Talk:Resurrection of Jesus

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Untitled[edit]

This article has been merged from Resurrection of Jesus, Historicity of the Resurrection of Jesus and Death of Jesus in September 2006, those pages now redirect here.

I Can't Make Sense of the Counting[edit]

The third day after Good Friday is the following Monday, unless you count both days, Friday and Sunday. The same goes with the ascension. If Jesus first appeared on Easter Sunday, then forty days later (i.e after Easter Sunday) would be a Friday - unless of course, one counts both Easter Sunday and the Ascension of Jesus. The wording "...celebrated on the 40th day of Easter (always a Thursday)" doesn't make sense either, unless Easter starts on a Saturday. Could anyone explain? All the best 85.220.22.139 (talk) 17:25, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

I seem to recall Sundays are not counted.— Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 18:52, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
Hebrew works a bit differently from English. Past tense and present tense were sort of mashed together, as I recall, resulting in a worldview were if a day wasn't finished yet, you'd count that day as well. Friday, Saturday, and Sunday thus becomes three days. Ian.thomson (talk) 19:15, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
(After edit conflict) I looked at Lent and can't find what I said--except when the number of days of Lent is calculated for Catholics.Since they end Lent on Maundy Thursday, the article says their Lent is thirty-eight days, with Sundays not included. But nowhere in that article does it say where the forty days comes from. It simply says that if you start with Ash Wednesday and end with Easter, that is forty days. Which it isn't.
If you want to get really confused, I once heard a radio preacher say Jesus rose on Saturday and, therefore, we should be worshipping on Saturday. This man preached the message that nearly every church was wrong (worshipping on Sunday) on Sunday after Sunday (at least that's when he was in the radio studio, or when he was broadcast; I once heard him say he was being told his time was up so that was it for today). Which doesn't work because the Sabbath in the Bible starts at sunset. So it's already the next day, what we call Sunday, even if that is true.— Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 19:10, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

Forty hours in the tomb[edit]

The Lent article says "tradition" says Jesus spent forty hours in the tomb, and gives a source. While there is no proof of that, if the statement is accepted there it should be accepted here.— Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 19:27, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

faith or belief[edit]

the lede currently says... "The resurrection of Jesus refers to the Christian faith that after being put to death to take the punishment for sins Jesus rose again from the dead." Faith seems to make no sense here? It should be "belief" Theroadislong (talk) 19:46, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

Sounds right to me.— Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 20:09, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
I edited it before I realized we had a discussion going on the talk page, but it seems to me that most editors, with the exception of one, have changed it back to the word belief. It seems to me that this seems to be the predominant consensus. Dromidaon (talk) 16:51, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
Belief is the more accurate word and grammatically correct... user:sopher99 is edit warring against consensus without explanation. Theroadislong (talk) 19:27, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
Belief sounds like it is making it out to be doubtful or trivial, when it is in fact central. Sopher99 (talk) 23:25, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
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This was from before "faith" was changed back to "belief":
(edit conflict)If we're really going to be silly about what is other wise clear cut consensus and have to pull sources:
Ian.thomson (talk) 00:15, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Sources for Christian Faith

http://www.catholictreasury.info/lord2.php

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/joeljmiller/2014/04/is-the-resurrection-essential-to-christian-belief/

http://www.guelphmercury.com/living-story/4472490-why-is-the-resurrection-so-important-to-christians-/

http://www.charismanews.com/opinion/43551-5-life-changing-truths-you-should-know-about-the-resurrection

http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=10&article=951

http://www.compellingtruth.org/bodily-resurrection.html

http://www.jesus.org/death-and-resurrection/resurrection/other-christian-truths-depend-on-the-resurrection.html

http://www.phpc.org/images/images_A7994/Christian%20Faith%20and%20Cremation.pdf

http://carm.org/bahai-and-the-resurrection-of-christ

http://www.christianity.co.nz/res-2.htm

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/resurrection-of-the-body

http://www.luc.edu/faculty/pmoser/idolanon/Resurrectionnotice.html

http://www.gospelway.com/god/resurrection-significance.php

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a11.htm

http://www.fijitimes.com/story.aspx?id=266211

http://www.allaboutreligion.org/christian-faith.htm

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/04/20/did-christians-really-steal-the-idea-of-easter-and-jesus-resurrection-from-pagans/

http://www.thenazareneway.com/resurrection_of_jesus.htm

http://www.disciplemagazine.com/www/articles/206.1268

http://www.reasonablefaith.org/jesus-resurrection

http://www.gci.org/jesus/risen5

Sopher99 (talk) 00:28, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

You're joking, right? With a couple of exceptions, I cited academic sources. When I cited sources that weren't academic works, they were by major theologians or published by major theological publishing houses.
The majority of your sources (with the exception of Patheos and the Loyola University of Chicago) appear to be church websites, which would only be accurate for statements about themselves, not for the whole religion. CARM comes a little closer, but academically, they're a joke.
Then there's the issue that none of your sources, so far as I can find, seem to use "the Christian faith" the way you used it in the article. They refer to the whole religion as the Christian faith, but not a specific doctrine as "(a) Christian faith." They refer to the resurrection as the most important belief (even if some of them missed that word for "cornerstone," "centre" "bedrock," "foundation," "basis," "proof", "teaching," "fact," "reality," or something else along those lines) within the faith. That's how English works, especially when discussing theology. Many of those phrasings need little if modification to change into "cornerstone belief," "central belief," "foundational belief," "basic belief."
Heck, one of your sources calls it a belief: "The Gospels contain reliable eyewitness accounts of Jesus, His life and His resurrection. This was the general belief for 1,700 years in the Western world..."
The most academic source you cited also calls it a belief: "the defining belief of the earliest Jesus movement"
this source you cited also goes with "belief in the historical resurrection"
The Catechism of the Catholic Church that you cited (by the way, you can find the official one here) says "Belief in the resurrection of the dead has been an essential element of the Christian faith from its beginnings." -- It defines the idea of the resurrection as a belief, which is an essential unit of the whole religion/faith.
It's obvious that all you did was google some combination of the words Christian, faith, and resurrection and pulled whatever sources used the word "belief" the least often.
Ian.thomson (talk) 00:51, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
Sopher99 has tried once again to change "belief" to "faith", without addressing the above correction of his failure to understand how English handles theology. He is engaging in a slow edit war against almost unilateral consensus to give an inaccurately used phrasing undue weight due to his misunderstanding of sources. Ian.thomson (talk) 16:01, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
Calling it a belief is undue weight, it is a central to faith in Christianity. Sopher99 (talk) 08:02, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
I do not doubt that it's central to the Christian faith but it is still a belief and you are edit warring to insert your preferred version without consensus having just come out of a block for edit warring here. Theroadislong (talk) 08:40, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
I don't see why you are so adamant at preventing a change in syntax. Why can't we just re-arrange the sentence? Sopher99 (talk) 08:46, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
For example, the German version of the article reads "The resurrection of Jesus Christ is a central article of faith in Christianity. After the proclamation of the New Testament (NT) arose Jesus Christ , Son of God , on the third day after his crucifixion from the dead to a new, indestructible life and appeared to His disciples in bodily form." Sopher99 (talk) 08:48, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

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Sopher99, your total inability to grasp English is nothing but frustrating. It is not undue to say belief, as all the sources presented (even the ones you presented, when read in actual English instead of blind POV pushing) either use the word belief or a synonym thereof. I'd be fine with changing "belief" to "central belief," but this superstitious opposition to the word "belief" you have leaves me with the impression you should not be editing religion articles.
The German Wikipedia (which has no authority over us) doesn't say "the central faith." It says "central ARTICLE of faith," article of faith being a synonym for belief and vice versa. How does belief translate? Glauben. One could just as easily translate the words you (or rather Google translate) chose to translate as "article of faith" as "held belief."
Why are you so adamant about inserting the word "faith" in there, even when doing so is just plain bad English that doesn't read right? Why are you so intent on having Wikipedia written in bad English just to put an incorrectly used word in there? It's hypocritical for you to say that other people are being adamant about this, everyone else is just trying to keep the article readable, you're the fanatic here.
This is getting ridiculous. The next revert by you, I will report you to the admins and advocate both a block for edit warring and a topic ban from this article. If I see this sort of behavior elsewhere, I will push a topic ban from all Christianity related articles. You are being nothing but tendentious. Ian.thomson (talk) 14:18, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
Agree with Ian - although not quite so vociferously - belief and faith are synonyms so what's the hubbub, bub...? Ckruschke (talk) 18:54, 28 April 2014 (UTC)Ckruschke

Historicity and NPOV[edit]

This article seems to be devoted not only to describing the belief in the resurrection, but to arguing for the resurrection as an actual event. For the record, the majority view among scholars of the field is that there is no factual reason to believe the resurrection occurred, and several leading scholars have made it quite clear they do not believe in it, and even scholars who believe in it accept that it's a matter of belief, not anything that can be factually proven. Reading the section on the historicity of the resurrection, there is no mention of this. Through a quite extreme use of WP:CHERRY, the section manages to give the reader the image that most scholars accept the resurrection as something that happened. This is quite misleading, and violates WP:POV.Jeppiz (talk) 22:10, 5 October 2014 (UTC)