Talk:Roman Catholicism in Ireland

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Removal of template[edit]

I've removed the template "20th century persecutions of the Catholic Church" as it doesn't mntion any Irish Catholic persecutees.86.42.206.248 (talk) 12:31, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Popular traditions section[edit]

"Alongside the church itself, many Irish folk traditions persisted for centuries as a part of the church's culture. Holy relics are thought to possess curative or magical powers, colourful "patterns" (processions) in honour of local saints persisted into the 1800s, and in 1985 thousands gathered to pray during the Moving statues phenomenon. Mariolatry is a central element, focused on the shrine at Knock, where the Virgin Mary appeared in 1879. Recent feasts and cults such as the Immaculate Conception of Mary (1854) and the Sacred Heart of Jesus (1856), and the concepts of martyrology are still important elements. Respect for mortification of the flesh has led on to the veneration of Matt Talbot and Padre Pio, and claims of miracles are investigated."

Any suggestions / additions? Many cultural elements are associated with the church that non-Irish people would not know about.86.42.218.67 (talk) 13:41, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

I think it's important to have such a section for sociologists and non-Christian readers of wikipedia. It is just about a big enough subject for its own article some day.Red Hurley (talk) 11:18, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

POV sections Oct 2008[edit]

I consider that User:Krzyzowiec is a bit POV himself, looking at his own page. Maybe best to stick to Polish wikipedia and all its "left-liberal" admins. Who would like me to haul in the numerous Irish refs from the sex abuse article?Red Hurley (talk) 12:51, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Opening Paragraph[edit]

I've edited the opening paragraph of this article (mostly because grammatically it had problems), but I'm not even comfortable that it is as it should be. The CIA factbook offered as a source says 87.4% for the Republic and doesn't say anything about 'infant baptism,' so I don't know if that's not actually the source that's meant or if the # is simply wrong. I can't find the source for the NI percentage, so I wonder if it is correct or specifically tied to the claim of 'infant baptism.' I also removed the total island population from the sentence because the percentages were for the individual jurisdictions, rendering the island pop. unhelpful. Nuclare (talk) 04:21, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

"Infant baptism" is common in Christian churches. It means that people are affiliated with a church without having a choice in the matter, and by the time they are old enough to decide the good / bad points of their religion they usually remain with it, and in turn pass it on to their children. This has an effect on subsequent numbers in all churches. As for percentages today here or there, I can't say.Red Hurley (talk) 11:15, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

This is a terrible article[edit]

Over 1500 years of history but nothing before 1800? I'll try to rectify it. Benkenobi18 (talk) 09:19, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Have not finished, but this is the primary source. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08098b.htm Will continue to edit to narrow the focus.
1,500 years of Christianity, but few of us called ourselves Catholics before the 1500s Reformation. I'm removing your stuff as it's based on a 1910 church encyclopedia and therefore potentially biased. It needs links and references as well, not just one source. But the 1910 source should be linked to give an idea of how things have changed.Red Hurley (talk) 19:32, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
I am moving the historical narrative to History of Christianity in Ireland which is an article that I created back in January. It appears that User:Benkenobi18 inserted a massive amount of text either verbatim or nearly verbatim from the Catholic Encyclopedia article on Ireland.
I would like to draw everyone's attention to Wikipedia:Catholic Encyclopedia topics.
While the text [of the Catholic Encyclopedia] is public domain PLEASE do not simply dump text from the CE into Wikipedia without modification. The Encyclopedia was written to serve the Catholic Church and reflect its doctrine, therefore nearly every article has a distinct POV and no article should be included word for word. Format the text according to the Wikipedia Manual of Style. Update any spelling anomalies. Rephrase any awkward-sounding prose to improve clarity and flow. Remove 19th century references unless they really move the text along. Update the articles with new information. Any text describing the "current situation" as of 1908 or 1913 should be revised as necessary. When you have finished writing your article, add the  This article incorporates text from a publication now in the public domainHerbermann, Charles, ed. (1913). Catholic Encyclopedia. Robert Appleton Company.  template to all articles based on a CE entry.
It appears that Benkenobi18 has in fact simply dumped text from the CE into this article.
Aside from the problems mentioned in Wikipedia:Catholic Encyclopedia topics, there is also the problem that this article is not really the best place to have such a long and detailed treatment of the history of Roman Catholicism in Ireland. In general, the articles of the form "History of Roman Catholicism in Country X" describe the state of the Church in that country in the present-day. There may be a short summary of the church's history in that country but I have started a series of articles titled "History of Roman Catholicism in Country X" which are intended to cover the church's history in that country in greater detail.
Thus, we have Roman Catholicism in Spain and History of Roman Catholicism in Spain, Roman Catholicism in Mexico and History of Roman Catholicism in Mexico, Roman Catholicism in the United States and History of Roman Catholicism in the United States. Thus, we should have Roman Catholicism in Ireland and History of Roman Catholicism in Ireland.
Note that History of Roman Catholicism in Ireland currently redirects to History of Christianity in Ireland. The reason for this is that the Celtic Church arguably represents an early non-Catholic form of Christianity which was later suppressed, subsumed and/or transformed by the Catholic Church. I am open to renaming History of Christianity in Ireland to [[History of Roman Catholicism in Ireland and reversing the redirect. I would like to hear what other editors think on this question.
--Richard (talk) 03:16, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
If the text was from the Catholic Encyclopedia, then you were right to remove it. While it would seem appropriate to avoid over-long historical sections, surely there should be at least a brief summary of the history - such a section seems to exist in many of the other articles on "Roman Catholicism in X". I agree with you re the History article move and have gone ahead with it. Note that Celtic Christianity's own article makes it clear that it is inaccurate to describe it as a unified and identifiable entity separated from the mainstream of Western Christendom - Celtic Christians would have seen themselves, and are usually seen by modern historians, as having been essentially part of the same church as the one led by the Pope, but having some distinctive traditions and practices. The History of Christianity in Ireland was primarily about Catholic Christianity. A new article is needed there including more about other Christian denominations. Tameamseo (talk) 11:18, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
Ok, but I'm going to make some changes to the summary. I want there to be a historical description of the history of Catholicism in Ireland, which originates with St. Patrick. Please recall he was sent by Rome as a mission to Ireland.Benkenobi18 (talk) 11:21, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
I agree with Tameamseo and Benkenobi18 that there should be a summary of the history of the church here in this article. I'll make an initial effort but I suggest that we keep in mind that there is a main article on the history and the section in this article should be just a summary per WP:SUMMARY. --Richard (talk) 15:38, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Source Dumping[edit]

[Moving this discussion here from my Talk Page]

I rather resent the allegation that I dumped the entire contents. If you had read and compared the two, you would have seen the considerable amount of editing that I had been engaging to reduce the size of the history section. I cut out about 60 percent of the article. Suggest you take the time to talk with an editor if you don't understand what they are doing.Benkenobi18 (talk) 11:32, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry for having offended you.
If you look at what I wrote and parse it carefully, I did not write that you had "dumped the entire contents".
I wrote "It appears that Benkenobi18 has in fact simply dumped text from the CE into this article."
I admit that this can be read to mean that you dumped the entire article and for this I apologize. I was writing quickly.
I admit that I did not compare your edits to the original CE article, word-for-word. I didn't know one way or the other if you had copied the entire article or not. That wasn't the point I was making. The point that I wanted to make was that some significant passages had been copied verbatim and the reason I could tell is that the style of the writing was archaic and had a Catholic POV.
It is good that you cut out 60% of the article but the 40% that you did copy still doesn't meet the standards of Wikipedia articles. More effort will be required to clean up the text and put it into text that uses a 21st century tone and strikes an NPOV stance.
Your copying of the CE text is a good first step but it needs to be followed up by some significant cleanup and rewriting. That's what I was trying to communicate.
--Richard (talk) 15:47, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

History section[edit]

OK, I've brought back a lot of the history section that I deleted last night but after some significant further editing to trim it down. It's still too long but the problem isn't so much extraneous detail any more as it is the problem of separating the history of the Roman Catholic church in Ireland from the history of Roman Catholics in Ireland. Much of the history section deals with political, economic and military history which belongs in History of Ireland instead of in this article or in History of Roman Catholicism in Ireland. The problem, of course, is that the church has been involved in many of the interactions between Catholic Ireland and Protestant England. I have cut out as much as I could in the first pass but more trimming is necessary. --Richard (talk) 16:53, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm editing it down a lot more. So the Vikings arrived? They arrived all over Europe and what religion was where was irrelevant as far as they were concerned. When I learnt history in national School the vikings were the very worst thing but now we know that they started towns and improved trade links and were at peace most of the time. Churches were raided by the Vikings, the Church wrote the history books anti-the Vikings, unsurprisingly. The 1913 encyclopedia is rubbish, mostly, but interesting to see what rubbish was around when. This is a world encyclopedia so we Irish have to adopt a wide angle lens on our own history - we are famous for being too insular.Red Hurley (talk) 22:12, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
Any disagreeing will see that there were no links (or mentions) of/to: Regnans in Excelsis]], The Graces(Ireland), the Test Act, the Declaration of Breda, a link to JKL and so on. Roman Catholicism as a separate Irish cultural element really started in the 1530s but before 1570 or 1603 other outcomes might have arisen. The more of politics that is/are included, the less on religion. Lord "Gormanstone"? - I don't think so. "Loss of majority in parliament in 1613" - not in the Lords until 1650; loss etc. in the Commons most of the time was the reality, not "parliament". It would have had a C- mark from any inter cert examiner. Shocking, isn't it, that a 1913 book could be wrong. Can we keep this page to Ireland post-1922?Red Hurley (talk) 22:29, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Edit Dec 2009[edit]

I have removed 99% of the history section for being overly long and imperfectly encyclopedic.Red Hurley (talk) 20:51, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Neutrality[edit]

I dispute the neutrality of this article. It does not discuss the reduction of Catholicism in Ireland. See example sources below

--Senra (talk) 18:51, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

If you hav' reliable sources (which you do) then be bold and put it in yourself. ~Asarlaí 19:12, 12 March 2013 (UTC)