Talk:Richard Nixon

College football?

Why is this article in the scope of WikiProject College football? Eagles 24/7 (C) 04:26, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Because Nixon played college football at Whittier College, and was a very big college football fan, even calling in a play while in office Purplebackpack89≈≈≈≈ 07:47, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

But there is no mention of that anywhere in this article. Shouldn't there at least be a mention somewhere? Eagles 24/7 (C) 15:53, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

I"m currently away. I can add when I get home that he played football. Well, was on the football team, more accurately.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:09, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Sorry about the long delay. I've added the information. He did not in fact play, but he was on the team. By the way, the "calling a play" thing is quite possibly apocryphal and supposedly involved the Redskins.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:41, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Redirects

I've noticed that we have two redirects for the classic "Not a crook" line. I'm not a crook redirects to this article, while I am not a crook redirects to Watergate scandal. Not a crook is not a redirect. My question is this - these should clearly point to the same article, but which one? the "I'm" version was re-targeted to Nixon in 2010, and was previously pointed at the Scandal article. Thoughts? UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 13:29, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Watergate, I'd think. Less to wade through for the reader and they can easily come here if they want biographical information.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:32, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Lead length template

I think the template that says the lead is too long should be removed. The lead is 4 paragraphs. The manual says the lead should be 3 or 4 paragraphs if the article is more than 30 K characters long. This article is 127 K bytes long. --Ettrig (talk) 15:16, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

The spirit of "ignore all rules" is that we should use common sense, and not just say "the manual of style says no more than 4 paragraphs, and this only has 4 paragraphs, so it's fine." The manual of style also says that the lead should be "accessible", and I think that the amount of information in this lead is more than is necessary and makes it less accessible than it could be, so there is room for improvement. Three of the four are very long paragraphs, some of which probably should be divided up or at least shortened. Paragraph 2 covers his life from birth to 1968. Paragraphs 3 and 4 go into more depth with more specifics than is needed for a lead. I am not saying it needs to be drastically reduced in size, just cut down a little. It's 558 words long. Compare that with Lyndon Johnson's article lead, which is 327 words long, and which I think is a more managable size for a president's article lead. Johnson's doesn't go into too much detail in the lead that should be left for the body, Nixon's does. I am restoring the template. Mmyers1976 (talk) 19:49, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

I appreciate the explanation. Have you considered this article is basically unaltered from when it passed FAC, recently?--Wehwalt (talk) 19:51, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

I'll quote from Article Development:

Featured articles are well polished, but there are usually small improvements that can be made. Do not ever be afraid to correct mistakes or update information when you see an opportunity; few articles are perfect, even though perfection is always our goal. We have a formal procedure for encouraging Wikipedians to review and improve featured articles: Featured Article Review.Mmyers1976 (talk) 20:25, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

I understand your point. I think the current lede is adequate. If you have specific changes you'd like to suggest, we can discuss them.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:31, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

As I told you, nothing drastic, just a little simplification and trimming of the fat to improve readability and leave some of the details for the meat of the article: Richard Milhous Nixon (January 9, 1913 – April 22, 1994) was the 37th President of the United States, serving from 1969 to 1974. The only president to resign the office, Nixon had previously served as a US representative and senator from California and as the 36th Vice President of the United States from 1953 to 1961 under President Dwight D. Eisenhower.

Nixon was born in Yorba Linda, California. He graduated from Whittier College and Duke University School of Law then practiced law in California before working for the federal government in Washington, D.C. in 1942. He subsequently joined the United States Navy, serving in the Pacific Theatre during World War II. Nixon was elected to the House of Representatives in 1946 and to the Senate in 1950. His pursuit of the Hiss Case established his reputation as a leading anti-communist, and elevated him to national prominence. Nixon served for eight years as vice president under Dwight D. Eisenhower. He narrowly lost his first presidential campaign to John F. Kennedy in 1960, then lost a race for Governor of California in 1962. Following these defeats, he announced his withdrawal from political life until his successful presidential bid in 1968.

Nixon initially escalated the unpopular war in Vietnam before completely withdrawing American forces by 1973. Nixon's ground-breaking visit to the People's Republic of China in 1972 opened diplomatic relations between the two nations, and he initiated détente and the Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty with the Soviet Union the same year. In domestic policy, his administration generally sought to transfer power from Washington to the states^{[citation needed]}. In an attempt to slow inflation, Nixon imposed wage and price controls. He enforced desegregation of Southern schools and established the Environmental Protection Agency. Though he presided over Apollo 11, the culmination of the project to land a person on the moon, he scaled back manned space exploration. He was reelected by a landslide in 1972.

Nixon's second term was marked by crisis: first, the Arab oil embargo, then the Watergate scandal, which led to him resigning on August 9, 1974 to avoid impeachment and removal from office. After his resignation, he was controversially issued a pardon by his successor, Gerald Ford. In retirement, he authored several books and reinvented himself as an elder statesman. Nixon suffered a stroke and died four days later four days later on April 18, 1994, and at the age of 81.

Here is another set of possible cuts: --Ettrig (talk) 21:03, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Richard Milhous Nixon (January 9, 1913 – April 22, 1994) was the 37th President of the United States, serving from 1969 to 1974. The only president to resign the office, Nixon had previously served as a US representative and senator from California and as the 36th Vice President of the United States from 1953 to 1961 under President Dwight D. Eisenhower.

Nixon was born in Yorba Linda, California. After completing his undergraduate work at Whittier College, he graduated from Duke University School of Law in 1937 and returned to California to practice law. He and his wife, Pat Nixon, moved to Washington to work for the federal government in 1942. He subsequently served in the United States Navy, serving in the Pacific Theatre during World War II. Nixon was elected to the House of Representatives in 1946 and to the Senate in 1950. His pursuit of the Hiss Case established his reputation as a leading anti-communist, and elevated him to national prominence. He was the running mate of Dwight D. Eisenhower, the Republican Party presidential nominee in the 1952 election, the first of five national nominations he received from his party, a record he shares with Franklin Roosevelt. Nixon served for eight years as vice president, traveling extensively and undertaking major assignments from Eisenhower. He waged an unsuccessful presidential campaign in 1960, narrowly losing to John F. Kennedy, and lost a race for Governor of California in 1962. Following these defeats, he announced his withdrawal from political life. However, In 1968 he ran again for the presidency and was elected.

American involvement in Vietnam was widely unpopular; Although Nixon initially escalated the war in Vietnam, he subsequently moved to ended the US involvement, completely withdrawing American forces by in 1973. Nixon's ground-breaking visit to the People's Republic of China in 1972 opened diplomatic relations between the two nations, and he initiated détente and the Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty with the Soviet Union the same year. In domestic policy, His administration generally sought to transferred power from Washington to the states. In an attempt to slow inflation, Nixon He imposed wage and price controls, enforced desegregation of Southern schools and established the Environmental Protection Agency. Though he presided over Apollo 11, the culmination of the Apollo program that land a person on the moon, he scaled back manned space exploration. He was reelected by a landslide in 1972.

Nixon's second term was marked by crisis: 1973 saw an Arab oil embargo as a result of U.S. support for Israel in the Yom Kippur War and a continuing series of revelations about the Watergate scandal, which began as a break-in at a Washington office. The scandal escalated despite efforts by the Nixon administration to cover it up, costing Nixon much of his political support, and on August 9, 1974, he resigned in the face of almost certain impeachment and removal from office. After his resignation, he was controversially issued a pardon by his successor, Gerald Ford. In retirement, Nixon's work authoring several books and undertaking many foreign trips helped to rehabilitate his image. He suffered a debilitating stroke on April 18, 1994, and died four days later at the age of 81. Nixon remains a source of considerable interest among historians, as they struggle to resolve the enigma of a president of great ability who left office in disgrace yet subsequently reinvented himself as an elder statesman.

I like the last one best, though they are all decent.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:13, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

I like Ettrig's even better than mine, I think we should go with that. Mmyers1976 (talk) 21:16, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Thats fine.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:32, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Allegations of Homosexual Relationship?

The Daily Mail and other news outlets are mentioning a biography by Don Fulsom where a question is raised regarding a homosexual relationship with Bebe Rebozo.

Since this is sourced, should this be mentioned?

I am not going to touch this article unless I get agreement; I don't want to be reverted or get into hot water. I figure here in the talk page is a safe place to start a discussion. Allyn (talk) 02:59, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Actually, I don't bite, or at least not often. However, even though it is sourced, "raising a question" is not enough. I would say it would have to be accepted by at least a significant minority of the scholarly community before I would concur with adding it. And especially since Nixon had a very strong reputation for fidelity to Pat.--Wehwalt (talk) 09:27, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

I read a couple of the articles. One of them says he was estranged from Pat for most of their marriage!!! I think it is unlikely we will want to add this, but I will continue to watch the coverage.--Wehwalt (talk) 09:52, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

I strongly oppose adding this in; it would have to be generally regarded as a fact to include it, or at the very least, as Wehwalt said, it would have to be accepted by a significant number of the community of scholars or historians. This same author, Don Fulsom, alleges that Nixon beat Pat regularly as well... For what it is worth, the state (or states) of the Nixons' marriage has been long debated, and generally the following is accepted: he was smitten with her when they met, she not so much; his persistence and desire to "go places" wooed her and they were married, very much in love; they had two daughters; they were very close during the vice presidential years; their marriage was strong but personal "closeness" during the presidency years waned because of the strain of his job and life in the White House; after the White House they spent more time together and were closer than ever before.

We would need significant concurrence from many, many other sources to even consider including something like this. My guess is that this is going to pass quickly. Happyme22 (talk) 21:35, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Heads-up about vandalism attempt

As it may or may not already have occured yet, in the 30 Rock episode "Subway Hero", Tracy Jordan announces that he is going to remove some unmentioned information from the present article in accordance with the wishes of Richard Nixon (whom he encountered in a vision). __meco (talk) 19:08, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Really? Fortunately we are semi protected for another 11 months or so.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:19, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Nixon's impromptu early a.m. trip to Lincoln Memorial and meeting with peace protestors

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=S14zAAAAIBAJ&sjid=M_gDAAAAIBAJ&pg=4206,2555827&dq=nixon+protesters&hl=en

Nixon Up Early, See Protesters, UPI, Beaver County Times [Pennsylvania], Saturday, May 9, 1970, page one [presumably late edition].

I think this is probably worth including. FriendlyRiverOtter (talk) 03:23, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

What about something like "Nixon's responses to protesters included an impromptu, early morning meeting with them at the Lincoln Memorial"?--Wehwalt (talk) 08:31, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I think something like that would be good. FriendlyRiverOtter (talk) 03:46, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

The following is a pretty good book source I think I'll include as a reference. FriendlyRiverOtter (talk) 02:09, 16 February 2012 (UTC) Before The Fall: An Insider View of the Pre-Watergate White House, with a 2005 Preface by the Author, William Safire, Originally published: Garden City, N.Y. : Doubleday, 1975 (new material 2005), pages 205-209.

Ground invasion of Cambodia announced to American public on April 30, 1970.
8,000 Move Into Cambodia, St. Peterburg Independent (now The Evening Independent), AP (Saigon), May 1, 1970, page 20-A.

And increases in May 1970. Fresh Yanks Join Action In Cambodia, Milwaukee Sentinel, UPI (Saigon, South Vietnam), May 9, 1970, Page 2, Part 1.

I added some of the above. Please tell me what you think. FriendlyRiverOtter (talk) 03:45, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

That's fine, though I may play with the citation. I need to check Nixon bios for that. Obviously the significance of it is clearer if biographers pick up on it. The text looks fine--Wehwalt (talk) 07:52, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

I've sourced it to Black's bio of Nixon, which was the first that came to hand.--Wehwalt (talk) 08:51, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

I generally prefer a variety of sources. And I really think this incident gives such a window on RN's personality that I would like to re-add both, esp. the William Safire book, which gives an excellent and detailed account, but also that news article is pretty good.

Is the Black bio even partially available on line? If not, by being cumbersome for us wiki writers and researchers to check citations, we might lose much of the benefits of the group approach, multiple eyes, all that. FriendlyRiverOtter (talk) 21:11, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Good point. Put them back then.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:19, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Okay. FriendlyRiverOtter (talk) 21:22, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Does article currently over-rely on Black's bio (Feb. 2012)?

For example, there is the following criticism of Black's bio:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/book-reviews/richard-milhous-nixon-the-invincible-quest/2007/08/06/1186252588654.html
“ . . . Black distorts at regular opportunity the incontestable truths of what transpired not only in Watergate but in Vietnam and Cambodia, not only in Nixon's many races for office but also in some important historical events. . . ”

Maybe, maybe not. Look, when someone writes a substantial biography on a major historial figure with controversy, there's going to be all kind of criticism. That's a given. All the same, we are currently relying on this one source rather heavily, and perhaps over-relying on it. That's the question. FriendlyRiverOtter (talk) 21:36, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't think so, not terribly. All of Nixon's biographers have issues. In my opinion, Ambrose was the best, but he didn't have the advantage of a lot of material later biographers had. I tried to jump from one to the other, depending on the period in Nixon's life. Black had the advantage of writing after Nixon's death. I was also sensitive to the fact that Black has personal issues. That being said, Nixon's life is a fairly well-worn tale and we really don't have time in the article to dig into the detail. I was also trying to make the article noncontroversial with an eye at FAC. One of the things I liked about Black is that he gave dates and specific statistics more than other biographers, thus you'll sometimes see him cited in passages involving them. A lot of what I think they are talking about is the commentary he puts in there, and he clearly does feel Nixon did no or little wrong in Watergate. I do not cite him for his opinions, except where specified.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:52, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

I do see how we reference Ambrose's biography a number of times, too. So, that's good, we have a mix of sources. And I like the distinction you say about Black, that he gives a lot of dates and specifics, and then separately, puts in commentary. Now, the above critic says he wasn't able to maintain this distinction, but then again, that's exactly the kind of thing critics are going to say. FriendlyRiverOtter (talk) 22:23, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Biography today seems more chatty and opinionated than it used to be, and every author has a perspective. I'm pretty comfortable about everything in the article. I keep all the sources around, this is always going to be an active talk page. Right now, there's the upcoming 40th anniversary of the China visit. Between one thing and another, Nixon will always be with us.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:35, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure I read that Conrad Black was born in Canada and later moved to England and became a member of the House of Lords. If so, that's a potentially good thing, for it gives his writing a different flavor, as it were. And a potentially really interesting book might be one by a Chinese writer, say a person who was only a teenage girl or boy during Nixon's visit. Now, I don't think there would end up being that many direct disagreements on factual matters, one person saying A, another saying not-A. But on what a writer chooses to emphasize, that might be different. Sometimes in the most interesting books, the author is trying to write a straightforward narrative, but because they're coming at it from a somewhat different angle, it ends up being a fascinating book. FriendlyRiverOtter (talk) 23:19, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

The thing is, in this top level article, we have so little time to dig into those details. This article really doesn't do more than scratch the surface in over 130K. However, I was able to start more leisurely specific articles focusing on individual events in Nixon's career, like United States Senate election in California, 1950 and "Bring Us Together". I suspect there is more written about Nixon than about any 20th century president.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:23, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

RN calling for more research on both cancer and sickle cell anemia?

This is from our lead: " . . initiated wars on cancer and drugs, imposed wage and price controls, enforced desegregation of Southern schools and established the Environmental Protection Agency. Though he presided over Apollo 11, he scaled back manned space exploration. He was reelected by a landslide in 1972. . "

Space permitting, and I know it's not much, maybe we could do a little bit more regarding his efforts against cancer. And from his same speech on Feb. 18, 1971, RN also called for more research on sickle cell anemia.
http://fondationpierrefabre.org/docs/communication/brochures/brochure_fondation_GB.pdf page 4

As people might remember from college biology, sickle cell anemia disportionately affects persons of African descent because one sickle-cell gene is advantageous against malaria whereas two are harmful. And so, regarding Richard Nixon, this shows a side of his personality of siding with the underdog which I think he sometimes like to do. This was part of his complex personality.

And frankly, we might want to modify this "enforced desegregation of Southern schools." I think ol' RN was big against school busing. In fact, I think this was part of his "Southern strategy" in 1968. FriendlyRiverOtter (talk) 02:30, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

---

“ . . In February 1971 Republican president Richard Nixon surprised many Americans by making sickle cell anemia part of his health message to Congress, thus putting it into the bright spotlight of presidential politics. . ”
http://books.google.com/books?id=mtya18oC2EMC&pg=PA165&dq=%22surprised+many+Americans+by+making+sickle+cell+anemia+part+of+his+health+message+to+Congress%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ghtYT67nMrHLsQLfhbzDDQ&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22surprised%20many%20Americans%20by%20making%20sickle%20cell%20anemia%20part%20of%20his%20health%20message%20to%20Congress%22&f=false

---

http://books.google.com/books?id=r2qRyBmB15EC&pg=PA180&lpg=PA180&dq=%22cannot+rewrite+this+record+of+neglect,+but+we+can+reverse+it%22&source=bl&ots=BuRV_GgICk&sig=vFyy3m1OmUCM71yAFCbzOSOnwVc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=dhZYT7q8NcSPsAK3vtSvDQ&sqi=2&ved=0CEAQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=%22cannot%20rewrite%20this%20record%20of%20neglect%2C%20but%20we%20can%20reverse%20it%22&f=false