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Although I am not editing these days, I reserve the right to comment.....I suggest that, as there is nothing presently in the article which justifies W. being presented as a German nationalist, the category Category:German nationalism should not be attributed to him at present. I don't doubt that he asserted, to quote the article German nationalism, "that Germans are a nation and promote[d] the cultural unity of Germans." But in fact the extent and nature of W's support for German nationalism is not entire;ly straightforward. Although he could be very crude in putting down Jews, Frenchmen and others whom he disliked, his attitude to the Prussian Reich was ambiguous, to say the least. Really there needs to be a section [article? book?] discussing Wagner and German nationalism, tracing his changing attitudes from Dresden to the final years. I don't feel that an article should carry a category that it cannot intrinsically justify, although I appreciate that constructing the necessary section is not simple.--Smerus (talk) 08:36, 27 September 2013 (UTC)
Nice to hear from you, Smerus. I think I understand your point, which is he was not a fan of the Prussian Reich; but that is not to say he was not in principle a German nationalist - which is, if I understand rightly, the "message" of Die Meistersinger. A section or article on Wagner and German nationalism is a very good idea - rather surprised it hasn't been tackled yet. Alfietucker (talk) 08:44, 27 September 2013 (UTC)
Nice to hear from you, Smerus. I share your view regarding the category, which seems not even meant for people but for political movements, but will not fight it. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:46, 27 September 2013 (UTC)
Instinctively, I wanted to remove the Category:German nationalism when I noticed its addition. But after noticing several references in the article to Wagner and German nationalism, I refrained, although I agree with Gerda that the category might not be meant for cases like this. For that reason alone, the category should be removed. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 09:53, 28 September 2013 (UTC)
User:Ianatheling has now four times uploaded a lengthy passage about a show and recording by the Finnish band Apocalyptica featuring versions of music by Wagner. I have now reverted it (the previous three reversions were effected by others). There are of course numerous tributes by other musicians, both classical and rock, to Wagner and the article has limited itself, necessarily in my view, to a selection of these (stating clearly 'amongst....'). The article is about Wagner, and if anyone wants to start a separate article, e.g. List of Wagner tributes, such contributions would be acceptable and appropriate. But they do not belong in the biographical article, which would swiftly become overwhelmed by such additions, and which has obtained FA status by concentrating on central issues relating to its subject.--Smerus (talk) 14:03, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
Thank you for having the common decency to explain your point of view on this issue. Previous removals of my edit had failed to offer such an explanation. I may not fully accept your rationale, but I do appreciate the points you have made. I accept that the Apocalyptica project is one of a large number of works which have been 'influenced' by the Richard Wagner. A Wiki page on tributes to Wagner may then be a solution. User:Ianatheling—Preceding undated comment added 15:16, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
Wagner is one of the most influential of composers in history. Even a separate article about his influences could easily be as long (if not longer) than the biographical/works article. I strongly encourage specific influences NOT to be put in the biographical article but in another article. If in 5 or 10 years nobody remembers or cares who was Apocalyptica, that says more about the group than it does about Wagner. -- kosboot (talk) 15:37, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
I do of course accept the obvious statement that Wagner is one of the most influential composers in history. However the line of argument that specific influences should not be included here, would suggest that the previous comments on bands such as Rammstein and Laibach should also be removed, since their 'right' to be included here cannot, at present, be proven to be any greater than Apocalytica. It had been the inclusion of these bands which had convinced me that a comment on Apocalyptica was within the parameters of this page. I would never dare to compare Apocalyptica with Wagner for their notoriety, but Apocalyptica have been playing their cellos now for 20 years, with growing world wide chart success. The comment that nobody will remember or care about them in 5-10 years is somewhat unlikely, and might suggest a level of biased ignorance. User:Ianatheling 18:48 18 November 2013 —Preceding undated comment added 18:55, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
Note that my comment was conditional, so it's not necessary to use language which suggests engaging in argument. Generally for situations such as influences, what I've seen on WP is a small paragraph in the main article summarizing a few major influences which then points to another article where the influences can be enumerated and discussed. It might be worth it to start such an article (perhaps dividing classical/popular genres) using Rammstein, Apocalyptica and others. -- kosboot (talk) 19:06, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
Thank you for your reply, and I would agree that a separate page on the influences of Wagner upon modern music would be a very good idea, requiring considerable research to do it justice. --Ianatheling (talk) 19:49, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
It's certainly true that there is scholarship which attempts to argue that characters in his works are in some emblematic sense "Jewish", even though there are no actual Jewish characters in any of his operas. However, it's wildly exaggerated to say this is "known" or "proven". Personally, I find some of these claims moderately plausible, and others to be strained in the extreme. I don't think there is any real consensus of scholarship on the matter. However, if you read the relevant section, "Racism and antisemitism", you will see that this point is already made in the article. I don't think it should be covered in any more detail here, but you may wish to create a separate article to address the issue in more detail, which can be linked here. Paul B (talk) 21:53, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
Even if one does not agree with all this literature, it is undeniable that these negative characters - which are never openly qualified as Jewish indeed - are at least partly (and I'd say in big part) inspired by antisemitic characteristics and prejudices, that Wagner shared with many of his contemporaries. I don't think this matter should be treated separately, and I don't think an article on the subject would really be a good idea as it would gather its content from many different sources, and therefore risk to be too much of an original research. The "Racism and antisemitism" part does not have to be that much enlarged actually, but I still think a few references to Wagner's works are missing. Based on this very abundant literature, of course. Well, I leave you better judge on that matter... Lass mich wieder hinab! Schlaf verschliesse mein Wissen!— Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.96.36.199 (talk) 23:18, 17 November 2013 (UTC)