Talk:River Lea

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Tributaries[edit]

There's no list of tributaries for this river, there's a note with instructions to follow the link at the bottom of the page but there's only links to the Thames major Tributaries. I can only recall the names of three of the tributaries of this river these being: The Beane, Hart and Mimram. Could some insert these and together the rest of them please?

87.112.227.68 (talk) 19:30, 7 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Scroll to the bottom of the page, find a thin box called "River Lee / Lea, England" and click "show". I've made the description better on the page now. Jamsta (talk) 20:05, 7 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There is also a Lee in Ireland rroddy 16:29, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Several articles on Ireland link to the wrong River Lee. How is ambiguity resolved?


I would also like to know this could be resolved, also should one river be selected above others? surely there shold be a river lee page, hwere user could chouse which river the want to view [similar to other article with dual [or more meanings] [k]

I agree, it seems rather biased/unfair to assume people want to read about the English river. Stifle (talk) 00:57, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, just make a disambiguation page and another article and add things at the top. Cheesypot 23:29, 2 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

History[edit]

Should there be a section of this article about the history of the river lea? Apparently the thames used to join the thames, but there was a landslide at the source or some sort of blockage. which is why in the luton the river is tiny, but there is a load of space the little hills, probably where the river used to be. If anyone knows more information, please add it. Cheesypot 23:29, 2 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

New River / River Lee Navigation[edit]

RE fact tag just added - it may be my reading of the para - which suggests a little crafting may be called for - or there may be genuine confusion here. What I see is a suggestion that RLN is now called the New River, which it isn't they're different. On a more general note, it would be most helpful to have more clarity between this article and the RLN page to make it aboslutely clear what the link is bwteen the two. Are the lower reaches properly termed RLN or is that another way of describing it? hjuk (talk) 14:28, 3 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Water for the New River is taken from the upper reaches of the River Lee. The RLN is the canalised section of river below that, where the flow of water needs to be controlled to allow navigation. A further complication is that below Bow Locks, the river splits into the Bow Back rivers. Somewhere around Tottenham, there are other flood channels and water supply channels that may also cause confusion with the NR. My first reading of the para was that it was clear, but I'll see if I can do something to clarify. Kbthompson (talk) 14:34, 3 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Wow, that was quick! I reread it again and I can see that it does say what it means, but it certianly wasn't clear to me. But maybe I'm thicker than I thought! Also I forgot to say that I followed footnote 4 to the Enfield Council page which doesn't mention the New River; perhaps the page has changed since the footnote was added.
Does the river stop being properly called the River Lee at some point and become RLN or is it 6 of one, half a dozen of the other? hjuk (talk) 14:43, 3 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
They can't even agree the proper name for much of it's length! (Lea, Lee, etc - even Ordnance Survey gets confused). I think the name RLN came into being with the installation of the locks - as barges got bigger, and flow needed to be controlled. It was also to distinguish it from the 'flood channel' and the water supply channels between the King whatever reservoirs in Tottenham. (I'm sure someone will be along to correct me). (River Lee rapid rebuttal unit?) Kbthompson (talk) 14:51, 3 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Suggested move to River Lea[edit]

I propose this article should be moved to River Lea, while mentioning in the introduction the variant spelling, Lee Navigation, Parliament, etc. It would recognise the wider occurrence of the name "Lea" (eg. Leamouth, Lea Bridge, Lea Valley), and solve the ambiguity vs. the Irish river. best, Sunil060902 (talk) 10:21, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As a Hertfordian, I too prefer the Lea spelling, but bear in mind the official park authority for the area is called the "Lee Valley Park Authority" [1]. I think this would have some bearing on it. Jamsta (talk) 10:42, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sadly, Lee is the official name - established by Act of Parliament. I believe both names appear on ordinance survey maps - but for different parts of the River. (Lee applies to the canalised parts of the river). Certainly when I was drag'd up, around the lower reaches, we always called it the Lea; and I think that's what the geography teacher called it. So, the original name lives on long after its official excision.
I think we're stuck with the official name, with a redirect from Lea. Particularly as the Lee passes through the Olympic site. Kbthompson (talk) 11:07, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That said, reviewing some of the Olympic Park material, it now refers to it as the River Lea. I think the status quo should be maintained at the moment, but if this continues, we may need to revisit the naming of this article. Renaming would create about 100 redirects. These need to be dealt with at the same time as any page move. Kbthompson (talk) 12:10, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Can an Act of Parliament dictate the name of a river (as distinct from the Navigation)? Shades of Académie française! I agree with Sunil060902 that the Lea spelling is more widespread in the real world, Lee generally only used for the Navigation and the Park Authority. However I'm not sure a move solves the ambiguity with Ireland, as the 'official' spelling will still need to be linked as a redirect or whatever. Pterre (talk) 15:36, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Both 'Lea' and 'Lee' are used for the river - just check any OS-based map or street map, and frequently the river will be referred to as 'River Lea / Lee' or 'River Lee or Lea'. Neither takes precedence over the other as I see it so I don't see any logic in a move for the sake of it when the content will remain exactly as it is at present; reflecting that both names are and have been in current use both legally and socially. --AlisonW (talk) 20:03, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The OS simply recognises the fact that officialdom says Lee while the rest of us say Lea. Have a good look at the same maps and see if you can find any Lee- place names anywhere between Leagrave and Leamouth. All my serious sources on geography, geology, archaeology etc refer to the Lea Valley, never the Lee Valley - a random example is Jim Lewis's London's Lea Valley, Phillimore 1999, ISBN 1-86077-100-9. There are numerous rivers/streams called Lee. There is only one River Lea. Pterre (talk) 22:12, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The purpose of Wikipedia is not to be the arbiter on placenames, but as you ask. A quick look shows the "Lee Valley Park" and the "Lee Valley Footpath", for example. The latter follows the course of the "River Lee or Lea" whilst the "Lea Valley Walk" on the opposite (West) side of Hackney Marsh runs alongside the "River Lee Navigation"! Both are in use, and that usage is (quite clearly!) messed up in practice, but that is not a reason to change things here. What about the Lee Valley Athletics Centre, Lee Valley Youth Hostel, and many many more. It is not for us to change usage. --AlisonW (talk) 23:27, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
One additional thing. "officialdom says Lee while the rest of us say Lea" is a straw man. Apart from that being WP:OR it is self-selecting. I live not that far away and regular cross the area visiting friends or or on the North London Line going to Stratford, and I've always used "River Lee" as the primary name. What you use isn't material; what the reference sources say is, and OS use *both*. --AlisonW (talk) 23:29, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hey Alison this is a talk page, flippancy is allowed! So you don't use the Lea Valley Lines or pass the former Lea Bridge railway station as you pass through Lea Bridge on your way to Stratford in the Lower Lea Valley then? ;-) I'm not disputing that both spellings are used, and I've already said I don't see much point in moving the article, because the Lee spelling is official in some contexts so would still have to be DABed. The real issue is which is most common, my point being that we should go with that, not with an act of parliament. Note that OS tend (I haven't checked exhaustively) to call it "Lea or Lee", not vice versa. I dare say the decision to use 'Lee' for the park in the late 60s has led to a degree of drift in that direction since. To speculate wildly, the famous Lee-Enfield may have confused matters further - although made on the river, this was named after James Paris Lee. My opinion of common usage (which, as you say, has no more weight than anyone else's) is based on my experience over 40 years or so which includes studying geography and geology at school a couple of miles away (and Uni elsewhere), living in Edmonton and running along the towpath daily, studying and working as a town planner in north London, being a continued member of a local history society whose publications often take in the area, and taking a keen interest in the geography, geology, industrial history of the Lea Valley. Within this context, in my reading of serious references across these fields (one of which I threw in at random simply to note the spelling used in its title), I hardly ever come across the spelling Lee except for the Lee Navigation and the Lee Valley Park Authority (which are defined by acts of parliament) and of course offshoots related to them such as the athletics centre. All long-established place and road names use Lea or Ley, never (but I'm willing to be proved wrong) Lee. Pterre (talk) 18:37, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
For historic interest (go on, prop up those eyelids) and slightly more exhaustively: On older OS maps only "Lea" is used for both the river and navigation. This is true of One Inch 1st Ed, 4th Ed 'Popular', 5th Ed (see St Albans sheet of 1937) and 6th Ed 'New Popular' (Popular and New Popular both available on-line). Also on large scale plans - see for example the Godfrey Edition reprint of the 1:2,500, "Pickett's Lock 1894" sheet. The first use of "Lee" I have spotted so far is my 1964 copy of One Inch 7th Series sheet 161. This consistently uses "River Lea or Lee" and "River Lee Navigation". Coincidentally it is roughly contemporaneous with the Civic Trust conference report on the proposed park. Do I have a point? Not really, just don't rely too heavily on OS maps when it comes to spellings. Oh, p.s. my better half points out a school geography text book (she's a librarian, can't help it poor dear) written by two teachers at her Lea Valley alma mater The Latymer School (Luxon D.G. & Morris J.A., The British Isles in map and diagram, Nelson, 1966), which refers repeatedly and exclusively to the Lea Valley. Pterre (talk) 23:01, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I always known the River as Lea beacuse Lea Bridge in Walthamstow were the river goes past as I lived in the area on the Lea Valley Line (the Chingford branch) Also Lea Bridge the former station & Lea Bridge the areaLikelife (talk) 13:28, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
See also River Lee - Our River - London's Waterway Partnership and Enfield Council! Kbthompson (talk) 13:39, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well quite.. a publicly funded educational outfit which has apparently spelled millennium incorrectly on its front page since 7th Jan 2001. Nuff sed? Pterre (talk) 20:50, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I see they've corrected it now. Pterre (talk) 18:52, 27 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Hi everyone, sorry for completely ignoring this talk for three months, but I still think River Lea looks better than River Lee (England). How important is the Irish river out of interest? best, Sunil060902 (talk) 13:50, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
One of the more important rivers in Ireland, flowing as it does through the second city in the Republic, Cork. It would certainly be preferable to have its article at River Lee rather than that page being a disambiguation page. zoney ♣ talk 12:41, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So two years on and the disambiguation still exists? best, Sunil060902 (talk) 22:45, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with you (as set out at nodding-off length above). Anyone care to vote on this? Pterre (talk) 12:32, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You could suggest RM. Simply south...... 00:09, 25 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Jan 2011 move[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Vegaswikian (talk) 20:05, 2 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]


River Lee (England) → River Lea — The discussion above was never concluded so let's have another so we can sort this out. Anyway, disambiguation and historical reasons. Am i doing this at the right time? Simply south...... 13:03, 26 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support More familiar name and bracketless Motmit (talk) 13:36, 26 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Ditto Pterre (talk) 14:24, 26 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support because that's what I have always known it as and its bracketless. Likelife (talk) 16:36, 26 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I've always known it as the Lea. Although it appears that both are commonly used, an available unbracketed name is clearly preferable. —WFC— 16:52, 26 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strongly oppose. Regardless of the fact that two names are in common usage, the official name is "Lee", as per all those "Welcome to the Lee Valley Park" signs along its length. This would purely be a move-for-the-sake-of-moving; it would solve no problem at all, since the redirects would still have to exist at every use of "Lee". Since the section that flows through the Olympic site—which is where the majority of readers will come from, over the next couple of years—is undoubtedly "Lee", renaming would cause more confusion, not less. – iridescent 17:10, 26 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. I don't really want to !vote because I don't know which name we should use but we should go for the most commonly known name rather than an undisambiguated title just for the sake of removing the disambiguator. Using Google is difficult because I can't be sure the results all refer to this river. However, on my OS maps it says "River Lea or Lee" and as Lea comes first maybe that's an indication. The maps also say things like "Upper Lea Valley Walk". Either way, there will still be redirects so it won't matter too much. AnemoneProjectors 17:35, 26 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment (after ec) - what is the official name? I looked on the Ordnance Survey map of the source here and it lists both names "River Lea or Lee". I support using the official name, assuming there is one and only one. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 17:38, 26 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • The official name is undoubtedly "Lee". The issue is that, especially in Hertfordshire, most people use the older spelling (resulting in such contortions as "between the new course of the River Lee and the Old River Lea" in LVRPA press releases). Since the Stratford section is undoubtedly "Lee", and that's the context in which most people will be searching, moving will solve nothing as the dab page at River Lee will be required in either case. – iridescent 18:08, 26 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, but I don't accept that there is an official spelling. The only undisputed fact is that Lee is the official spelling for the Navigation and the Park. Ruhrfisch: As I've previously noted (above), OS originally used only Lea for the river, adding "or Lee" (always in second place) from the 1960s on. Lea Valley and River Lea have in my experience always been used by geographers, geologists, archaeologists, etc. Pterre (talk) 19:17, 26 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
          • As well as the various settlements already mention, there is one more, where the river meets the Thames: Leamouth. Simply south...... 11:09, 31 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I think that is mentioned above somewhere. We also have (within the area where it is claimed Lee may be the official spelling for the river) Lea Road, Hoddesdon; Lea Road, Waltham Cross (and Lea Road Trading Estate); Lea Valley Road, Enfield EN3; Lea Valley High School, Bullsmoor Lane, Enfield; Leaside Road, E5; Leaside Canoe Centre; Lea Bridge Road, E10; Lea Bridge E10; Lower Lea Crossing E14; Lower Lea Valley (spelling as per London Thames Gateway Development Corporation's page "Lower Lea Valley"); Lea Valley Lines... I was toying with the idea of writing a Lea Valley article on the general industrial etc history of the area. I'd be very embarrassed if it ended up being called Lee Valley.Pterre (talk) 14:19, 31 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Regardless of the the actions of the park authorities (which in any case seem ambiguous), we go with the common name. We don't even try to predict which name will prevail. Andrewa (talk) 22:32, 26 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per WP:COMMON. Note that the four "External Links" in the article are unanimous in using "Lea". JonH (talk) 22:37, 26 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per my previous comments in the sections above. best, Sunil060902 (talk) 05:39, 27 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. See also: Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2011_January_25#Category:River_Lea. best, Sunil060902 (talk) 05:52, 27 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Warning to all - Don't get involved with the CFD process. It will just muddy things Motmit (talk) 08:20, 27 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Too late - you have done it now.Motmit (talk) 08:23, 27 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Which was that a reply to? Simply south...... 20:33, 27 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I have always known it as the River Lea for the river and the Lee Navigation for the boating part (with the River Lea often running alongside the navigation), and that's how we called it when I was on IWA committee for that area. As the Lee Valley park came later, it obviously took it's name from the navigation.  Ronhjones  (Talk) 17:48, 30 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - I just want to make the extra note that I hope everyone has read the discussion before this. Simply south...... 11:09, 31 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Good Move[edit]

It seems 80% of articles already linked to Lea rather than Lee, but there are still a number of piped redirects from Lee about. Have made a start, but if any one else wants to have a go...... Motmit (talk) 12:15, 4 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I'll get stuck in, time permitting. Pterre (talk) 14:08, 4 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Polyolbion[edit]

Does this refer to the correct River Lea? I can't think of a Kempton Town (or anything similar) near Leagrave. Pterre (talk) 22:34, 16 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Hi, I just looked up this writer it seems much of his work concentrated on Hertfordshire. The nearest town of a similar spelling is Kempston in Bedfordshire. But, considering the book was written in the 17th century there have been boundary changes over the centuries perhaps.(Northmetpit (talk) 08:21, 17 July 2011 (UTC)).[reply]
    • You are probably right. It doesn't say much for Drayton's geography though - Kempston is in the catchment of the Great Ouse, draining to the Wash! It does not seem to be a very suitable quotation for the River Lea. Pterre (talk) 11:33, 17 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • There is another problem with the section River Lea#In popular culture. The quoted text does not appear in Google's copy of Polyolbion ([2]), but it does occur in The Tale of Two Swannes by William Vallans ([3]). Our article text now links "Kempton towne" to Kempston, but like Northmetpit above, I doubt this because Kempston is miles away from the River Lea and according to its article it did not even have a central village at the time, so why was it called "towne". Instead, I think it was more likely a reference to Kimpton, Hertfordshire. The whole of the description in The Tale of Two Swannes is rather confused (e.g. it seems to say the river passes Brocket Hall before Wheathampstead), and I wonder what is the point of including the quoted text or any other part of the poem. JonH (talk) 13:58, 28 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

More on naming[edit]

Now that the name has been resolved, I notice that the Template:River Lee England remains. Firstly this needs to be moved to Template:River Lea. Secondly its name and title fields need to be altered. In paticular it currently uses a pipe to render River Lea as' River Lee or Lea', which (according to consensus on the main article) should be Lea or Lee. Discuss, or shall I just do it? Pterre (talk) 11:44, 2 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Based on the current naming of the page, those things strike me as non-controversial; if the article is ever renamed again, those elements should again be changed accordingly. —WFC— 12:05, 2 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Please see my proposal here. I don't think we need a dab page in this case. Any thoughts? --John (talk) 21:19, 28 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Alleged predator[edit]

When I went the Lee Valley Country Park. Near Cheshunt station, there was a notice attached to a tree. Where a dog owner, who regularly lets his dog swim, had drowned. The notice was to warn other dog owners. August 2016. I think the location was Fishers Green.

The dog owner who posted the flyer on the free wanted to warn others. As there were no signs....

Coincidence? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.0.166.182 (talk) 20:04, 29 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The alleged predator section is quite whimsical. Love it. XavierItzm (talk) 18:43, 5 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Map/Diagram[edit]

I have added a map/diagram of the river in its upper reaches (source to Hertford). I have added a collapse state so it does not interfere with the layout of the article. A comprehensive map (Template:Lee Navigation Route Map) already exists of the section from Hertford to its mouth on the Thames.The joy of all things (talk) 23:00, 16 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Tollhouse Stream[edit]

Hi. I found this article on German wikipedia Tollhouse Stream. Personally never heard of this water before. Can anyone out there shed some light on it? Northmetpit (talk) 09:46, 11 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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