|This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Romance (love) article.|
|Romance (love) has been listed as a level-4 vital article in Life. If you can improve it, please do. This article has been rated as C-Class.|
|WikiProject Psychology||(Rated C-class, High-importance)|
- 2 Fantasy against reality
- 3 Improvement drive
- 4 Nice work
- 5 romantic love before middle ages
- 6 Minor edit
- 7 You forgot something:
- 8 Added dubious tag
- 9 Photography?
- 10 Why must romantic love take one by surprise?
- 11 Request for protection
- 12 Introduction
- 13 THE INTRODUCTION... POSSIBLY INNACURATE?
- 14 DOES NOT CITE REFERENCES?
- 15 Citation Problem
- 16 Messed Up Article Format
- 17 Anthony Robbins on Romance
- 18 In Case you want to compare oldest and newest revisions easily
- 19 Bot problem
- 20 Removed Original Research Tag
- 21 Move
- 22 Lead section
- 23 Diffficulty with finding articles without Gender Bias
- 24 romanticism and exaggeration
- 25 trim article
- 26 Inadequate Source
- 27 Why is there nothing on here about Jeanette Kritsky?
- 28 move
- 29 Lisa Diamond?
- 30 what kind?
- 31 Edit notice debate
- 32 Removed content
- 33 New Material for Peer Review
- 34 Major overhaul of page structure, grammar.
- 35 Romance and the Roman Empire
- 36 Romance and sexual dimorphism
- 37 Romance and social norms
- 38 Romance and sexual dimorphism
- 39 Oxford dictionary broken link
- 40 One complicated sentence
- 41 Meaning of"romance".
- 42 Move?
- 43 Misrepresentation of Chivalry
- 44 English Grammar
No mention of the troubadors? No mention of the Courts of Love? Can't we find an expert on early Renaissance history to at least stick a few footnotes in?
- Please, sign and date your comments. Just insert 4 tildes (~~~~) at the end of your comment. If you know something on this subjects, please, add them yourself. Thank you.
:)Jotomicron | (talk)
I "second" the initial comment above. I'm currently reading Denis de Rougemont's Love in the Western World. and can vouch that this article leaves out a lot about the origins and history of romantic love. However, I'm no authority in this area and am reluctant to interpret de Rougemont. soverman 02:13, 30 Sept 2005 (UTC)
Fantasy against reality
These must be the old comments--sorry.Cdg1072 19:33, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
Excuse me, but I am wondering where some of this material comes from. I have gone back today and added some citations and begun to build a works cited page. I accept the fact that it is considered original research for the reason that there aren't any minor or contemporary works, such as Dr. John Gray--who remains quite popular today--mentioned, and that gives the article a sense of datedness and being out of touch with contemporary thinking. On the other hand, besides books like Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus, there is a lot of spurious insight about love in many sources. It seemed to me, in thinking that romance as a relative term can't be reduced to the trivial relationship alone.Cdg1072 19:31, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
"such love, as generally depicted in popular media, rarely, if ever, occurs in society"
For crying out loud it is ridiculous to claim that romantic love doesn't exist! The whole paragraph is RUBBISH and I think it should be deleted. The neutrality tag is not enough, because the whole paragraph is outrageous. here it is...
"While romantic love as discussed above a dream of many, some claim that such love, as generally depicted in popular media, rarely, if ever, occurs in society. They point to the modern practice of dating, where often the goal is to have sexual intercourse as soon as possible instead of building lasting relationships. Often, the rigorous demands of careers in the modern world deny people the time to find such idealised companions, and mental disorders such as social anxiety disorder prevent people from approaching others. In addition, the high prevalence of divorce in western society may be an additional deterrent for individuals seeking long-term, romantic relationships with the possibility of marriage. Yet while romantic love may remain no more than a dream for many, as a dream it is unquestionably a powerful influence on real-world behaviour. " 8 Feb 2007 23:51
I want to add that "Dr." John Gray is not a legitimate expert--his "Degree" is from a now unaccredited school in California. Take his information with a HUGE grain of salt. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.104.22.168 (talk) 18:20, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
I think this is a very well written article. -- James26 11:39, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Not a bad article, but still needs work... 22.214.171.124 05:46, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
romantic love before middle ages
I don't believe the concept of romantic love didn't exist prior to the middle ages (whether it was documented or not). It seems like this article hasn't been paid much attention by scholars. This article is linked from the St. Valentine's day article, and is in dire need of improvement. It would be useful if anyone who knows of any work that has been done on exploring the history of the concept could add the reference to this article. Donama 06:19, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
"Properties of romantic love purported by Western culture that might or might not appear elsewhere include:"
"Properties of romantic love purported by Western culture include:"
due to dictionary-definition quality redundancy. I can't imagine a phrase with less meaning. Drewson99 05:49, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
You forgot something:
What about how fast does it take to fall in love? 瀬人様
- Actually, that is a disputed conclusion. I mean, of course, it could take anywhere from an second (as some claim) to several (possibly not till your death) years. But, it all depends on the person and this has never been revealed. UnDeRsCoRe 23:32, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
Added dubious tag
The problem with that statement is that before the 19th century most marriages in the West were arranged, and the idea of marriage based on romantic love only came into being in the early 19th century.
Roadrunner 10:54, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
- This is a misconception, actually. Even in the middle ages, arranged marriages were only practiced with the nobility. Peasants were free to marry as they pleased. So marriage based on romantic love is at least as old as the middle ages. 12:57, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
Or other art?
This is kind of a big one. wiki can be a lot more awesome if this page is inspiring rather than middlin' and descriptiveThechosenone021 15:15, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
DUMB VANDALISM? "Romantic love can be returned or unrequited. In the former case, the mutual expressions of love can lead to marriage or to the establishment of a permanent relationship, which in most cases will include passionate sexual love. Where the love is one-sided (unrequited), the result can be damaging to the self-esteem and/or the psychological welfare of the spurned lover. Basically they're all the same and you should steer well clear mate."
The last sentence is completely inconsistent and should be removed. PatrickDunfordNZ 02:58, 18 January 2007 (UTC
Why must romantic love take one by surprise?
Romantic love needs not take someone by surprise. All relationships (romantic or not) begin with a "random encounter" of some kind, so saying this is pointless. Also, it can slowly become obvious that two people are interested in each other -- their attraction can develop slowly, predictably and unsurprisingly out of a friendship.
Romance can be easily controlled. Saying it cannot is a sweeping statement that is extremely difficult to prove or even strongly suggest. I'm sure many people have considerable ability to control their romantic interests (especially in the name of culture, politics or religion, for example). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 126.96.36.199 (talk) 03:02, 21 March 2007 (UTC).
Request for protection
Article has been requested for semi-protection due to vandalism by anonymous accounts and new users. Zuracech lordum 07:44, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
The introduction to this article is wordy and confusing. It should be revised for easier reading.188.8.131.52 03:19, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
THE INTRODUCTION... POSSIBLY INNACURATE?
Here is what I am questioning... "Romantic love is a form of sexual love that attempts to either partly, or in some cases entirely, transcend mere needs driven by looks, sexual desire, or material and social gain." --- Romantic love is a form of sexual love? This is not necessary untrue, but it also not necessarily true. It can be misleading causing the reader to assume it means "love involving phsyical sexual intercourse." Secondly the word "looks" should be translated as "physical appearances." Sexual desire is not always the cause for romantic, in some case REAL LOVE is, which is quite another factor. I am not saying to delete this, but it needs cited at the very least. Where is this information coming from? Certainly my own experiences have told me that you do not need to try to attribute material or social gain in order to be romantic. And if you've ever been in a relationship you'd instinctually know that you can look like **** and your partner see you as a wonderful romantic partner. Part of what in the article is lacking is the human emotional appeal toward what, why and how partners react romanctically. 184.108.40.206 16:23, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
Here's why I take issue with your quick questioning of the idea that romantic love is inherently sexual. True, sexual is a loaded term, and "spiritual" is vague. By saying it is always a form of sexual love, I mean that while it tries to transcend these things, it never escapes their inclusion entirely and it always proceeds either in some sense away from these things in terms of origin, or toward them as in some sense being subordinate to sexuality as a goal.
By spirituality I meant the personality, not religious leanings--and one must admit--please consider this--that the personality of the individual to whom we are attracted, or however one thinks of their spirit and mind in metaphysical terms, is something to which we are drawn for its agreeable qualities. As much as one may have the right to argue against, it then, one has to give the devil his due, in the sense that one must recognize the prevailing philosophical view that romantic love, not just in its material aspects, but in all its aspects, is a worldly phenomenon, and to suppose that it rises above that is widely considered to be a delusion. Consider reading Dostoyevsky, Tolstoy, Nietzsche, Flaubert, or Stendhal. Or simply present your view in the debate from an established point of view that contradicts this more worldly view--such as that of Christianity and many other religions which attempt to re-integrate love in all its forms back into a peaceful relationship with spirituality. That is in a sense the agreed purpose, for many, of all forms of art, religion, and even philosophy, is it not? It is possible to argue the contrary, then, but you kind of have to say where you are coming from.
By all this I mean that an article about romance ultimately has to link itself to problems in philosophy, in particular how spritiual qualities experienced in the context of these physical relationships, might be, as Plato suggests, merely faint copies of a truly spiritual reality which surpasses worldly romance. While I have not much sympathy for Plato, I am afraid his position historically and influentially is inescapable.
Though such problems and questions might not normally be approached in a discussion about the practical concerns of love and one's talent and skill at social interaction, nonetheless they are valid criticisms that are relevant to the topic. They also are supported, if not by the philosophy of Plato, by a lot of modern philosophy that, while not a part of natural science necessarily, is an important part of the history of thought. It also happens that much "research" about love and the thinking that truly influences social interaction often comes from fiction. Kierkegaard and Shakespeare, and perhaps secondly Tolstoy and perhaps Flaubert, Austen or Thomas Hardy, from a western perspective should be mentioned as some of the main philosophers of love.
You go on to ask why my comments do not provide a sense that romantic love is in fact meaningful and spiritual, not merely mechanical and useful only for starting a family--but the view most often taken in philosophy is, I think that romantic love is inherently transitory and ephemeral, for a number of reasons.
I have gone back today and added some citations and begun to build a works cited page. I accept the fact that it is considered original research for the reason that there aren't any minor or contemporary works, such as Dr. John Gray--who remains quite popular today--mentioned, and that gives the article a sense of datedness and being out of touch with contemporary thinking. On the other hand, besides books like Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus, there is a lot of spurious insight about love in many sources.
It seemed to me, in thinking that romance as a relative term, it can't be reduced to the trivial relationship alone, but it can not be entirely untangled from it either.Cdg1072 19:49, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
--The question is not whether or not the term is relative is or not, my question is "is this portion accurate and verifiable? Do we have sources to back up the claims? If you have noticed I did not delete the section, you see I am asking as to the accuracy and the validity to the claims made. At this point I am neither agreeing nor disagreeing, and the reason I do so is simply because in some ways certain portions of the introduction "seemingly" contradict my personal experience yet others seem to fit well. The point of wikipedia is to provide accurate verifiable information to its readers, which is the point of any encyclopedia. I believe the article also calls for a clean-up tag. 220.127.116.11 05:18, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Yet, I did not say whether the claims in the introductions are true or false. And thirdly I did not write anything on this article, I merely moved a section that seemed more feasible in the introduction than in the portion it was in. 18.104.22.168 05:18, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
I must argue with your argument that "one must recognize the prevailing philosophical view that romantic love, not just in its material aspects, but in all its aspects, is a worldly phenomenon, and to suppose that it rises above that is widely considered to be a delusion (BY WHOM?) Your statement here, is a form of [systematic bias and is highly opinionated, not necessarly factual. This is something that is based upon ideologies and therefore as many verifiable advocates and disputants to such ideas should be examined. For example I doubt that certain people in particluar religious groups would agree with you here. The articles are supposed to be written in NPOV, neutral point of view. 22.214.171.124 05:25, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
You say that religious groups would not agree that romantic love is limited as being a worldly phenomenon? Possibly--but only in so far as they would claim to be able to sanctify it, in marriage, for example, or in some kind of sublimation. In catholicism, for example, holy orders is itself likened to marriage--by the Church. But that still leaves the romantic element isolated from spirituality. So I disagree with you. Aren't you just making a case for your own biased view, since you are implying that when we are attracted to someone's personality we are drawn to some kind of "higher good"? Such a view is kind of refusing to at least acknowledge the philosophy of Buddhism, for example, or Nietzsche.
Most "religious groups" actually point to God and spirituality as being beyond, above the things of this world, which may be epitomized in romantic love. Augustine claimed that great saints have to have some understanding or experience of worldly pleasures, but on the other hand, Buddha preached abstinence from sex. How is his spirituality compatible with it?126.96.36.199 15:48, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
"it is not widely held" a clever way of disguising weasel words. I doubt the intentionality of such a usage, but it does not meet Wikipedea's standards... this is the near equivilent of "very few people believe,"... (same guy as above)
Do you think that the article does and should be able to make objective, verifiable claims ABOUT ROMANTIC LOVE, or should it be more on the level of making objective, verifiable claims about PHILOSOPHERS WHO WROTE about romantic love? I think that it is the latter with this kind of subject. Your criticism is kind of equivocal on that point. It seems to me that just about all the claims about historical writers are cited properly at this point. I agree, however, that I am a little glib in my reference to Kierkegaard. I should not just say that "he says in this book" or "Kierkegaard said" that is not proper scholarship, I admit. It should be fixed.188.8.131.52 15:14, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Unfortunately, it is doubtful to me that we could ever make objective and verifiable claims about ROMANTIC LOVE, as an idea in principle, because in my opinion Romantic Love is relative, since differing people and differing cultures would thusly define such a supposed universal phenemon in unique ways. I have to agree that we need to state such an observation within the article, and thruthfully pinpoint that this is a philosophical discussion within the article. In other words we could state: "This article discusses only philosophical idelogies about Romantic Love. For other forms relating to this subject see: Love(disambiguation) and Romance." I had never intended to stray from the topic, yet you are correct, the article did not have a throughouly committed topic, though it appeared to. The term Love is a broad term, and even with the term "romantic" attached, it apparently is more broad than I had previously thought. You see, if we were to discuss it astray from the philosophical views, we would be moving more away from wikipedia's standards, because we would be stating general preferences, and personal bias. Though this article is subject to bias on all accounts, we should only state bias that is referenced. You see we state personal bias in this way... if you have read from a source that agrees with your opinion, you simply state it like this "Bernard Shaw states "..." However if you impose strictly your beliefs without source reference to back up your claim this is conduct considered original research. Thank you for your careful thoughts. The article is well written. Its just sort of like a painting that is pleasant, but seems to be missing something. Like a bookshelf, missing one book. Well, you get my point. 184.108.40.206 17:16, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Am I making a case for my own bias? No. Let me explain..." Aren't you just making a case for your own biased view, since you are implying that when we are attracted to someone's personality we are drawn to some kind of "higher good"?" I did not imply this, if you so assumed so, you misjudged. Yet, I have read about other people who have this belief system. It is not my personal opinion. I believe both sides of the issue need discussing. Validity and verifiablity are not necessarily the same thing. I believe we should try to write for both, but in a case such as this, wikipedia has set the standard of verifiability over validity. You see I am not of the opinion that when we become aroused "romantically" that we necessarily have tapped into a divine state. Yet, I have met people who hold such beliefs, and have read about them. Portions of the Bible seem to make claims similar to this... especially in the Song of Solomon, which discusses love and lust between two particular people. It is not my personal belief, however there are others who have such beliefs. This is why I say to weigh both sides of such an issue, adherants and disputants. But someone has already begun to incorporate this issue into the article, which saves me some research time. 220.127.116.11 17:59, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
DOES NOT CITE REFERENCES?
Whoever put that tag on there missed the whole reference section! It does cite references, yet this artcile still retains a whole lot of unverified (and possibly even unverifiable information.)
The correct tag would be this one: This article may contain original research or unverified claims. 18.104.22.168 16:23, 22 July 2007 (UTC), which I have now corrected.
In the introduction there is a citation problem. While on the surface the quote seems to be verified by source material it lacks in actual credence. Sorry to be a poo-poo head again... I don't always like to be negative nelly. Yet, I think the referenced material should be more specific. This statement "Shakespeare in his plays, and Tolstoy and many others in their novels show this." is in fact not a citation, as though it would appear. And here is why, let me dissect the sentence for you... "Shakespeare in his plays... show(s) this." (Although this may be true, Which ones?, Which plays? Which particular plays display this particular idea? What portions of the play actually state so? Does the play state so directly, or is this idea based solely upon implication, or individual perception by audience members? Also, are there direct quotes within the play that make a similar statement?) Tolstoy in (his) novels show this. (Which novels?) And many others in their novels show this. (Who are the many others? What are their names? What books have these "others" written that attribute material to the claim?) 22.214.171.124 04:52, 24 July 2007 (UTC) I added a quote by shakespeare which implies agreement to the statement in the paragraph, if one chooses to decipher the meaning in such a way. I'm sorry but it's the closest thing I could find that proposes a similar point of view. 126.96.36.199 06:04, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
You are correct, and it is not proper scholarship, but I can finish, that is explain the points, and support them with quotations. What I may not be able to do is find a scholarly article, though I have access to JSTOR and Project Muse, which supports the claim that Measure for Measure undermines marriage. I might find an article that mentions that some directors interpret Isabella's silence as a rejection of the proposal. In fact I read that in the chapter on Measure for Measure just a few weeks ago, and I can find the book again.188.8.131.52 15:57, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
(former 69 point whatever, here, your arch enemy 68.11 -- Haha!) Anyway, thank you for your extensive research and excellent clean-up. I don't have much reference material dealing with the subject matter of marriage and romance... but I do have material dealing with romance in general. I must say that I never imagined such a transition from where the article was only a few days ago. We worked our tails off, probably more you than me, because most of what I did was minor, except the portion on the psychologist. I have the citation somewhere, but lost it, so I put the citation needed thing on it, so when I come back to read it, I'll remember that it needs cited. The Article is a Universit of Utah publication, but I'm not sure if it is copyrighted or publc domain. Chado2423 21:19, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
Messed Up Article Format
Yes, I am to blame for the formatting fault in the article... please shoot me. No, just kidding, I want to live. My computer froze while I was qdding information to the article. If you can correct this problem, please do. PLEASE DO! 184.108.40.206 07:43, 24 July 2007 (UTC) Corrected myself...
Anthony Robbins on Romance
Just out of curiosity is there material by Anthony Robbins on Romance... I know he has material on Relationships, but I was curious if he had written some of his theories on romance in particular?
In Case you want to compare oldest and newest revisions easily
... the oldest form of this article was simply:
"Romantic, in the sense of romantic love is often used as a contrast to sexual "love," or lust, as the case may be." (Revision as of 07:42, 31 July 2003)
Boy has this article really expanded, thanks to some wonderful editors. I did not originate the article, however this is a subject that I am highly interested in, and would love to see what else wonderful information everyone finds and incorporates. I will also do my best research.Chado2423 02:53, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
Is the bot correcting a vandal? Or is it mistaken? If you have citation regarding the accuracy of the beings with spherical torsos, two sets of human limbs and two faces back to back, also having two sets of genitalia, this should be included. Sometimes the bots do clean up work that is really more equated with cencorship than cleap-up. Please let me know if you have reference material to back up this claim 68.11, because I will contact an administrator or other bot equivilent if the case warrants it. The administrational purpose for this is to save the editors from some editing time, but sometimes they falsely accuse, which may have been the case here. Just let me know if we should re-incorporate the genetalia aspect (if it is indeed referenced), and I will try to contect the necessary party to allow such usage. Chado2423 03:09, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
Okay I must say, I read the portion of Plato's symposium, and I am now aware that the creature did in fact have two differing sets of genetalia, which is of primary importance in relation to that of heterosexual romantic relationships, symbolic that of the sexes being complementary to one another, through the aspect of love, and physicality. The edit has thusly been re-reverted, for this purpose, since the edit was NOT vandal, but mistaken as a vandal. Well three permutations, one of which had differing sets. I have now corrected this. If this happens again by the same editor, I will contact a wikipedia administrator, but for now I give Trusilver the benefit of the doubt. Chado2423 04:01, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
Removed Original Research Tag
There are still a couple of areas that need citations however, but I believe that the original has been limited in scope that the article may almost meet the wikipedia's standards, with just a little more work. Once the article is more complete, I will contact a friendly administrator for review of the page. Chado2423 05:01, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
I moved Romantic love to Romance (love). Term Romance (love) is per cambridge online dictionary, see . This article is the top link in disambiguation page Romance. I had proposed a move in Wikipedia:Requested moves, see discussion in talk:romance. But this move is not related to that move hence moving without consensus. Im afraid wikipedia had no article titled exactly "romance", in five years. Lara_bran 04:58, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
|Manual of Style|
Aftter my move request, maybe as a result, this article has gone extensive work by one ip and one new user both seem to be same individual, in just 3 days.
User:Chado2423, you are doing a great job, you can revert article to your version, or add(merge) your content back to article. But all your edits may be mercylessly edited or reverted back in future under wikipedia policies, please dont mistake, nor take it personally. Thanks for your contributions where article grown from 9kb to 27kb, im sure your contents will be added, but properly structure your contents. Lara_bran 05:29, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
In response, I've been working with reading the guidelines on wikipedia format, which is why I proposed an expert on the subject review the content. I must say that the information in the article was primary concern, and NOT style, at least not initially, and that I was to work on the manual of style: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style; as I went along. In other words it does no good to have an excellent "style" if the information is not first and foremost verifiable. I agree that the article was lacking in proper format and best style, however the information itself was becoming more sound than it had been previously. I will have to look and see exactly what content was deleted, what section it should be in precisely etc, and weigh once again whether or not it should be included. And if I am able to contact an expert I will. I may possibly have a contact to a Marriage conselour, but I'd rather see the overall historical aspect, which would call for a knowledgable historian. I will also have to re-examine the troubadours... I origianlly used an article by Henry Gruenbaum for that particular purpose. But, wikipedia has a direct link to that subject, which is why I did not discuss them in detail, merely, mentioning only an article that does, though they are of primary importance dealing with the subject of romance as an expression of one's creative nature. Without the troubadours much of the romantic poetry, and art, and "romantic traditions" we see today in the Western Society would not exist in the same manner in which it does.
I realize you have made an honest mistake. I know you were merely trying to move the article, and not delete content. I have decided not to revert the change but to observe it more closely. The article may traditionally fit better under the title of "romance", but as an unwritten rule we did not place it there because if you read the article, I must make it clear to you that the title of romantic love was to be construed because this topic is not about the subject of mere romance, but "romance in love relationships", though still a relative term, it is more of a specific topic than romance alone. Though it is sort of discreet the article actually discussed in portions the difference between mere romance and romantic love. We were not originally discussing romance in any other form. This seems like a mere distinction to most people, but in actuality it is a huge one historically. There is a difference between romantic involvement between partners who also love each other in the more spiritual sense, and the romance that occurs between people who do not love each other on that same level. In today's Western society that distinction is nearly lost, but in other societies historically that distinction was a major component of what could constitute legitimate relationships, such as the women known as the Eastern Eurpeon ladies known as the Burgeious in the early 19th century. But, I will look into what needs included and what does not need to be included as far as subject matter goes. Unfortunately the manual of style is still a work of progress. 14:57, 27 July 2007 (UTC) Chado2423 14:59, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
Ladies or gentlemen, please read the article carefully before trying to edit it, unless you decide to restructure the categories altogether. There is a section "romance and Value" which deals with the question of romance's spiritual value and criticisms of it as delusory or misguided. The Zukav citation should be there, not in the beginning.Cdg1072 23:31, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
Cdg, when the article was moved much of the content was deleted, back to an earlier transcript.... I'm working to rebuild the article as much as I can and discover where the content actually goes. Please forgive, and please be patient as I review. At that time, I merely hurriedly placed the paragraph back in, because I did not want to forget about it and I did not have much time at the moment. Sorry for the inconvenience, but I will work on smoothing out the article as often as possible. Please contact me on my user page if you wish to discuss my particular editations, rather than the article itself. Thanks Chado2423 02:11, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- This article does not have a Wikipedia:Lead_section. That is first paragraph, not existent at all. You cant take too long to conform to style, as this article is visited during time of edit. Its fine you reverted my edits. Lara_bran 05:01, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
--Laura, sorry but please calm yourself, The purpose of a lead section is to describe the rest of the article, much like the Encyclopedia Britinica does, but this article still needs work and some disputes need solving before we know precisely what we are leading into. You can go ahead and write a lead section if you wish, but lead sections are not a requirement, however standard practice they may be. In time the lead section will appear if you or I or, someone else writes one, but it is not critically set in stone that an article must absolutely have one, only that is considered standard and recommended. Part of what is stalling a lead section here is that of the dispute between the terms "romance" and "romantic love." My question is, if you so adamantly feel this article should have a lead, why didn't you write one? Just curious. Thanks Chado2423 05:22, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
- i have reverted to version that has lead section, i need not write lead section myself. There are many other editors other than me, let them enter the scene. I could not get what exactly going on, otherwise i would have reverted again, now waiting for a third party. Lara_bran 05:36, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
I have added old lead section back from this version. Cleanup article if same sentences repeat. Article should be good version all the time, you cant spoil it for long term to edit. Or editing should be such that article is usable condition all the time. Lara_bran 05:52, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
It's understandable that old materials will resurface when adjustments are made, but sooner or later editors will notice that there are now repeated sentences, where old sentences were shifted around.Cdg1072 06:03, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
--Yes, this is true, but hopefully they will view the discussion page. Or not, whichever way the Gods favor that day. I will specifically examine the article tomorrow for any repeated sentences or phrases, or any other obvious errors of that type. Things like this happen sometimes, it is correctable, but everyone seems to be in a panic. If you are running around too much because you are on fire, you might not be able to see the pitcher of water that could put the fire out. Chado2423 06:19, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
--Im not so sure that in the lead section this phrase should appear in the way in which it does: "Romantic love is a form of sexual love that attempts to either partly." Within the article we discuss veiwpoints that sexual desire and romantic love may not be the same thing, even though they are often connected. Anyone have an idea how to word this more properly? right now, I got nothing. Chado2423 14:39, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
Very good point. I just went in and reworded that sentence, it got moved down to the lower section, and I think it was badly worded.Cdg1072 22:48, 31 July 2007 (UTC) And I reworded it in both places so now it is not a repetition.Cdg1072 23:09, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Diffficulty with finding articles without Gender Bias
The idea of gender bias, even in psychology is a major problem, and especially so involving romance... I am often reading Males do this, Females do this, but yet understanding that these generalizations are only based upon the author's personal experiences rather than actual truth. For instance in The Idiots Guide to Intamacy, there is a distinction between men and women, but these distinctions are not true per se: For men "A typical man will blame the woman for being too demanding, needy, or unappreciative." Yet I have seen examples of the opposite being true, even in my own relationship I was usually classified as the needy one, and I am male. Also the book suggests: "women are still raised to be more relationship focused than men." I would love see documentation proving these assumptions. Chado2423 19:09, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
romanticism and exaggeration
there is article romanticism any relationship can be established in historical definition? and exaggeration or flaunting or making it rich are the words somewhat connected to romance, any idea? Chado really nice work, you deserve appreciation. Lara_bran 03:30, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
--Actually there is a connection between these two terms, historically, and there really should be a link to this article. Thanks for mentioning that, you are right about that Lara. However the terms "Romanticsim" and "Romantic" did not always have the same connotation that they do today, but their point of origin is from the same root words, and same general concepts. I have just begun researching the root words. Also, I am hoping someone can help clean this up a bit, restructure the paragraphs etc. Chado2423 16:59, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
- I will cleanup article when it reaches little stable state, i will have time by then. "exaggeration" or "show off" seem to be common things in arts and current usage in context of love. Lara_bran 07:54, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
It exceeded 32kb, shorten article and introduce images, each image is worth 1000 words. Thanks. Lara_bran 11:30, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
This is technically an inadequate source... none of these definitions given adequately show the idea of exagerated or decorated expression: ^ http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=68503&dict=CALD
Chado2423 05:34, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
- (i deleted quote as link is enough, copyright etc.) We are not supposed to copy sentence, so i tried to put in my own words, it was little misleading, now i tweaked it a little. Lara_bran 06:50, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
- Delete sentence if not seems proper, I could not research in detail. Put one more reference. Somebody trim the article also. Lara_bran 07:02, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
Not necessary to delete, just added reference that has subject matter related to the idea. I'm not good with the trimming. Chado2423 15:20, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks for your interest and effort on article, i will give a go for cleanup, but not in near soon. Lara_bran 03:43, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Why is there nothing on here about Jeanette Kritsky?
Like the time I took her to the botanical gardens, and later that day we had a picnic. But then two weeks ago she dumped me for Brett Ellis. Man, I hate that Brett Ellis. Anyway, I came here for answers, and all I got were the philosophical rantings of some basement dweller who obviously has no knowledge of the subject.
220.127.116.11 20:25, 16 August 2007 (UTC) If you are to make criticisms, please make constructive criticisms. What particular areas of the article do you think should be worked on? What particular questions are trying to seek answers to? What precise knowledge were you searching for? If you do not have the knowledge that you seek, then why do you judge someone who does not share the same knowledge, and who might by chance also seeking the same knowledge? Instead of being judgemental it would be much more beneficial to realise that you and they are could be on the same path toward better understanding, wouldn't it? I.E. are you therefore not the same? One thing I can guarantee to you, is that no one has the precise knowledge that relates to all areas of life, therefore your criticisms are invalid. I am learning about this subject and I am proud of that fact, but I do not know everything about it, nor do I intend to. As far as philosophical rantings, this article is about philisophical viewpoints, or did you miss that? There really is no other way to discuss the theory of love in connection with romance that would be verifiable. Otherwise it would be pure personal intention, and whether or not personal theories are valid, they would not be verifiable. How else would you propose this article be written? See if you tell us what particular changes you would like to see, rather than criticising we might be able to adhere to what you want, or at least discuss it. As far as seeking answers, it takes time to find answers to your questions, and wikipedia won't ever truly have all the answers you seek in life, neither will any other particular source. Instead you find answers in different aspects of your life. It is good that you seek answers, but it is not good that you judge for someone who seeks the same answers you seek. At least we are trying to create a more cohesive article, and we feel humbled by that, although we have a long way to go. I have done a lot of research here, but I am no expert, nor do I claim to be. But I do enjoy researching the subject and seeing different p.o.v's and trying to incorporate those as best as I can, while trying to understand the subject. I've learned alot, and I have more to learn. Thank you and have a good day. [(by the way, I don't even have a basement and I work both inside and outside the home(lol)]Chado2423 16:19, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
somebody reverted move from "romantic love" to "romance (love)", without even mentioning in talk page. Term romantic love is not found anywhere in cambridge/oxford dictionaries. i have put fact tag, and article needs heavy cleanup. Wikipedia does not have article with title "romance", i dont understand why. Article dablinks to love, but mentioned in dab of romance. Lara_bran 06:50, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
- "Romantic love" google search gives 1.5million hits, with this article on top :D. "romance" gives 116million hits with nowhere wikipedia. Lara_bran 06:30, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
- Moved it since nobody provided citation for fact tag to "romantic love". Lara_bran 15:38, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
- "Romantic love" is used 25+ times in this article! -- maybe you should change all those as well? "Romantic love" is far less ambiguous: "Romance (love)" could easily be confused with e.g. a Love affair ("a romance") or Courtship ("to romance") as evidenced by the conflation already present in this article. Ewlyahoocom 08:10, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
- Moved it since nobody provided citation for fact tag to "romantic love". Lara_bran 15:38, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Man I've been so busy working... I haven't had time to look at this article. I must say I am not pleased with what has happened... I agree with Lara that many of these changes were uneccessary... AND YES... IF YOU WANT TO WRITE AN ARTICLE ON "ROMANCE" WRITE ONE ON ROMANCE. Romantic love deals with romance in a specific context. There really should be a seperate article on Romance. 18.104.22.168(aka Chado2423)05:11, 21 September 2007 (UTC) Depending on which server I am I could have two identies... lol.
The section on defining romantic love within a relationship is mostly a discussion of one particular professor's view of romantic love. As Lisa Diamond is not preeminent enough to have a wikipedia page devoted to her as of yet, or to turn up a great many hits in a cursory Google search, perhaps this discussion should be clipped or even removed? It seems strange to have 2/3 of the definition section devoted to one author's view particularly one who is relatively obscure. 22.214.171.124 (talk) 01:39, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
What kind of love is when someone loves a person a they love them back but they don't want to show it? I have that problem.
Edit notice debate
The edit notice for this page is currently subject to a deletion debate. The edit notice is the message that appears just over the edit box whenever the page itself is in edit mode. If you love this notice, hate it, or just would like to comment on it's existance, please come and join in the debate. - TexasAndroid (talk) 13:52, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
I have removed here the following sentence bcz its intention is to vague to fix.
- Romantic love might be requited emotionally and physically while not being consummated, to which one or both parties might agree.
The article it Rdrs to acknowledges that the term is use loosely, but it is about the issue of whether sex takes place in a marriage, and a lk to it is not helpful. If someone knows what its supposed to communicate, it should be rewritten or just replaced.
--Jerzy•t 00:43, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
New Material for Peer Review
I have created new material to augment the "Psychology of Love" section of this article. I plan to post it to the article in a few days, but would appreciate comments in advance. The draft of this proposed insert can be seen on my talk page at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:4Xanadu/workspace
Thanks for your help!
OK, I posted the new section today, as I had not received any comments. Please help by editing and/or adding good material. This has already been reviewed by Jamie for policy compliance, but peer review of content will be helpful. Thanks!!
Major overhaul of page structure, grammar.
I just finished tackling this absolute beast of a topic. Here are my thoughts:
1. Added the sections for romantic love's history as well as the popularization thereof. I feel this will benefit the reader who is skimming the article best.
2. If you are a beginner or notice editor, please familiarize or refresh yourself on Wikipedia's wiki markup before making a reference link. This goes especially for those who are referencing philosophers, artists, authors et cetera with only their last name. Not everyone has the same education as you, so please write the person's full name initially, then follow with only their last name throughout the rest of the page. It also is not necessary to link the same word more than once in an article, so please check the rest of the article before doing so. This sort of care will make the page on romantic love an excellent read.
3. Topics unrelated specifically to romantic love were being brought into this article. Please go to the topic for love to contribute there.
4. Changes in grammar were made to reflect consistency in this article. Because there are multiple authors and voices, I felt it was necessary to make the wording consistent for everyone's benefit.
5. Please remember not to inject words like "perhaps," "maybe," and your personal opinion on topics. It's also important to be as clear and concise as possible in any wiki page.
That said, the article has been improved and I hope another editor will take on the new challenge of culling away unnecessary data. I would love for the author(s) who wrote specifically on philosophical topics referencing Nietzsche to move their paragraphs to the article on love.
mheart 14:58, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
Romance and the Roman Empire
What is the origin of the word "Romance" or "Romantic" is there a connection with monogamy? Has is something to do with the fact - or is it not a fact? - that under the Roman Empire the monogamy became law (although concubines were kept by the male upper class) to preserve property in the same family line? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.96.36.199 (talk) 07:31, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
Romance and sexual dimorphism
In my opinion, Based on sexual dimorphism, an undisputable scientific fact; Romance , in its christian sense , is nothing but an ideation on part of the female of all the vagueness and psychological manipulation the male has to offer as part of his sexual advance. 188.8.131.52 (talk) 04:18, 31 March 2010 (UTC)Goshtaasp
Romance also has a great deal to do with the social norms and what women perceive as "The greater good". For example, the common saying a couple of years ago was "Get a life!" meaning that a "man" should have a job or some other activity that stimulates the economy in a way; one could easily wonder if it's the same these days with the recession.
Romance and sexual dimorphism
Sexual dimorphism in fact explains a lot when it comes to romance; as in some mammals like the smaller breeds of dogs, where the male and female are almost equal in physical strength, sex is done without any pursue and hassle while among other mammals like wild horses rape like behavior has been observed. 184.108.40.206 (talk) 20:08, 4 May 2010 (UTC)Goshtaasp
new link http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/romance?rskey=gEbSc9&result=2#m_en_gb0716780 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.127.116.11 (talk) 15:00, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
One complicated sentence
I don't understand the meaning of the sentence "There may not be evidence, however, that members of such societies formed loving relationships distinct from their established customs in a way that would parallel modern romance." Even with the help of the context, this convoluted sentence is still undecypherable to me, because some negations added to each other in an unpractical way lead to an ambiguous situation.
- Sorry, but I'm quite sure that the original (and sometimes still used) meaning of romance,is not necessarily anything to do with relationships. I think the original meaning was used in the same way as 'story' or fictitious novel. Personally I still use it in this way. The use of 'romance' as it is more often used now, i.e. as in relationships is not really accurate. I'm fairly sure I'm right about this, & it really does irritate me to see words misused in encyclopaedias or by supposed scholars.
I read somewhere that our modern meaning of romance (which this Wikipedia article captures well from my perspective) started from the high ideals for Rome when it was started. the people who founded Rome instituted a new way of governing, replacing a king/dictator with a governing body (Senate) and with the top ruler only in power for a year or so at a time. Also, the same law would apply to everyone. It was a new way of doing things that brought forth the fruits of collaboration for the good of the whole. The attractive idealism associated with this dream-come-true was associated with "Rome" and the abstraction turned in to "Romantic." But I don't see this reported in this article. What's up? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.104.22.168 (talk) 20:02, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
Misrepresentation of Chivalry
As someone who has done some moderate study into the history of domestic violence, it's obvious that the idea that chivalry did anything to help women's rights is a ridiculous myth conceived in the 19th century. There are many resources from the period which show this. For example, in "The Book of the Knight of La Tour Landry", a chivalrous knight is described as doing the following: "smote her with his first down to the earth; and then with his foot he struck her on the visage, and broke her nose; and all her life after that she had her nose crooked, the which shent and disfigured her visage after, that she might not for shame show her visage, it was so foul blemished." Of course, there are other examples- Friar Cherubino of Siena wrote a book called "Rules of Marriage", in which he recommends for husbands to soundly beat their wives with sticks. In one medieval tale, King Arthur rapes a young girl, and her father, upon finding out, says that she hopes she has become pregnant. I remember that one particularly good timeline for some of this stuff is included in a book called "Domestic Violence: A Reference Handbook". Also, while it was technically illegal for a knight to rape or kill a noblewomen, peasants were fair game. It was extremely common for knights to assault female peasants, all the while being considered chivalrous. Chivalry was largely about regulating violence from knights so that it primarily affected peasants, instead of other nobles. Books such as Chandos Herald's The Black Prince and Froissart's Chronicles do a good job of describing what chivalry back then was really like. In other words, the section of this article which describes chivalry as helping empower women is seriously off-base. If nobody has any objections, within the week I will remove all reference to it, but just in case there are any objections, I will give people time to explain them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lazypalindromeemordnilapyzal (talk • contribs) 22:59, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
Portions of this article make me want to cry. There are several sentences that are so unclear, they have resisted all of my attempts to clean them up. For instance, "Within an established relationship, romantic love can be defined as a freeing or optimizing of intimacy in a particularly luxurious manner (or the opposite as in the "natural"), or perhaps in greater spirituality, irony, or peril to the romantic relationship." According to the syntax, this sentence claims (among many things) that "Romantic love can be defined as a freeing of intimacy...in greater spirituality...to the romantic relationship." Really? What exactly does that even mean? And what is the significance of "the 'natural'"? Why is it italicized and quoted? Again, what does it even mean?
I don't want to just excise sentences like this (of which this article has many) because I sense that there is actual content hidden within them, desperate to be heard. But a greater mind than mine will be needed to unlock some of this. Portions of this article read as if Google Translate spat them out after being fed excerpts from an academic journal written in a non-English language. Yes, I'm complaining without providing a fix. Maybe when my brain stops bleeding from earlier attempts I'll make another run at it. Mac (talk) 20:15, 12 September 2013 (UTC)