Talk:Richard Allen (bishop)

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Richard Allen (Bishop)[edit]

The title of this article should be changed to Richard Allen (Bishop) to be consistent with other articles about Methodist bishops. KitHutch 22:57, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Wesley's position on slavery[edit]

The fact that some slaveowners may have known that Wesley hated slavery is irrelevant to this article on Richard Allen, or if it is relevant, it needs to be explained in the article. --DDerby-(talk) 08:45, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

It stands to reason Allen may have chose this faith because Wesley hated slavery.
grazon 08:48, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
OK, I see now.--DDerby-(talk) 09:06, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Need[edit]

I need to know how richard allen INFLUENCED OTHER PEOPLE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

He was a religious leader? — LlywelynII 02:10, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Superslum[edit]

He was colored

He led colored people in a colored church. Superslum 11:08, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Unless you have sources that he or his church specifically advocated that term, if we're using outdated ones we could just as well say "negro". (He was even named "Negro Richard".) That said, the WP:NPOV terms for 21st-century American discourse are black and African American and there's no need to use the broader "colored". To my knowledge, none of Allen's congregation at the African ME were Indian, Arab, or East Asian. — LlywelynII 02:23, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
Liars' Lairs

This article is beseiged by liars. No colored people who lived in North America prior to 1866 could cast a vote, which means that those negroes were not "Americans." There are certain articles in this web site at which liars consistently operate. They are "Liars' Lairs" (extraordinarily so, too). Liars are determined to brainwash the people of the world via the Internet. Superslum 04:32, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

With respect, they probably aren't lairs and, in the English language, residents of the United States with no other affiliation are still Americans even if they do not have the full rights of American citizens. There is also a difference between federal, state, and local suffrage in America. Not that things weren't bad, but I would be quite surprised if no black man could vote anywhere in America in any election until after 1865. — LlywelynII 02:34, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
Fat&Happy (talk) 03:41, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
Free Negro

The most accurate and precise legal descriptive for the Reverend Allen is "Free Negro." Free Negroes were not citizens of any nation. Free Negroes were similar (legally similar) to Jews who lived in various European nations, but who could not participate in the government of the nation in which they lived. Many Free Negroes lived in North America, early on. Wikipedia disallows the use of the term Free Negro, however. The term Free Negro had been extremely common in the United States until recently. Superslum 05:24, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure Wikipedia has any problem with "free negro", except WP:USEENGLISH and WP:ENGVAR mean neither should be capitalized and WP:NPOV and WP:USEENGLISH suggest we should go with "black" or "African American", given that our articles are written in the 21st century. Your use of the term to legally or mystically suggest something different from freedman status probably lacks WP:RS, though. They weren't stateless people: they were (mistreated) legal residents of the United States. — LlywelynII 02:44, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
They could not vote

Free Negroes did not own homes in Philadelphia, ergo, there was no such thing as a "black community" in Philadelphia. Free Negroes could not vote or participate in the affairs of the government, ergo, they were not "Americans" in any way. Slaves still toiled in Pennsylvania at that time. Slaveowners lived in Pennsylvania until the 1850s. People should stop their re-creating of the history of the United States. Superslum 22:13, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Leaving aside Americans (already discussed) and that community can refer to any group of people whether or not they have a dwelling or even live near one another, your suggestion that freedmen could not own private property in Quaker-based Pennsylvania is surprising. One of the claims to fame for Allen and the AME is that their church in Philly represents the longest continually black-owned property in the United States. If it spent its first decades owned by a white proxy or a legal entity nominally controlled by a white, it's probably worth finding WP:RS and mentioning here and at the AME and church page. — LlywelynII 02:48, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
the Bullshit subsection

Wikipedia has developed a portion with pages composed of peculiar statements which appear to be the work of 12 to 15-years-old children who have been informed by watching Sesame Street and The PBS Network for a couple of years, intermittently. The article on the Reverend Allen fits into that bullshit subsection. New International Encyclopedia says:

ALLEN, Richard (1760-1831) A colored Methodist preacher. He was born in slavery, but bought his freedom and afterward acquired considerable wealth. He became a local Methodist preacher in 1782 and organized the first church for colored people in the United States, in Philadelphia, in 1793. He was the first colored minister ordained by Bishop Asbury (1799), and was elected a bishop of the African Methodist Episcopal Church on its formation in 1816. He died in Philadelphia.

The succinct words are exactly those contained in the New International Encyclopedia. There are no other words relating to his owner, i.e., that his owner had a change of heart. His owner may have simply turned a profit by selling him his freedom. (The technique is known as "Buy low, sell high"). Now that I have expressed my great disdain for the bullshit subsection of Wikipedia, I shall forever keep my distance from Richard Allen (reverend). Who placed that stupid template and those idiotic categories onto his page? "Toodle-ooh." Superslum 10:59, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Not sure what you're complaining about but thanks for the WP:RS. Use those more next time and try to leave off the pejoratives. — LlywelynII 02:56, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Founding of the AME church[edit]

The African Methodist Episcopal Church article indicates the AME Church was founded in 1793. This Wiki piece gives a date of 1816 as the founding date. The confusion needs to be addressed by someone more knowledgeable than I --Dumarest 12:59, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I reread fully the AME article, and see my confusion. The 1793 founding was the Bethel African Methodist Church, not the AME itself, which was 1816. --Dumarest 13:18, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

The Second Great Awakening section on African Americans suggests that the group existed prior to that and just became formally independent of the Methodists' white bishops in 1816. If that's in error and the organization didn't exist at all, it probably needs correcting as well. — LlywelynII 02:56, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Great[edit]

he was a great man

Not to knock him, but Harry Hosier seems to have been a bigger draw and had a better memory and Absalom Jones got canonized. — LlywelynII 02:56, 18 October 2013 (UTC)