Talk:Resurrection appearances of Jesus
|This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Resurrection appearances of Jesus article.|
|WikiProject Christianity / Latter Day Saints||(Rated C-class, High-importance)|
|A fact from Resurrection appearances of Jesus appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know? column on 5 February 2005. The text of the entry was as follows: "Did you know
- 1 Merge Noli me tangere to ressurection proposal
- 2 Markan priority
- 3 Homophobia?
- 4 Appearances in John
- 5 Original research in the first para
- 6 Mark 16:9-20
- 7 Para removed from 1 Cor discussion
- 8 appearence to Paul
- 9 Original research on "not in bodily form"
- 10 In Universe Style
- 11 Noli me Tangere
- 12 deleting non-notable, poorly sourced information
- 13 Missing important item.
- 14 Change article name?
Merge Noli me tangere to ressurection proposal
- Oppose-These are two distinct topics : the words of Christ and the Ressurection. --Jondel 05:14, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
- Oppose, per Jondel. As a theme in religious art alone, Noli me tangere could grow into a large article; it has been treated by almost every major painter from Giotto to Veronese. Skarioffszky 15:32, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
I think this paragraph (currently beginning "According to the theory of Markan priority") is largely twaddle.
- The theory of "Markan priority" doesn't say that John derives from Mark; it's only a theory about the Synoptics.
- It doesn't, so far as I know, specifically say that the resurrection narratives of Matthew and Luke derive from Mark's.
- If it were conclusively shown that Mark originally had no resurrection narratives, all that would follow is that Matthew and Luke didn't in fact copy theirs from Mark.
- The paragraph refers to "the heterodoxy" but surely means "the orthodox". Actually, the whole article is riddled with instances of "heterodox" that clearly should say "orthodox"; very strange.
There seems to me to be only one valid point here: that if Mark, the earliest gospel, originally had no resurrection appearances then this would argue against there having actually been any. (Not against there having been a resurrection, since no one disputes that Mark has an empty tomb and a claim of resurrection.)
I am about to replace it with a shorter paragraph containing fewer highly dubious claims. If anyone cares to argue that this is an error, let's discuss.
Gareth McCaughan 02:05, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
I've just deleted another bit of silliness. The article, until a few minutes ago, claimed that Kastner's theory (that Jesus didn't want to be touched by Mary because he was concerned lest she be tempted by his naked body) implies homophobia on John's part because he doesn't report any such concern about Thomas. That's silly because there are other explanations at least as plausible as homophobia: for instance, perhaps John supposed that Jesus was unclothed immediately after the resurrection but clothed when he appeared several days later to Thomas; or perhaps John supposed that Mary and Thomas were both straight and known to be so. Gareth McCaughan 02:38, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
were both straight and known to be so.
I think the word you're looking for is heterosexual Also, it's not too much of a stretch of the imagination that a guy with 12 'close friends' that follow him around all the time might be homosexual. It's not like it's against nature or anything: Homosexuality in animals
Your comment totally ignores the nuances of a master-pupil relationship that is to be found in the middle and far east of which people in the west are totally ignorant. The closest is perhaps the relationship of master and apprentice but even that is a poor comparison. There are numerous such stories of love between men who were not necessarily homosexual/bisexual. Especially in relation to the Sufi relationship between a master (Pir) and the student (Murid) to whom esoteric secrets were imparted. The relationship between Shams of Tabriz and Rumi for example. There is no reason to sexualise it into something rather vulgar (the sexualisation of it, an aftermath of Freud). One would much rather it be left sublime, romantic and related to Agape rather than Eros. SEMTEX85 (talk) 14:06, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
Appearances in John
Right at the beginning of the article there's what purports to be a comprehensive list of appearances in the canonical gospels. But (1) it describes John's account of Jesus's second appearance to the disciples together, at which Thomas was present, simply as "to Thomas Didymus", and (2) it entirely omits the appearance described in John 21, as indeed does the entire article. This seems like a pretty serious omission. Gareth McCaughan 02:41, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Original research in the first para
The opening paragraph attempts to reconcile the different lists given by Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and Paul. It says that "the several occasions on which Jesus appeared after the empty tomb, in order, are ..." and then gives a composite list of appearances based on all five sources. However, this reconciliation is original research unless attributed to a source.
As an example, the first paragraph identifies the appearance to Peter reported by Paul with that reported by Luke -- but this identification is pure speculation. We should remove this composite list and replace it with the separate lists given by each source. Grover cleveland 03:06, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
There may be an inconsistency with the article linked in Mark_16, because that article mentions Irenaeus, a 2th century church father quoting from that questioned ending, so he originally used a manuscript with that ending before the so-called "earliest" manuscripts.
You can find a good discussion on Mark 16 at http://www.new-life.net/faq011.htm . Though the author believes that part is in the original texts, he presents a detailed explanation, why.
Thanks, VATTee 11:57, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
- Your reference to an online blog is not a Wikipedia:Reliable sources. 184.108.40.206 (talk) 05:53, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
This is not the NT Textual Scholarship page. It is sufficient here to note the content in the appropriate place, with a comment that it is uncertain whether Mark 16:9-20 is part of the original text, and a link to the discussion elsewhere. Tb (talk) 13:30, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
Para removed from 1 Cor discussion
This appears to violate WP:SYN since it was placed as a commentary on the 1 Cor appearance, but is based on a reference that does not appear to be addressing that passage. Grover cleveland (talk) 20:43, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
appearence to Paul
Unlike the other appearences, there is no indication of bodily anything in the appearance to Paul. It is clear from the NT that this appearance is not like the others--which is only to be expected, given that a narration of it is only given in Acts, after the Ascension. I would like the comment to remain that it was "probably not in bodily form" for this reason. The editor who deleted the clause explains that the Paul took the experience very seriously--which I don't doubt--but saying that the appearance was different in kind does not imply that it was somehow not important. Tb (talk) 22:20, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
- I agree with you. But there are probably other sources to expand the section, and one day I will ge to it, or you can do so if you wish. Thanks. History2007 (talk) 00:58, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
Original research on "not in bodily form"
An editor has repeatedly inserted the gloss that the appearance to Paul was "probably not in bodily form". This addition constitutes original research for several reasons:
- The phrase "probably not in bodily form", or an equivalent thereof, does not occur in Biblical text of Acts which is the only cited source.
- The use of the word "probably" shows that this is speculation. Speculation is explicitly banned as Original Research unless it is cited in a published Reliable Source (it's in the very first sentence of WP:OR).
- Because the Bible is a primary source, it is subject to the restrictions on use of Primary Sources specified in WP:OR. Specifically:
- anyone—without specialist knowledge—who reads the primary source should be able to verify that the Wikipedia passage agrees with the primary source. Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation.
Could someone with no specialist knowledge clearly tell that the cited Biblical passage states that the appearance was not in bodily form? Clearly, no. Please find a reliable secondary source that states that the appearance was not in bodily form. If one can be found, then it's fine to keep the phrase in the article. If one is not be found, it must be removed. Cheers. Grover cleveland (talk) 06:18, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
- How about this, "nothing in this report mentions bodily appearance", or words to that effect? Tb (talk) 00:50, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- What's wrong with it is that it is not backed up by citations per WP:V and substitutes the subjective judgment of a Wikipedia editor for those of reliable sources, contravening WP:OR. To put it another way, suppose I disagree and say "actually, I think this appearance was probably in bodily form". Who is to judge one way or another? What does "in bodily form" mean anyway? Grover cleveland (talk) 06:43, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
- As I said, I have no objection to adding a fact tag, and when I'm back with my library at hand (I'm in the midst of moving across the country and books are in transit), I'll get some appropriate references. So far, however, you're just saying, "suppose I disagree." Well, so far, nobody actually has. I haven't substituted judgment for reliable sources: it's not as if there is some reliable source out there contradicting the text I would like to see retained, and there isn't any editor who actually has proposed a problem with it. All we've got is your insistence that a source would be good: and I agree. Tb (talk) 20:14, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
- Technically, in bodily form would have implied that "somehow" some cells (e.g. the cone cells) in the retina of the observer (e.g. St Paul), were activated. Given the loss of sight, the matter is really complicated. My personal guess from reading the Gospels is that St Paul did not get a clear image formed on his retina in that experience, but since I am not a scripture scholar, please do not take my word for it. A more complete web search may yet show more references. Cheers History2007 (talk) 11:04, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
In Universe Style
Hi, a couple of days ago I tagged four articles relating to Jesus with the 'in universe' tag. They have all since been removed so someone probably thought it was vandalism thus removed them. Well it wasn't, and this article is the worst of the four.
There is no mention at all in this article that it is about “what Christians believe”, in fact it is referenced throughout with the bible as if it is the unquestionable truth – a book which most consider, at least in part, fictional. Do not let your way of 'thinking' ruin an article.
Look at any of the pages relating to Greek or Roman mythology; how is this any different? They are even called mythology! The only real difference between Christianity and Greek mythology is some people believe Christianity is true (there are many books on Greek mythology, many of those proclaim themselves to be the truth as well).
- Presumably you will also be similarly "in-universe" tagging the articles about works of other writers of about the same time such as, say, Josephus and his works Antiquities of the Jews and The Wars of the Jews. If I recall correctly, doesn't scholarly opinion reckon that the works of Josephus and of the Gospel writers have comparable (i.e. not wildly different) historical and fictional basis? Let us know how you get on with tagging those Josephus and Jews articles, so we can attempt to improve this one. Thanks. Meanwhile, because those articles remain untagged, I'm pulling this article into line with them by untagging. Hope that's OK. Feline Hymnic (talk) 19:58, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
- Because other articles do it it's OK in this one too? I guess your right, that's the way to make wiki better.
- I am not familiar with those things which you mentioned, I am however familiar with this. I was under the impression that the point of a wiki was for people to criticise, and thus improve, the content which they are familiar with; which is what I am doing.
Noli me Tangere
I beleive what he really said was "noone can touch me now", being within the safe enclosure of the higher realm, with other laws governing him now (enclosure= the grail etc - which can also be explained scientifically when you acheive full herat coherence = christ consciousness). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.127.116.11 (talk) 12:03, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
deleting non-notable, poorly sourced information
I've deleted information throughout the article that doesn't represent a mainstream view and doesn't have a notable, scholarly citation. It's great to recount more than one opinion on the topic, but they need to be notable, cited opinions. Please don't replace this deleted information without providing scholarly evidence that these opinions are notable.
Missing important item.
> The major Resurrection appearances of Jesus are reported in the New Testament <
- Most other encyclopedias do not consider the Shroud a resurrection appearance. Please check general encyclopedic sources, and it will be clear. History2007 (talk) 21:11, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
Change article name?
- The Canon Debate, McDonald & Sanders editors, 2002, chapter 32, page 577, by James D. G. Dunn: "For Peter was probably in fact and effect the bridge-man (pontifex maximus!) who did more than any other to hold together the diversity of first-century Christianity. James the brother of Jesus and Paul, the two other most prominent leading figures in first-century Christianity, were too much identified with their respective "brands" of Christianity, at least in the eyes of Christians at the opposite ends of this particular spectrum. But Peter, as shown particularly by the Antioch episode in Gal 2, had both a care to hold firm to his Jewish heritage, which Paul lacked, and an openness to the demands of developing Christianity, which James lacked. John might have served as such a figure of the center holding together the extremes, but if the writings linked with his name are at all indicative of his own stance he was too much of an individualist to provide such a rallying point. Others could link the developing new religion more firmly to its founding events and to Jesus himself. But none of them, including the rest of the twelve, seem to have played any role of continuing significance for the whole sweep of Christianity—though James the brother of John might have proved an exception had he been spared." [Italics original]