is currently predicted to be set for 2016), I don't see a legitimate reason for supplementing or, in this case, replacing a valid, reliable recent source which gleaned its statistical information from all inhabitants of the country rather than sample group data or any methodologies which have come up with such disparate figures. How would you propose to handle the percentages for other religious groups or the irreligious? If the total number is above or below accounting for 100% of the population, how would you adjust the figures? --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:45, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Different methodologies (such as the exact phrasing of the question) are inherently going to give different answers, so some diversity among polls and census is expected. Also there is a tendency in a census for religious affiliation to generally be overestimated by the head of the household, Second Quantization (talk) 20:52, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
Agreed, Second Quantization. Statistical analysis is subject to being problematic but, as census statistics appear to be preferred for articles in Wikipedia for demographic information, at least there is assurance of some form of consistency in slightly bolstered estimates per nation-state. I've noticed that independent polls don't qualify 'random' selection groups (were those selected gleaned from a lunch time cross section in a working class area; rural or urban groups; the shopping centre in middle to upper income areas during working hours), or examples of the questionnaires (leading; confusing; presumptuous). Unless there are identifiable oversights in the census questionnaire itself, or regions being overlooked, I'd deem it WP:UNDUE to introduce additional sources unless it's attributed WP:INTEXT and serves a necessary function such as pointing out extremely large variations in estimates. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 01:08, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Church tax figures[edit]

Are there any sources for the church tax figures? This would surely provide a good estimate of adherence within some church groups, and wouldnt supplement other census figures Second Quantization (talk) 20:54, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Every state has it's own "Kirchensteuergesetz". In most law's every Körperschaft des öffentlichen Rechts can collect the church tax, but not every church collect them (e.g. freechurches) --Nandus (talk) 11:26, 17 December 2014 (UTC)