Talk:Roberto Clemente

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Former good article Roberto Clemente was one of the Sports and recreation good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
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Number of siblings[edit]

The intro states he was the youngest of seven, (ie. he had six siblings). But in Early life it states he had 6 brothers and 1 sister... (seven siblings). Other sources I found on line indicate there were only seven total but I don't know how many were sisters so I deleted one brother.--Xtrump (talk) 20:40, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

whoops! my bad, you are right I just checked his biography and he was the youngest of a total of seven, thus six siblings. - Caribbean~H.Q. 21:24, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Notes prior to GA review[edit]

I was planning on reviewing this article, but I was informed that might be a conflict of interest because I did some copyediting. I think the article is very well done, but I had three concerns:

  1. It's hard to tell if everything it cited. In a few (but not many) places, there is one citation that may cover the previous 3-4 sentences, but it's hard to tell. In addition, the final sentences in "The 1970s" and "Death in airplane accident" don't have citations.
  2. I thought that a "Personal life" section would be a nice place to put the information about his wedding, wife and children. It just seems out of place in the middle of baseball statistics.
  3. The article has little information about 1966-1969. That seems like a lot to skip over. A few sentences there would help.

Hope this helps with the review. GaryColemanFan (talk) 23:46, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

I considered creating a separate personal life section but though that it might be a bit small so I organized it chronologically. I will be able to come along the biography that was used to source parts of this article tommorow, the book can reference the mayority if not the entirety of the article so if you can list where you think a reference is needed (possibly by using the {{Fact}} template) I can find one for there. The book has some material for 1966-1968 but not particular detail of 1969, but I think there is enough there to warrant a few sentences. Thanks for the tips. - Caribbean~H.Q. 02:33, 10 January 2008 (UTC)


GA Review and why article is on hold[edit]

This is my review for the article’s GA nomination; I hope you find it both comprehensive and helpful. I’ve broken it separate parts; initial comments, assessment, required changes for passage, and suggestions.

Initial Comments: The current references are formatted extremely well, with the kind of effort and detail rarely found in other Wikipedia articles; excellent work!! The introduction is well written, although I’m disappointed that this article wasn’t copy-edited more thoroughly before I reviewed it.


GA review (see here for criteria)
  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a (prose): b (MoS):
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.
    a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects): b (focused):
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    Fair representation without bias:
  5. It is stable.
    No edit wars etc.:
  6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
    a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
  7. Overall:
    Pass/Fail:

Changes required for GA passage:

  1. add a career statistics section much like the one in Lee Smith’s article (except use Clemente’s hitting stats of course)Yes check.svg Done
  2. Please add the Persondata templateYes check.svg Done
  3. wikilink “Glove Glove Awards” in the second paragraph of the introduction Yes check.svg Done
  4. the second paragraph of the intro states, “…the only exception to the mandatory five-year post-retirement waiting period….” Other players, including Darryl Kile, have had their waiting periods waived. So, to be accurate, the sentence should read something like, “and the only current Hall of Famer whose mandatory five year waiting period was waived.” Yes check.svg Done
  5. The sections “Pittsburgh Pirates”, “The 1960s” and “The 1970s” should be level 2 headings under the “Baseball career” section Yes check.svg Done
  6. In the second sentence of the Baseball career section, change “to the team’s starting lineup on his second season” to “to the team’s starting lineup the following season.” (it sounds much better that way). Yes check.svg Done
  7. In the next sentence after that, change “During this season he batted in the team’s lead off position and his average was .288” to read “During this season he hit .288 as the team’s leadoff hitter.” Yes check.svg Done
  8. In the second to last sentence of the “Baseball career” section, remove the space between the period and the “n’ in Max Macon.Yes check.svg Done
  9. In the first sentence of the “Pittsburgh Pirates” section, change “…double header involving the Brooklyn Dodgers” to “…double header against the Brooklyn Dodgers.”Yes check.svg Done
  10. In the next sentence after that, change “…racial tension between himself and the local media and some of his teammates” to “racial tension between himself, the local media, and even some of his teammates.Yes check.svg Done
  11. reuse citation number ten immediately after Clemente’s quote “I don’t believe in color.” All direct quotations should always be immediately followed by the source material it came from. In this instance, simply format the first part of citation as <ref name=”color”>, or however you want to name that particular reference, and then put the text <ref name=”color”/> after the period where that quote is.Yes check.svg Done
  12. In the first sentence of the second paragraph of the “pirates” section, remove the space after the word "season" and put it in front of the next word, as in, “During the middle of the season, Clemente was involved in a car accident…”Yes check.svg Done
  13. Change “this led to him losing several games…” to “this caused him to miss several games…”Yes check.svg Done
  14. In the 1960s section, start a new paragraph after the sentence that begins, “He added strength by gaining ten pounds….”Yes check.svg Done
  15. In the 1960's section, the article says that the Pirates had their first winning season in 1959. That was 1958 - they finished 84-70. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.158.175.136 (talk) 03:01, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
  16. Put in another paragraph break before the sentence about 1961 Spring Training.Yes check.svg Done
  17. ”With the American League was leading the game with a score of 4-3 in the tenth inning, Clemente scored a double that gave the National League a score of 5-4 and decided the game.” This poorly written sentence needs to be re-phrased along the lines of, “With the American League ahead 4-3 in the tenth inning, Clemente hit a double that gave the National League a decisive 5-4 win.”Yes check.svg Done
  18. Place yet another paragraph break before the sentence, “Following the season, he traveled to Puerto Rico along with Orlando Cepeda….”Yes check.svg Done
  19. Another paragraph break before the sentence, “This condition limited his role with the Pirates in the first half of the 1965 season….”Yes check.svg Done
  20. Under the 1970s section, change the sentence that reads, “during which he received a scroll with 300,000 signatures compiled on Puerto Rico…” to “…scroll with 300,000 signatures complied in Puerto Rico….”Yes check.svg Done
  21. ”His last game ever was at Cincinnati's Riverfront Stadium in the 5th game of the playoff series.” Please type out the word “fifth.” In most situations, it’s best to type out numbers ten and under.Yes check.svg Done

Suggestions for future improvement (not required for GA passage):

  1. Use quote boxes to try and incorporate more quotes from Clemente and fellow players or managers; not only would it make the article more interesting, it would also be a nice way to break up the text more.
  2. This article is more than a little dependent on material from the 1988 book by Paul Walker. Consider trying to get a hold of other Clemente books and citing info from them, such as “Clemente: The Passion and Grace of Baseball’s Last Hero” by David Maraniss.
    1. There must be a lot of overlap between the two books. I made several updates to this article in 2007 based on content in the Maranis book that at the time was in dispute on this page. Not knowing how to add references I simply noted the references in the talk page. If you'd like to add some references to the Maranis book, there are at least 3 mentioned on this talk page. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Roberto_Clemente&oldid=148352852 Mike padilla (talk) 05:18, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
  3. Consider shortening the title of the “Baseball career” section to simply “Career.”
  4. For further ideas or any future formatting issue, refer to Lee Smith’s article, as it one of the few baseball player article to have already reached FA status.
  5. Under Career Highlights and Awards, his four batting titles (1961, 1964, 1965, 1967) should be added. While active, he was best known for winning batting titles.

When all of the required changes have been addressed, leave a note on my talk page, & I’ll considering passing the article. If all the changes aren’t addressed within seven days, the article will fail, in which case it will have to be re-nominated. For anyone else reading this review, please consider reviewing an article or two at GAN to help with our current backlog of nominations. Thanks for your contribution to Wikipedia thus far, and good luck with this article in the future! Monowi (talk) 04:38, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

I think the points have been attended, about the biography I will try to find another one to compliment this one but I relly heavily on what appears on e-bay since my personal life leaves me with little free time during the day, I will see what can be done as well as working with Gary's suggestions. Thanks for reviewing. - Caribbean~H.Q. 05:52, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

GA Review Passed[edit]

After reviewing the revisions, this article meets the Good Article requirements of Wikipedia. Your excellent work on the article of one of baseball's most important figures is an invaluable contribution to Wikipeida; thanks! I hope you continue to improve the article all the way up to Featured Article status. All the best, Monowi (talk) 07:19, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks to you for providing such a detailed review, cheers. - Caribbean~H.Q. 07:35, 10 January 2008 (UTC)


Former Major League Baseball right fielder?[edit]

Somebody is usually referred to as a former something-or-other when he is no longer that something-or-other due to some circumstance other than death. So if Clemente was a right fielder at the time of his death, referring to him as a former Major League Baseball right fielder is misleading. Also, isn't saying he was a professional baseball player and a Major League Baseball right fielder a bit redundant as the latter implies the former? --Raaronson (talk) 13:39, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

The former is hair-splitting. He is no longer a baseball player, at least not on this earth. The latter is a good point. Keep the MLB, lose the redundant "professional". Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 13:46, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

"Scored" vs. "hit" (a minor point)[edit]

The section discussing Clemente's death notes that he held a Pirates record for most triples "scored" in a game and that he is the only player to have "scored" a walk-off inside-the-park grand slam. "Hit" would probably be more appropriate in those places than "scored." Villageidiom71990 (talk) 07:02, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Yep. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 07:07, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm frankly skeptical of the claim that anyone has ever hit a "walk-off inside-the-park" home run (let alone a grand slam), since (a) I doubt the runners would continue chugging around the bases after the runner on third scored; and (b) I think the game is technically over once that runner crosses the plate (assuming everyone else has advanced one base and can't be forced out); the hit would therefore officially be just an RBI single, I think.71.240.159.90 (talk) 21:44, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

If it's the last of the 9th at Forbes Field, and the Pirates are down by 3, and the bases are full ,and Roberto hits a long gapper, everybody runs until they score, and that's a "walk-off" grand-slammer; although the term wasn't in use then. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 22:30, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
There is a problem with the citation, in that it gives no specifics, so it's not a very good citation. However, it was easy to find on Google [1] and now that we have the date and the facts, "On July 25, 1956, Roberto Clemente hit a walk-off inside-the-park grand slam in the ninth inning to defeat the Cubs, 9-8, at Forbes Field," it's easy to find on Retrosheet [2] which unfortunately doesn't confirm that it was inside the park, but at least confirms it was a game-ending slam. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 22:36, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
He hit it off Jim Brosnan, and this writeup has a little more info: [3] Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 22:40, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Presidential Medal of freedom[edit]

The citation for the Medal of freedom is a bad link. It goes to a search page. I would fix it but right now I don't have the time. Lycaenion (talk) 00:48, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

First Hispanic MVP?[edit]

Ted Williams was half Mexican. He won the MVP. So is Clemente really the first Hispanic MVP? 71.184.189.193 (talk) 03:53, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

You are confusing "Hispanic" with "Latino" (i.e. "Latin American" or "of Latin American heritage"), Ted Williams was Latino, but he was not "Hispanic" (i.e. hispanoparlante or "Spanish-speaker") the American media has been mixing those two for a while. - Caribbean~H.Q. 22:33, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
Then apparently, so has the US Census Bureau, dictionaries, and encyclopediae. "The terms "Hispanic" or "Latino" refer to persons who trace their origin or descent to Mexico, Puerto Rico, Cuba, Spanish speaking Central and South America countries, and other Spanish cultures. Origin can be considered as the heritage, nationality group, lineage, or country of the person or the person's parents or ancestors before their arrival in the United States. People who identify their origin as Hispanic or Latino may be of any race." According to the standard definitions, "Hispanic" refers to origin, not language. --174.125.74.197 (talk) 21:04, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Number 13[edit]

Clemente wore #13 in his rookie year (source: "Now Batting, Number...: The Mystique, Superstition, and Lore of Baseball's Uniform Numbers" by Jack Looney. New York: Black Dog & Leventhal Publishers, Inc. 2006. ISBN 1-57912-575-1, p. 84). He later chose #21: the number of letters in "Roberto Clemente Walker" (source: "Clemente!" by Kal Wagenheim. New York: Praeger Publishers, 1973, p. 54). Psalm 119:105 (talk) 08:00, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Roberto Clemente Night[edit]

"Roberto Clemente Night" is July 24, 1970. Because "Last night, to honor another Puerto Rican hero, the bank sponsored a live color telecast to Puerto Rico of "Roberto Clemente Night" in Pittsburgh . ...July 25, 1970" [4] --KANESUE 06:59, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Starting pitcher?[edit]

At the end of the second paragraph, the article says Clemente won the 1960 World Series as a starting pitcher. Really?!? P. Kalina 69.72.29.224 (talk) 12:15, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Fixed. It originally said "starter", and a subsequent editor got a little confused. I changed it to read "starting player", although I'm not so sure that's the best way to say it. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 12:24, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Base on balls ("Walker"!)[edit]

So, if his name is actually Walker, why's he usually called Clemente? TREKphiler hit me ♠ 03:36, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Walker is his second last name, we don't use the same format employed by anglo countries. - Caribbean~H.Q. 02:55, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
Thx for clearing that up. (No cmt on points below... They are interesting, tho. ;D ) TREKphiler any time you're ready, Uhura 03:34, 27 November 2009 (UTC) (But why change the header? :( )
If I've got this right, Clemente was his father's name and Walker was his mother's name, and men (women also?) tend to go by their fathers' surnames. Somewhat of an aside, someone Hispanic once told me that if you have only one surname, that's kind of a bad thing, because it means you don't know who your father is. Is that true? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:06, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
You are correct, Clemente is his father's surname and Walker is his mother's surname. And no, men don't use only one surname. We actually keep both of the parent's surname in the first generarion (sons & daughters), the second generation (grandchildren) is the one that drops the mother's surname regardless of gender. - Caribbean~H.Q. 03:14, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
If a child was born to an unmarried woman, would it have only one surname instead of two? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:31, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
Well, if the father refused to recognize him/her and the case wasn't pursued further, then yes. But that is generally resolved with time, since stepfathers usually recognize the child as their own. - Caribbean~H.Q. 03:34, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
The articles states that when Clemente and Orlando Cepeda returned to Puerto RIco after the 1961 season, Puerto Ricans were celebrating "the first season in which both leagues in Major League Baseball were led in batting average by Puerto Rican players." In fact, the American League batting champion in 1961 was Detroit Tigers' first baseman Norm Cash, who was a white Texan.

Perhaps the confusion here is caused by the fact that Cepeda had led the National League in home runs, thus making 1961 the first season in which Puerto Ricans led a league in two major offensive categories.- 06:10, 30 December 2009 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jososen (talkcontribs)

OK, it is noted here that "Clemente Walker" is the Hispanic way of displaying last names. Could someone put in a note at the top of the article to that effect? I have seen such a note elsewhere, but haven't looked into the format of it (so I am making such insertion myself). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.63.16.82 (talk) 18:58, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Why ignore his throwing arm & base running?[edit]

In a January 31, 2011, article by Robert Knapel in the Bleacher Report, the US's 4th largest sports media site with 20 million monthly readers, Roberto Clemente was ranked first among the "The 25 Best Outfield Arms in MLB History." <ref="http://bleacherreport.com/articles/590862-mlb-power-rankings-the-25-best-outfield-arms-in-mlb-history#/articles/590862-mlb-power-rankings-the-25-best-outfield-arms-in-mlb-history/page/26"/ref>— Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.55.87.93 (talk) 02:36, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Roberto Clemente, arguably, had the one of strongest and most accurate throwing arms in the history of baseball. Probably the best of his era and maybe the best of all-time. But certainly worthy of mention. His base running was also very aggressive and very effective. Again, he stood out as perhaps as good a base runner as Ty Cobb. Everyone understands what a great human being he was and why the tragedy of his untimely (and heroic) death are remembered. But this seems to dominate the page at the expense of his outstanding baseball skills. Let's not forget that Clemente had exceptional skills on the field that we have not seen since his passing. Tim McCarver once remarked that while some right fielders are blessed with rifle arms, that Clemente "had a howitzer".

His defensive play in the 1971 World Series (especially the catch and throw off of the deep fly by Paul Blair) are legendary in baseball circles and may be one of the best that baseball has ever seen in the post-season, ranking with Brooks Robinson's play at 3rd base in the 1970 series. I suggest a section regarding his exceptional skills be added, with a focus on his remarkable throwing arm and base running skills. Many experts rank him as having the best throwing arm of any outfielder in history (power & accuracy), and perhaps one of the best in history in terms of all-around base running skills (running, sliding, and intelligence on the bases). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dayofdays (talkcontribs) 00:31, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

In the 1988 version of Bill James's Historical Baseball Almanac, Bill James states that Clemente had the best throwing arm of all time. This should be cited. Source: The Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract, by Bill James, Villard Books, 1988, p. 236. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.158.175.136 (talk) 02:56, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from Stevehcollins, 20 April 2010[edit]

{{editsemiprotected}} Please change "the first Hispanic to" to "the first Hispanic player to" in the second paragraph, as this reflects the more culturally appropriate use of the term "Hispanic" as an adjective rather than a noun.

Stevehcollins (talk) 07:49, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Done Welcome and thanks for pointing that out. I also changed a similar use later in the article. Celestra (talk) 13:47, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

What was being foreseen for 1973?[edit]

Was it being foreseen that Clemente was going to try to play again in the 1973 major-league season? He and Bill Mazeroski were the last remaining Pirate players from the 1960 World Series champions, and Mazeroski, according to Retrosheet site, was released in later Oct. 1972 (ending playing career). There is no note about Clemente after the 1972 season & playoffs, but as you know he was killed in plane crash on New Year's Eve. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.63.16.82 (talk) 16:48, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

The tone of this article[edit]

DavidESpeed, I appreciate that you are adding some good details. However, your prose writing is inappropriate for an encyclopedia. I've tried to get this point across to you before. There are several phrases I can see without reading too deeply that need to be rewritten, such as, but not limited to, "This newfound strength and freedom from pain would manifest itself dramatically on May 17, 1959", "Evidently, Clemente had now hit bottom, because from this point forward, he turned things around with a vengeance", and "after more than a decade of frustration". If this isn't taken care of, I'll have to alert other editors and tag this article. Please read WP:Tone for starters. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:20, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

I have flagged the "Baseball career" section is riddled with issues that bring serious question to whether this article can remain at GA status.
"(i.e.)" is found several times throughout the section.
The section switches between referencing the article's subject as "Roberto" and "Clemente."
The May 17 home run description does not match the tone of an encyclopedia. Get to the point. Would Clemente be the best arbiter of distance, especially considering he wouldn't have been able to see outside the ballpark where the ball landed? "Just about" dead center? Well, is it or isn't it? If it's two feet from center, say "two feet from center." If it's not known or sources (or the sources used) can't be precise, then it's questionable to even put the description in the article. "Wrigley Field residents"? If it is meant former ball players or announcers who have spent much time in the park or who have lengthy experiences at seeing home runs fly out of the ball park over the decades, then state them as such.
Skill sets: who reveres Clemente's arm as his "most widely revered asset?" State it. A "field day?" If it is meant a great day, stats-wise, then list the stats. Compare and contrast this with other rookies in the same era, or other Pirates. Or provide quotes from coaches or media members who've evaluated talent before or have a record as a critic. Let the reader decide if he had "a field day." A "great catch?" According to whom? If the scene isn't described to the reader, then how is one to come to the conclusion the catch was "great"?
What is the "LBBPR"? Acronyms/jargon should be explained to the written upon first use. Zepppep (talk) 22:15, 23 August 2012 (UTC)
This is the exact problem I mentioned a month ago. Unfortunately, I did not have the time to keep up with these edits. We need to fix this. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:30, 23 August 2012 (UTC)
Yes, it's been exactly one month since you first brought edits from this particular editor into question. Since I have taken the time to point out specifics, I'm hoping to see an improvement. Otherwise, for such a large section that is in question, I don't see how this article can remain at GA. The issues seem to have exacerbated. Zepppep (talk) 22:38, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Hi, folks.

Sorry for whatever disruption I've caused, & especially 4 leaving u hanging (&, perhaps, 4 not including requisite # of colons B4 this message); various distractions, Wiki & otherwise (esp. one ongoing - & mounting - family health crisis) have prevented me from following this up & giving the attention it deserves. @M: I thought I had addressed some of your previously expressed concerns, and have certainly - if ineptly - aspired in subsequent entries to a more encyclopedic style. Also, not really cognizant of Wiki protocol (e.g. this page), I guess I'd simply assumed that any remaining stylistically inappropriate passages would be rewritten w/ or w/o my participation, whereas specific documentation requests would be brought to my attention. Speaking of which, u have my attention now. So I thank u both 4 the heads up &, @Z, thanks esp. 4 the specific points; those r invaluable, both here & in the article itself.

BTW, right off the bat, re LBBPR (Liga de Béisbol Profesional de Puerto Rico aka "Professional Baseball League of Puerto Rico," which, ironically, has recently been renamed "Liga de Béisbol Profesional Roberto Clemente") and shifts from Clemente to Roberto: both of these were present B4 I got here, and given the GA status, I assumed they were WIKI-appropriate.

As 4 the other points contained herein, some of that's addressed in the "Pittsburgh Pirates" subsection rewrite I'm already working on, so I'll just let u respond 2 those, as necessary. Since I may not get to the Wrigley HR portion rewrite today, I'll address these here:

Re Wrigley & 'dead center,' I will gladly defer 2U on the appropriate terminology (obviously, 'dead center' itself MEANS 'just about dead center,' or, more precisely, 'as close to the exact midpoint of the outfield as can be determined by the naked eye'), but my not insignificant point in highlighting the direction is to counteract the prevailing misconception about this most frequently cited of RC moonshots - namely that the ball was hit 2 left center, extrapolated from the mistaken characterization, 'centerfield scoreboard,' as opposed to what, as various photos from behind home plate make clear, is actually a right-centerfield scoreboard (making 4 a HR hit 2 'just about dead center,' or whatever).

Re RC's vantage point; in a conversation w/ Pittsburgh Press following his 6/5/66 500-footer off Houston's Turk Farrell (itself paced off, immediately after RC hit it, by his friend Phil Dorsey), RC reminisced about some of his longest shots, informing Biederman that, after the game, he had walked off the distance from the fence to the back of Wrigley Field, under the bleachers and, at the the exit, been shown where the ball had landed.

Anyway, better stop here, or I'll never get the actual work done. Thanks again. DavidESpeed (talk) 20:53, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

No worries. We all get busy with our lives outside of WP. It's been a month since a specific mention was made to the article's talk page, and trying to inform via reverts and edit summaries has apparently not gotten the trick done. If you or any other editor (several of which I've informed of GA reassessment) don't get the changes done, that doesn't mean the article can't become GA once again in the future. It means, however, that for the time being, unless the issues are addressed, I (and Muboshgu, and we'll see if others agree) don't see this article remaining at GA status for the time being. (I wasn't stating the examples of issues found were the result of any one editor in particular but found the current thread to be suitable for the items I wished to hash out (I don't know which editor and when LBBPR and switches from first name to last name were implemented in the article; it could've been the result of a not-so-perfect GA review, changes could've been made after the article obtained GA, etc.; the point is they are present, an editor (me) has pointed them out, and along with all the other issues, this article no longer meets GA IMHO)).
The content added by one editor, even if it not to the standards listed by WP (and even more to the point, GA), are free to be edited by anyone. However, editors may find themselves receiving more attention if their edits are not up to par of an article with GA status, as likely there are at least a handful of dedicated editors involved with the article (I would recommend reading up on how an article obtains GA status and article criteria for receiving such). If you, DavidESpeed, wish to work on the items specifically in the section "Baseball career" (which is rather large but where I found the most number of issues with the article), go for it. Your swift changes might well impact the outcome of GA reassessment and allow the article to remain a GA. If much of the writing is from your keystrokes, then I would say you have even more of a duty to try and clean it up, as essentially it is being said "the information is good, but the writing isn't, so unless it's fixed, it's gonna be removed." I think what Mubuoshgu was saying was there is some good information, stories, anecdotes, etc., but the style in which it was written is where the concerns are raised (we then have to weigh the good vs. the "bad," in which case the article was GA before the additions so I'd reckon many would vote the changes were "bad"). The writing from an author for a biography, such as Maraniss, may at times be at odds from what WP would desire. Additionally, because encyclopedic entries are much shorter than chapter books, drier language is perfectly acceptable "for example, he had a "field day" vs. "he had 2 singles, a triple, a stolen base and an assist." Less word count vs. a chapter book forces us to use more specific language. Since encyclopedias aim to provide a capsule of knowledge to the reader, they should also be written as free from bias as possible, discount trivial mentions, etc.
Before an editor goes and starts making significant changes to an article which has GA status, I would very much recommend them to read policies and guidelines before making widespread additions. It is up to other editors to choose from any number of ways of dealing with the edits (reverting, educating, group discussion, being specific, fixing and editing themselves, etc.). From your response, it seems you're interested in improving the content so that is indeed a very good thing, as there are several valuable details you've offered into the article. Zepppep (talk) 01:15, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
In the "Pittsburgh Pirates" subsection, there is one sentence (beginning with "Whereas the winless Bucs...") which has no fewer than 14 sources. See Wikipedia:Citing sources#Bundling citations and Wikipedia:Citation overkill. (I would also change "Bucs" to "Pirates." Team nicknames are something that may appear in a column or newspaper article (esp a local publication), but does not belong on WP. Indians should be such, not "Tribe;" Yankees, not "Yanks" or "Evil Empire"; Cubs, not "Northsiders" or "Cubbies." Zepppep (talk) 12:39, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
Pittsburgh Pirates section:
  • Likely needs to be organized with a subsection of "1950s" or something, otherwise the reader may get the idea from the other subsection headings that he did not play for the Pirates in the 60s and 70s.
  • "During the off season..." which offseason?
  • "Santurce Crabbers" why is the team name in quotes?
  • "star player" POV, nothing there to qualify this statement either
  • "several difficult seasons" ambiguous; quantify "difficult" and simply state the facts. Also, talking about the period before Clemente played with PIT might be better to place before his rookie season, otherwise the reader may get the impression Clemente had a role in seasons in which he never actually played for the Pirates. If it's not desired to talk about the years pre-Clemente, then simply focus on those years.
  • "he joined the USMC Reserves for six years" is it meant the first year of a six-year stint in the reserves? Otherwise a reader may be led to think he gave up baseball for a while whilst serving.
  • "final half inning of a doublheader" is the reader to take this as the top of the ninth inning of the second game?
  • "he'd seen" contraction
  • why is Hornsby's position mentioned in quotes? is that something that might be disputed? can likely remove the quotes from that fact and instead just use them for direct quotes.
  • Hornsby is mentioned as "batting coach batting coach"
  • why is the "counterproductive batting tics..." mention linked to this article?
  • "that let him get away" still appears POV-y
  • "sad to say, law enforcement" wording straight out of an opinion piece
  • it's mentioned he was quick to become a fan favorite, then the article seems to lay out an argument that he faced racism in Pittsburgh. So are the fans' feelings so much different than their fellow Pittsburghers, or were those road fans, or just what exactly? When local media is mentioned, is this to mean all local media, just newspaper writers, just sportswriters, just certain sportwriters? How was he treated by media members outside of Pittsburgh, or say, national media members? This would likely need expansion to prevent confusing the reader. Also, are the Clemente quotes within that para from the same era, or said many years after his rookie season? Also, the subject should be referred to by his last name, not simply his first.
  • "the previous December" when, exactly?
Zepppep (talk) 05:46, 8 October 2012 (UTC)


Reverting to a stable revivision[edit]

Well, since the additional week requested was not sufficient and due to the fact that the edited version that is in my PC is still, in my opinion, quite inferior to the original GA version, I think that we should revert to a date where the article was at least remotely GAish. I have checked all of the new content and it is, excluding a few lines, mostly redundant. The original structure was also disrupted by this new content, in the process breaking the prose's flow. It is better to identify the new material and bring it here for discussion, filtering it before being included again. - Caribbean~H.Q. 00:36, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

That being said, if most of these issues were product of the work of a single user (as stated above), the issue should have been discussed at WikiProject Baseball before going for a GAR. Any experienced user would have noticed the tone problems and a consensus would have been reached regarding the content's inclusion. - Caribbean~H.Q. 00:49, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
Reverting to the same date the article became a GA is certainly a possibility. There was ample time for this to be discussed once GAR came about. However, there are editors who feel the additions to the article have been good but not necessarily the way in which they've been added. So I suppose it's up to the community at-large to determine if the additions are worthy of keeping and editors being bold and working to improve the newly-added content, or decide it's all trivial and redundant and not of much value and should simply be deleted. Zepppep (talk) 03:03, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
Even more prose has been added. It appears, by what the editor is adding, that if it has been written down in a book or periodical, he has free rein to include it in a Wiki article. I don't think it's intentional; I think he simply doesn't get it. Here's a short example of the latest tone (the editor's words): "But of all those present at Wrigley that day, it was Clemente himself who would offer by far the most educated guess as to its destination." I did some tightening over the last couple days of the lede and a tagged section, and now the article is being "expanded" again, as the editor called it in the explanation line. AuthorAuthor (talk) 17:49, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
So are you in support of reverting to the version the article was in at the time of GA? Zepppep (talk) 23:17, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
Issues with the tone of this article are popping up again. Also, at 110k and counting, I am starting to have concerns per Wikipedia:Article size. The copious footnotes are not needed. Additionally, footnotes should should WP:NPOV. The long quotes embedded with the references is also becoming a bit overdone. Typically only potentially controversial statements or other text would need to be quoted in the ref; otherwise, that's precisely what the reference section is for. If folks doubt, they can easily go and find (in some cases, click) the source. The first sentence of the 2nd footnote (re: Gehrig) is terribly confusing. NPOV concerns include: "The father of sabremetrics himself...", "we can add to these the many victims of and/or witnesses to Clemente's tape-measure home runs," and others. Additionally, contractions continue to find their way into the article. As many times as an editor has been told contractions are not to be used per WP:MOS, and as many times as they make it in, I have serious WP:OR concerns, or perhaps even WP:Plagiarism. Zepppep (talk) 23:31, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
I haven't given this article a full read recently, but I noticed DavidESpeed has been doing some editing recently. Are his contributions the ones that are worrisome? – Muboshgu (talk) 23:36, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
Holy shit those footnotes are completely out of hand. If it is DavidESpeed's doing, I think we should ask him to stop editing this article. Also, we could bring this to the attention of WP:BASEBALL so the group is aware of what's been happening here. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:40, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
Yes, it is DavidESpeed doing it. And yes, Zepppep, I am in spport of reverting the version to when it became a GA. Enough is enough. You'd think by the growling length of Roberto Clemente's Wiki article that he was king of Puerto Rico instead of a Puerto Rican ballplayer. AuthorAuthor (talk) 23:45, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
We gotta get him to stop. As far as going all the way back to it's GA version, [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Roberto_Clemente&oldid=183345323 this one (never mind the deleted templates), that version is almost five years old. I think we should find the final version before DavidESpeed's first edit and go back to that. – Muboshgu (talk) 00:21, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

DavidESpeed's first edits came on June 6, which I reverted as failing NPOV (how prophetic). He continued at too fast an editing rate for anyone else to stop, so I've boldly reverted the article to the pre-June 6 version. If we can keep David from what he was doing, we could probably get this relisted soon. – Muboshgu (talk) 00:28, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

If an editor wants to expand an article, even one that's at GA status, we all know they're more than free to do so. Editors who edit, however, without adhering to such strong policies as WP:NPOV risk their edits being reverted. I am OK with a rollback if that's what the passers-by also concur with. I say we give this 7 days, similar to how a GAR would go down. In the mean time, the editor (and editors) who made edits in violation of NPOV will have ample time to clean up their edits, as well as defend their edits or future of this article should they decide to do so. (And notice it's not just NPOV concerns here, but also significant article length, reference and footnote sections cleanup, etc.). Zepppep (talk) 08:52, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
And actually I put up the NPOV maintenance tag 2 months ago or so, so editors have had more than enough time to address issues. Zepppep (talk) 08:53, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Off topic some, but similar, DavidESpeed in July created the article Jane_Speed, which has similar NPOV issues. The article says she had a son named David. It appears the Jane Speed article has not yet been reviewed. AuthorAuthor (talk) 21:15, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a memorial. If Jane Speed isn't notable, the page should be taken to AfD. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:05, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
There is one short article from 1946 about a script she sold; other refs are scanned copies of her birth and marriage certificates and other family documents. One other article is about her suing an estate in the 1980s. Appears to not meet notability. However, DavidESpeed complained a while back about my clean-up edits to Zepppep, so I won't be taking it to AfD. AuthorAuthor (talk) 02:28, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
I would probably recommend taking discussions about another article to that article's talk page. And yes, AuthorAuthor, the editor has complained about you but I don't see that from preventing you from taking an article to AfD. We need to use policies, standards, and consensus to help make decisions, not whether a fellow editor may hold a grudge against you (or any other editor) or not. There are lots of admins who have their fair share of those who may not be in their camp; another admin isn't going to care much unless that admin was acting outside the line or being terribly unreasonable. Also, roughly 24 hrs ago I took the decision whether to revert this article to a state it was in when it was at GA status to WPro Baseball. We'll see if that garners any other opinions. Zepppep (talk) 03:25, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
Well said. I'll take the issue to that talk page. I appreciate your input. AuthorAuthor (talk) 04:02, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

12-time All-Star[edit]

Moved to Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Baseball#YahwehSaves: Bagumba (talk) 23:22, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Clemente is an established 12-time NL All-Star, 12 teams for 12 seasons (15 games) not a "15-time All-Star" on 15 teams. Why hasn't anyone corrected this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by YahwehSaves (talkcontribs) 07:50, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Reassessment[edit]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

GA Reassessment[edit]

This discussion is transcluded from Talk:Roberto Clemente/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the reassessment.
I notice that a lot of material has been added since the GA revision, most of it since my last edit to the article. I can do my part, but will need an additional week to do so due to the size of the article. Also, if concrete examples could be listed that would be very helpful. - Caribbean~H.Q. 02:28, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
Specifics have been highlighted on the talk page, GAR, and the use of some tags have been implemented into the article. The largest issues revolve around issues pertaining to WP:NPOV and WP:Words to avoid. Additionally, issues with over-tagging. Haven't seen much progress on the issues highlighted within the past week, so if you're willing to plunge forward, more power to you. Zepppep (talk) 02:46, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
The article has been delisted as a GA. With the significant issues in the "Baseball career" section and lingering POV issues (and NPOV tag), and interest from editors shown but edits not materialized, there was no other choice (I made personal pleas to the top 5 contributing editors (excluding Muboshgu, who had already raised issues)but hopefully the article will one day again become a GA! The article is still very strong in other sections but it can no longer (and should no longer) be used as a model for other editors in trying to ascertain what GA means in the real sense. Zepppep (talk) 00:31, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Baseball career[edit]

The article's biggest weakness is GA point number four. WP:NPOV issues raised more than one month ago have not seen improvement. "Campanis later claimed," "Campanis did not forget," "having achieved some measure of vindication against the team that let him get away," etc. The article suffers fails in 1(b), as there is an abundance of peacock and ambiguous terms ("rookie sensation", "young phenom," "field day," "Wrigley Field residents," etc.). There are minor MoS issues, such as "bio" instead of "biography", improper spacing and "i.e.". There are also formatting minor errors in some references. Zepppep (talk) 22:54, 23 August 2012 (UTC)


The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


Presumed died on New years Eve[edit]

No body was ever found. It is presumed he died December 31,1972. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:D:A500:5A:C541:FE51:D462:E3EC (talk) 05:40, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

What was the flight number of the Douglas DC-7 Clemente chartered for transporting relief to Nicaragua? How did the plane appear to Air Traffic Control at SJU (????????? Flight ###) prior to crashing into the Atlantic Ocean? 72.50.80.240 (talk) 01:30, 28 July 2014 (UTC) Or, what was the plane’s registration number? 72.50.80.20 (talk) 18:21, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Anglicization of Name[edit]

I was an avid baseball fan through Roberto's entire career. I listened on radio and watched on television. I never heard Roberto Clemente referred to as "Bob" or "Robert." It was always "Roberto." I was unaware anyone may have called him anything else, until reading this section. This sounds like a modern day "political correctness" angle or agenda. It holds no purpose or relevance and should be deleted. I vaguely recall hearing "Bobby" once, and thinking the announcer was a red neck or was trying to be cute120.29.72.64 (talk) 08:04, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for noticing and for raising teh point. I removed the claim as it fails WP:V policy. Pointing to a Wikipedia sports magiazine article is not valid sourcing as there is no way to verify the claim. IAE, we don't generalize based on a single claim from a single (alleged) sports writer. Mercy11 (talk) 14:52, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Edits by WikiSoldier86 seeking to specify "U.S." after place of birth[edit]

This subject is under discussion at [5]. Please go THERE if you wish to join the discussion. Mercy11 (talk) 15:10, 23 June 2014 (UTC)