Talk:Reorganized National Government of China
|This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:|
- 1 Copyvio?
- 2 Improvement suggestions & strategy
- 3 Article title
- 4 Cierta Respuesta a Article title
- 5 Introduction cleanup
- 6 Theories about Wang Chingwei's collaborations with the Japanese
- 7 Merge
- 8 Chinese armies with Japanese commanders?
- 9 Move
- 10 Name change proposal
- 11 Official country name romanization
These massive edits smell like copyvio, but I haven't found it. Anyone else have an idea? Wikibofh 05:16, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
- if certain,I non native english speaker,but i desire to send
information for your knowledge.i agreed with your negative and positive comments and recomendations.
reiterrally i see very little information of nanjing state,and the info why poses proceded no of web site,without of old photocopy of lamentably lost book in library.i making these copy(why no stay in english too) and obtain these information for yours.
- Thanks a bunch for adding the information. We appreciate it. :) Wikibofh 19:58, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
- Not direct copying, I'd say. Charles Matthews 11:21, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
- I'd agree with you. It looks like something like a babelfish from a native language to english to me. Wikibofh 15:03, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
- No, not that. I don't know why everyone keeps suggesting that - it is quite an ignorant thing to say. The contributor is a Spanish speaker, doing his best. Charles Matthews 15:09, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
- Ok, so it's a non-native enlish speaker. I'm fine with that, and am not suggesting that it's bad. I just couldn't make heads or tales of it, and when you see an anon making massive entries into a subject, about 80% of the time it's a copyvio. I asked, you answered, no worries. Additionally, you've cleaned it up some, which is great. Thanks. Wikibofh 15:12, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
- The bigger picture is at User:Charles Matthews/Imperial Japan. Charles Matthews 15:59, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
- Ah...got it...thanks for the pointer...clearly looks like something you've dealt with before...at least I didn't send it to VfD :) Wikibofh 16:12, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
Sorry to say it, but the original author is *NOT* doing his best. If he was doing his best, he would contribute to Spanish wikipedia. Also, he would read neutral books on Japanese history and not extreme-right webpages. -- Mkill 01:21, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
Improvement suggestions & strategy
I cleaned up the introduction to more clearly summarize the article. Some significant copyediting should improve the readibility significantly. I'd like feedback on some suggestions:
- Accuracy/Relevance. Population and farming statistics are questionable. It is unlikely these types of records were kept during the conflict and no source is quoted. In any case, they are not directly pertinent to the establishment and demise of the puppet state. I recommend removing these sections. Any objections?
- Focus. Is it about the puppet state or is it about the region? Regional statistics and general history belong better in a general article about the region rather than this more narrow feature of its historical record. I recommend narrowing down the information onto facts directly relevant to the puppet state. Does anybody object to such a restructuring of the article?
- Fact checking. Though I feel I can clean up a lot of the text, I am not familiar enough with this topic to do a proper fact check. There's little on the web.
Tobycat 00:20, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
Please leave the stats for the moment. I'm sure they are not just made up, and in the end we can find the source (there is a large bibliography posted on another page). The material may need moving around to get the article to cohere. I'm reluctant just to cut things out. You could move some sections temporarily to this page. Charles Matthews 10:59, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
- OK, thanks for the feedback. We'll leave the stats for now and perhaps I'll focus on cleanup of the other sections first. I don't think they are made up...just perhaps from a different point in time. I'd be very surprised if the population of the region was even stable during that period given the troop movements, dislocation, and massacres. This is why I'm skeptical of them and suspect they've come from a source not specific to that time period. Obviously this needs some futher investigation.Tobycat 01:30, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
respect at stability of resident numbers,farmings,mining,and other cyphers mentioned,is very clear why are proceded from previous statistics population,farmings and other cypher research,previous at conflict,in your majority. other numbers proceded from sources how Far East Year Book(1941),Chinese Interior Affairs minister,American and foreing researches before and during wartimes and other sources.
ow you sayed if totally correct why these cypher are more stably for sitaution in China during war,but for less giving one approximate(no totally exact,still the stastistic debt exact and reality in your dates,) about population. if no count other factors how massive diseases,food scarcies,inundations,etc why can to reduced the numbers of population and farmings possiblities in areas.
reiterrally if approximate,one idea about how stay population in area. in wartimes if difficult obtain real dates of population for the situation in area.
for exact details if one point for cominzed one profoundly investigation at respect.
- Hi guys, I'm not sure the stats are relevant or even useful being on this page, because they're so specialist and obscure.
- On a more important point, the description of battles ("incidents") are POV. Has anyone noticed it? It's always "The Chinese attacked the Japanese..." "The Americans incited the Japanese..." and therefore "the Imperial Army" (<-- POV in itself) had to defend itself by occupying half of China.
- I suggest we take the battles down because they're covered elsewhere under battles of World War II or battles of the Sino-Japanese war. --Sumple (Talk) 22:23, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
I've brought this up before, and I hate to do it again, but I can't find a single reference to the Wang Jingwei government as "Cochinchina" anywhere on the web or in print, except as a copy of a Wikipedia page. The Japanese and Chinese articles both call it the "Wang Jingwei regime". I find lots of hits on the web for "Wang Jingwei regime", "Nanjing regime" and related structures.
I'd really like to see a bibliographic reference to the use of this name. It certainly isn't the most common name in English, Chinese or Japanese for the occupation regime. I think this article should be moved to "Wang Jingwei government" to fit what seems to be the most common maniker for it. If there really are people who call it Cochinchina, the article should say so. But, giving the article an obscure title that is neither what it called itself, nor what other people called or currently call it, just doesn't make sense.
--Diderot 2 July 2005 12:22 (UTC)
- Should this article be called Nanjing National Government (1937-1945)? --Hello World! 03:19, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Cochinchina is a part of southern Vietnam. The Cochinchina State redirect is confusing. I too have never heard of Cochinchina used to describe this government. "Cochin" doesnt sound like any Chinese word nor does it sound like a transliteration of Chinese.--Countakeshi 13:12, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
- Cochinchina is 交趾支那 in Chinese, but I also never heard of Cochchina used to describe places in China. It is definitely a place in southern Vietnam. --Hello World! 03:19, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Cierta Respuesta a Article title
Ah,como dije en una ocasion,en las discusiones hay de todo,a veces es bueno,otras veces no. yo podria escribir en ingles,pero he preferido hacerlo en mi idioma nativo,y el de mi conocido que ya se fue,el Español:
lamentablemente,no soy el autor de este articulo soy unicamente un amigo y humilde ayudante que colaboro prestando la PC para escribir y enviar la informacion relacionada.el autor como no esta presente,entonces yo tomare la palabra en su defensa.
Miren,sobre la verdaderamente dudosa cuestion del nombre del"estado" que administro el lider chino- projapones de Wang Chingwei,llamado "Cochinchina" dire algunas cosas,que ojala mi amigo hubiera podido haber dicho,en mas detalle:
este nombre, conozco perfectamente que es muy similar a una region del sur de indochina,y yo antes pensaba que Japon habia organizado algun "estado" con ese nombre en esa region.pues resulta al parecer que bajo esta denominacion en varias fuentes de informacion(Libros,enciclopedias) se referian al estado creado por los Japoneses en Nanking y areas cercanas,o sea la efimera "nacion" dirigida por Wang Chingwei.por ejemplo en un libro de aviacion "Combat Aircraft of World War Two" (Arm & Armour Press,London) se menciona que en el apartado de Japon que este pais durante la guerra,proporciono aviones a las Fuerzas aereas aliadas de Manchukuo,Thailandia(Siam) y Cochinchina ,no precisamente el sector de Indochina,se referian al una Arma Aerea titere organizada por Japon en el estado de Wang Chingwei,en otro libro sobre Japon,en un articulo llamado "East Asia and Second World War"(P.93-103)" en la seccion "Social and Economical Transformations"(P.94-96) se menciona que Japon compraba a muy bajo costo el arroz de Siam,Birmania y Cochinchina,o sea que el estado de nuestro estimado amigo Wang Chingwei aparece de nuevo,pero en los aspectos economicos de Japon.
Otro recuerdo que tengo y posee relacion con este asunto,es que mis abuelos me relataron que durante las decadas de los 30s y 40s ,tenian amistad con una familia de pescadores Japoneses.entre las cosas que mis abuelos decian es que lo mas lejos estaba en la "Cochinchina" y cuando pregunte me dijeron: "los amigos japoneses ,les comentaron que Japon tenia una nacion amiga llamada asi". por tanto esto es otra mencion adicional del estado Pro-Japones de Wang Chingwei.
y asi he encontrado varias otras fuentes militares y politicas o economicas que hacen referencia al estado Por-Japones de Nanking bajo este nombre "oscuro" de Cochinchina,por tanto deduzco que esa ha sido alguna denominacion alternativa ademas de la conocida de "Estado Pro-Japones de Nanking" y otras que aparecen en el articulo de mi amigo.
es una verdadera lastima que mi amigo,el japones-peruano no haya podido contestarle, como el habia profundizado mas en esta materia,el pudo haberle dado mayores expli caciones acerca de esta "oscura" cuestion. para mi basta con darles estas menciones historicas,pero reitero,existen otra mas en otras fuentes,que como no tengo a mano en casa no puedo citarlas.
Pedro Gonzales Un filo-japones convencido en Latinoamerica.
- Anyone have any idea what he's going on about? I don't speak Spanish (kind of silly, leaving comments in Spanish on the English Wikipedia...) Noel (talk) 04:14, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
I attach a babelfish translation of the above from Spanish to English: its not perfect, but certainly a little more comprehensible.
Ah, as I said in an occasion, the discussions has of everything, sometimes is good, other times no. I podria to write in ingles, but have preferred to do it in my native language, and the one of my well-known that already went away, the Spanish: lamentably, I am not the author of this I articulate I am only a friend and humble assistant who I collaborate lending the PC to write and to send the information relacionada.el author like not this present, then I I will take the word in its defense. Watch, on the truely doubtful question of the del"estado name" that I administer Chinese lider projapones of Wang Chingwei, "Cochinchina" dire some detail but call things, that ojala my friend could have had saying,: this name, I know perfectly that he is very similar to a region of the indochina south, and I before thought that Japon habia organized algun "been" with that name in that region.pues is apparently that under this denomination in several sources of informacion(Libros, enciclopedias) is referian to the state created by Japanese in Nanking and the near areas, that is the efimera "nation" directed by Wang Chingwei.por example in a book from aviacion "Combat Aircraft of World War Two" (Arm & Armour Press, London) is mentioned that in the section of Japon that this pais during the war, I provide airplanes to the allied aerial Forces of Manchukuo, an Aerial Weapon titere organized by Japon in the state of Wang Chingwei, in another book on Japon, in I articulate call "East Asia and Second World War"(P.93-103) "in the Social section" and Economical Transformations"(P.94-96) is mentioned that Japon bought to very low cost the rice of Siam, Burma and Cochinchina, that is that the state of ours dear friend Wang Chingwei appears again, but in the economicos aspects of Japon. Another memory which I have and has relation with this subject, is that my grandparents related to me that during decadas of 30s and 40s, the things tenian friendship with a family of Japoneses.entre fishermen that my grandparents decian is that but far he was in the "Cochinchina" and when asks said to me: "the Japanese friends, commented to them that Japon tapeworm a nation called friend asi". therefore this is another additional mention of the state Pro-Japones de Wang Chingwei. and asi I have found several other military and politicas or economicas sources that make reference to the state By-Japones de Nanking under this "dark" name of Cochinchina, therefore I deduce that that has been some alternative denomination ademas of the well-known one of "State Pro-Japones de Nanking" and other that they appear in I articulate of my friend. she is a true one hurts that my friend, the japones-Peruvian has not been able to answer to him, like habia deepened but in this matter, could have given greater expli caciones to him about this "dark" question for my coarse one with giving these historicas mentions them, but I reiterate, exist other but in other sources, that as I do not have by hand in house I cannot mention them. Pedro Gonzales an edge-japones convinced in Latinoamerica.
Here's a looser, but more fluent translation (I have no way of verifying anything he says -- I just translated it because the babelfish translation was just horrible, and I can read Spanish - I guess it would help if people could figure out what he was talking about). --Franchin 09:40, August 22, 2005 (UTC)
Ah, as I have said previously, in the discussions to date, sometimes it is good, sometimes not. I would like to write in English, but preferred to write in my native language, the one that I know the best, Spanish. Lamentably, I am not the author - I state that I am only a friend and humble assistant to the author, whom I collaborate with by lending the computer to write and send the related information. The author is not here, so I take a few words to defend him. See, on the truly dubious question of the name of the state that I gave for the pro-Japanese Chinese leader Wang Chingwei - "Cochinchina", that I may have heard my friend say something else: I know perfectly well that the name is very similar to [the name of] a region of southern Indochina, and I before thought that Japan had organized some "state" with that name in the region. Then, apparently under this name in several sources of information (books, encyclopedias), it refers to the state created by the Japanese in Nanking and surrounding areas, that is the ephemeral "nation" lead by Wang Chingwei. For example, in a book on aviation called "Combat Aircraft of World War Two" (Arm & Armour Press, London), it is mentioned in the section on Japan that this nation during the war provided airplanes to the allied Air Forces of Manchuria, Thailand(Siam) and Cochinchina, not exactly the region of Indochina, a decoy Air Wing organized by Japan in Wang Chingwei's state. In another book on Japan, I had said was called "East Asia and Second World War"(P.93-103) in the chapter "Social and Economical Transformations" (P.94-96), it is mentioned that Japan bought at a very low cost the rice of Siam, Burma and Cochinachina; our friend Wang Chingwei's state appears again, but in economic terms in Japan. What I remember about this topic is that my grandparents told me that during the 1930s and 1940s, they were friends with a Japanese fishing family. Among the things my grandparents said was that they [the Japanese fishing family] were deep in "Cochinchina", and when I asked, they told me, "the Japanese friends, they commented to them that Japan had a so-called "friendly nation", which was another name for the pro-Japanese state of Wan Chingwei. And so I have found several other military, political, and economic sources that make reference to the pro-Japanese state of Nanking under this obscure name of Cochinchina; therefore, I deduce that there have been alternative names for the well-known "pro-Japanese State of Nanking" and others that I have stated for my friend. It is truly a shame that my friend, a Peruvian Japanese, has not been able to reply to me, as he has a deeper knowledge of this material, and can explain better about this "obscure" question, instead of my rough explainations, citing the historical references that mention them, but I reiterate, that exist in other sources that I do not have on hand in my house, and so I cannot cite them.
Pedro Gonzales, an avant-garde Japanese [I think he means a first-generation Issei Japanese?] located in Latin America.
I gave my shot at improving the focus and flow of the introduction, front-loading the five w's. There is an ambiguity I may have compounded into error - in some wiki references, March 29 establishes the government, March 30 establishes the new head of state - could it be one date for both? Duncan Delp 07:09, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
Theories about Wang Chingwei's collaborations with the Japanese
If someone can rewrite this information so that it is intelligible, fine. Otherwise the heading and the gibberish that ensues should be deleted from the article. RogerK 22:49, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
I know I risk ruining another article, but we have another article on the topic: Dadao government (Shanghai 1937-1940). As always, when Japanese-Chinese relations are discussed in Wikipedia, one article is from the Japanese side, and one from the Chinese side. Well, all the guys who love to improve our Latin friends articles, have fun with the merge. -- Mkill 01:21, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
Chinese armies with Japanese commanders?
In the "Incidents" (battles) listed, Chinese armies are listed as being commanded by Japanese officers. Is this because (1) yes, they were commanded by Japanese officers, or (2) the material is cited from or by a Japanese source/editor who transliterated Chinese names using Japanese pronunciation, or (3) they are actually commanders of Japanese forces and not Chinese ones? This article needs a bit of work. --Sumple (Talk) 23:51, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm against the move from Wang Jingwei regime to ROC (Nanajing), because this can be confusing to many just by reading the topic name alone. First of all, ROC (Nanjing), is this the ROC ruled by the Kuomintang when it defeated the Beiyang warlords and moved the capital to Nanjing in 1928, as opposed to the collaborationist regime established in 1940? If you go on any library search engine and type ROC Nanjing, you won't find anything on the puppet regime, but you'll get plenty if you type in Wang Jingwei regime/puppet/collaborationist government. The title "Wang Jingwei regime" doesn't sound "formal" is not good enough a reason for such a move. Blueshirts (talk) 12:59, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
- I see what you mean. On a similar basis, Vichy France's official name was the French State, which can be slightly confusing, as it can also mean, literally, the French Republic. I rephrased the introduction a little bit. I think the official name should stay in the navigation template, though. Jean-Jacques Georges (talk) 13:15, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
Name change proposal
Wang Jingwei died in 1944, however this state lasted more than him, so calling it "Wang Jingwei regime" or "Wang Jingwei Government" is surely uncorrect. We all know we couldn't name it Republic Of China: it was its real name, but it is confusing and will probably led to protests by chinese editors. Names such as Republic of China-Nanjing, Nanjing regime and Nanjing Nationalist Government are confusing too for obvious reason. So i propose: Reorganized National Government of China (which is the other official name of the state) or Collaborationist China. I prefer the first one, because its an official name. What do you think? --AndreaFox2 (talk) 19:28, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
Official country name romanization
During the Republican Era, the ROC used Postal Romanization, not Hanyu Pinyin, for romanization of location names for administrative purposes (e.g. Nanking, Foochow, Chungking, etc); hence the name of the ROC would be Chunghwa Minkuo, i.e. in parallel with Chunghwa Post, Chunghwa Telecom, etc. This also matches with the namesake of Manchukuo. The Hanyu Pinyin pronunciation is already present within the lede anyway, for those interested in how the characters should be pronounced in the modern day. -- | —Talk contribs email 05:55, 24 September 2011 (UTC)