Talk:Roundup (herbicide)

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Coca[edit]

"The growing popularity of Boliviana Negra amongst growers could have serious repercussions for the U.S. war on drugs but nobody really wants to talk about because it could put an end to U.S. aid money in Colombia and the coca farmers who grow the new strain would stop receiving free weed control on behalf of the U.S. government and taxpayers."

This sentence should be rewritten in a more formal and more neutral manner. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.165.29.44 (talk) 16:26, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up! Interesting article, BTW. Gandydancer (talk) 17:31, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Scotts Miracle-Gro[edit]

This product is actually produced for consumers not by Monsanto, but by Scotts Miracle-Gro. Shouldn't that be mentioned somewhere? --CastAStone//(talk) 14:28, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

merge[edit]

User:Jytdog 19:14, August 26, 2012

I see no link to the discussion. Binksternet (talk) 14:44, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
The three merges I found were very curious. En:wp and two other languages were tagged to merge 26, 27, 29 July, 2012. The other two never did merge. On August 1, 2012, a few days later, the jury ended the court case in favor of Monsanto. I doubt the jury verdict was announced ahead of time but three language wikis all tagged to merge beforehand seems odd. I haven't checked the other languages yet to see if they were merged early as well. Estonian and Czech We could probably unmerge this one and have an actual discussion on it this time.--Canoe1967 (talk) 15:21, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
I don't think it will be productive to try and identify a conspiracy with regard to the Monsanto court case. Let's just concentrate on whether Wikipedia will benefit from having two articles, one on Roundup and one on glyphosate. Binksternet (talk) 02:00, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
Unless glyphosate and Roundup are identical in makeup, etc., there is no question Wikipedia should deal with them separately. (They are most assuredly not identical.) petrarchan47tc 02:21, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
It's in the Glyphosate archives, IRWolfie- (talk) 01:07, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
Ah, okay. I see the following discussions:
So it looks to me as if there was never a strong consensus for merging, just the slim majority in June 2008, with good arguments brought forward by both sides. The June 2008 discussion was critically flawed by the OP stating that Roundup only had one "active ingredient" and it was glyphosate. However, Roundup differs substantially from glyphosate in the supposedly inactive "inert" ingredient polyoxyethylene alkylamine (POEA) which can too easily be contaminated with dioxane to make for very toxic side effects, according to Scientific American. Mother Earth News talks about the concern over further "inert" ingredients of Roundup including the surfactants and solvents. Thus the June 2008 merge discussion was carried out under a false assumption. I think the two articles should be un-merged. Binksternet (talk) 02:58, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
I just noticed some things. 1) I did not agree to an unmerge in June 2013. What I said sounded reasonable, was an approach to developing the glyphosate article that would easily lead to forks. I have agreed to that here, too. 2) When I particpated in the August 2012 discussion, I was fully aware that there are many formulations of glyphosate, and that some additives used in those formulations are more toxic than glyphosate. I have no idea what you mean about "false assumptions," binkster. There are many formulations of Roundup (not all of them have POEA); b) there are many generic (or other brand name) glyphosate formulations, some of which are the same as some Roundup formulations; and c) glyphosate is never used alone - it is always in some formulation. These have been true for about a decade now. No big shockers there. 23:05, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
Additional note, Binkster. Neither of those two sources mentions "dioxane" with respect to POEA. I would guess you are thinking of a different herbicide, 2,4-D (which is an active ingredient, not a surfactant or other additive) Jytdog (talk) 11:45, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
No, I was not wrong in discussing dioxane, which I'm sure you know is found in POEA. The US State Department assembled a glyphosate health study which identifies dioxane in typical glyphosate recipes: "Evaluation of the Effects of Glyphosate on Human Health in Illicit Crop Eradication Program Influence Zones", July 2003. Binksternet (talk) 14:13, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
I have never been able to find a reliable source for that claim about POEA being contaminate with dioxane. The link you provide there is not an RS - the claim about dioxane is not even sourced. Can you find one? I cannot.Jytdog (talk) 19:39, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
Disagree strongly. There is only one active ingredident in Roundup - glyphosate. Glyphosate is NEVER used alone - it is always in a formulation. One of the key elements in every formulation is a surfactant - glyphosate is highly water soluble and cannot penetrate waxy leaves - a surfactant holds the glyphosate on the leaf surface and helps it penetrate. Binkster is correct that the surfactant in some Roundup formulations is POEA Polyethoxylated tallow amine. One of the key things I brought up in the discussion that led to the merge decision, is that the content of the glyphosate and Roundup articles had become almost completely overlapping. Pointless to have two overlapping articles. More importantly, while the anti-GMO crowd remains obsessed with Monsanto's Roundup (which formulation of Roundup they never say because most times folks seem unaware there are about 10 formulations of Roundup, all with different qualities), w in the real world, the patent expired on glyphosate 13 years ago. 13 years ago. Now, in 2013, China makes and sells more glyphosate than anybody, and the focus on Roundup has more to do with politics than with realities of glyphosate and how it used in the real world. I have not had time to work on this article for a long time, but you can see that I left tags where we need to do a lot of work to provide the full glyphosate picture. An unmerge makes no sense, outside of politics. Jytdog (talk) 05:22, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
Now you are talking about three things: Roundup, Roundup clones or generic competitors, and glyphosate by itself, without solvents, surfactants or carriers. The glyphosate article should not have to heft the load of Roundup controversy, including Roundup patent challenges, Roundup legal troubles and Roundup-related GMO crops. The glyphosate article should be a fairly simple affair which concentrates on the chemical and its characteristics, history and usage. The Roundup article should cover the historically important contribution of Roundup (notability does not diminish over time) and of course all the controversy related to Monsanto's Roundup product. A small subsection can cover the generic or clone products. Binksternet (talk) 05:40, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for talking! I would not characterize what I said that way. I said that there is one active ingredient, and many formulations of it -- including many formulations under the Roundup brand. "Roundup" is one brand, but it is not one thing - there are many formulations under that brand, each of which act differently. I'm also not sure what you mean about some specific "Roundup patent challenges" and "roundup-related GMO crops". The GM crops are glyphosate-resistant and Monsanto does not and cannot obligate farmers who buy that seed to also buy Roundup (that kind of forced sale of a related good is called "patent misuse" in patent law - that is a technical term in patent law - and if you try to do it and get caught, your patent can be invalidated in civil court). During the time before the glyphosate patent expired, Roundup was the only game in town, but for 13 years now farmers have had a wide range of glyphosate formulations to buy, to use with the glyphosate-resistant seed they buy. Also the patent was on glyphosate, not Roundup per se, so there are no "Roundup patent challenges" per se. Finally on this, you did not respond to one of the key arguments, was that Wikipedia tried to keep them separate for a long time - earlier merge discussions left them separate - and one of the key reasons to combine them is that they kept creeping back together, which is pretty inevitable if you have one article on an active ingredient and another on a set of formulations. Jytdog (talk) 11:45, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
Wanted to correct something I wrote above! So, back when Roundup was the only glyphosate formulation approved by the EPA, Monsanto did have "typing" language in its contracts with farmers - farmers had to buy Roundup. During that time Monsanto caught a farmer saving seeds and sued him for infringement, and the farmer counter-sued, saying that the tying practice violated anti-trust and Monsanto's patent on the glyphosate resistant seed should be found invalid. The farmer lost, and appealed to the CAFC - and lost again. The reason the court gave, was that there was no anti-competitive effect of the tying language, because there was no product that competed with Roundup. The article describing this (here notes that when glyphosate went off patent, Monsanto dropped this language from its contracts with farmers - -they knew that once there was competition, they would put their glyphosate-resistant seed patents in jeapordy if they kept doing this. So we were each wrong, and each right, Binkster.Jytdog (talk) 21:24, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
Your assertion that Roundup comes in various formulations is an argument for its own article, one separate from glyphosate. Binksternet (talk) 14:15, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
I don't follow... there are probably ~100 formulations of glyphosate, many grouped under brand names... what is special about the ~10 Roundup ones? Jytdog (talk) 19:39, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
Some additional points, already made above in different threads. We have wikipedia articles on acetaminophen (here, actually the british generic name, Paracetamol), not Tylenol or Excedrin - and likewise for other drugs; the articles are on the active ingredient, not the branded formulations which have other stuff in them along with the active ingredient. On the herbicide side, we have an article on Glufosinate (not the formulations like Basta, Rely, Finale, Ignite, Challenge, and Liberty); on 2,4-D not "Weed B Gon MAX", "PAR III", "Trillion", "Tri-Kil", "Killex" and "Weedaway Premium 3-Way XP Turf Herbicide. And so on with other chemicals. I cannot think of a case like what you propose here, where we have separate articles on one subset of formulations and another on the active ingredient. Do you have examples? Jytdog (talk) 11:45, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
gelatin is not an active ingredient, nor is sugar water, nor paper, nor is soap. The Raid (insecticide) example is interesting for existing in parallel to the active ingredient article on Allethrins, but the Raid article sucks (as evidenced by its multiple tags), and has sucked for a long time. Not a great example. Almost all relevant articles are focused on the active ingredient.Jytdog (talk) 19:39, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
Why do we have five articles on Salt water then. They all taste the same to me.--Canoe1967 (talk) 21:44, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

RfC: Un-merge from Glyphosate?[edit]

Closing per request at WP:ANRFC. There were many considerations to evaluate in this discussion. Editors who opposed this split contended that:

  • there was not enough sufficiently unique information about RoundUp to justify a separate article,
  • that making a separate article would attract promotional / POV editing / be otherwise dangerous, or
  • That by convention, we tend to not make articles about specific products and instead go by the chemical name.

Those supporting the split argued that:

  • There was evidence of unique information about RoundUp to merit its own article, and that it meets WP:N per the sources from Binksternet,
  • There are some meaningful chemical differences in RoundUp that differentiate it from glyphosate, or
  • Discussions of topics regarding the specific brand (history, marketing, controversy) are inappropriate on glyphosate, and can be discussed in an NPOV manner as are done on other products.

Given the above, I am going to discount concerns about POV editing / attack page / promo concerns because we have remedies to those issues. I will also discount those opposing on the basis of lack of unique material about RoundUp as it was presented without it being convincingly challenged as insufficient for a split. Therefore, consensus was that a split of the RoundUp material from glyphosate is appropriate. However, Bluerasberry's suggestion to leave some material on RoundUp here in summary style is worth consideration, but because it was not actively discussed, it is not part of this consensus. I, JethroBT drop me a line 22:36, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Should the article Roundup (herbicide) be un-merged from the article about glyphosate, the active ingredient in Roundup? Binksternet (talk) 23:09, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Previous merge discussions

Related articles: Monsanto, Polyethoxylated tallow amine, John E. Franz, Genetically modified crops, CP4, Aminomethylphosphonic acid, Glufosinate, Asgrow, Genetically modified food controversies, Genetically modified maize, Genetically modified rice, Genetically modified soybean, The Scotts Miracle-Gro Company, Monsanto Canada Inc. v. Schmeiser, Séralini affair, Monsanto Co. v. Geertson Seed Farms, Bowman v. Monsanto Co., and Monsanto Technology LLC v Cefetra BV and Others.

Survey[edit]

  • Support. I think Monsanto's Roundup, being a very prominent herbicide product which has made Monsanto billions of dollars, should have its own article. Historically, Wikipedia hosted the article for nearly ten years from late September 2002 to late August 2012. This is what the article looked like in July 2012 before it was merged by Jytdog. Throughout the various merge discussions I saw good arguments for keeping the articles separate, while those in favor of merging were concerned over the amount of duplication between the Roundup and glyphosate articles. I think the Roundup article should concentrate on the brand, product and patent, and the interlinked product families, while the glyphosate article should focus on the chemistry. Binksternet (talk) 23:09, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose
1) The merge was agreed to several months ago because:
a) despite previously stated good intentions like those Binksternet states now, the two articles came to be nearly identical as different editors worked separately on them, and it was clear several months ago that efforts to keep them distinct were pointless in the wiki-world;
b) glyphosate went off patent 13 years ago and ever since then Roundup has been only one brand among many, and China has come to dominate the worldwide market (the relevant patents were on glyphosate, not Roundup per se);
c) it is the norm in Wikipedia for articles about chemical products to focus on the active ingredient, not the branded formulation e.g. Paracetamol, not Tylenol or Excedrin and likewise for other drugs; herbicides Glufosinate (not the formulations like Basta, Rely, Finale, Ignite, Challenge, and Liberty) and 2,4-D not "Weed B Gon MAX", "PAR III", "Trillion", "Tri-Kil", "Killex" and "Weedaway Premium 3-Way XP Turf Herbicide. And so on with other chemicals.
2) Additionally, let me state that:
a) a reader interested in this herbicide should be able to find information about all formulations in one place, including all additives and surfactants used in those formulations;
b) The glyphosate article is not so long that it needs a fork for the Roundup branded products; and
c) pretty much the only reason I can see to having a separate Roundup article is to serve as a WP:POVFORK which we don't do in Wikipedia.
I think split-supporters need to explain how a Roundup article is not a POV fork. Jytdog (talk) 00:01, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
Negatives are hard to prove. No one has demonstrated that the Roundup article is a POV fork. Even if it were, a separate article could easily be edited so that it would not be a POV fork. Boghog (talk) 18:20, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
In theory yes, but please see this dif above, by the originator of this RfC. Basically all the controversy goes into the Roundup article, which I think pretty well fits the definition of a POV fork. Jytdog (talk) 18:25, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
Huh??? How does that fit the definition of a POV fork? I am not seeing it. And again, even assuming if it were a POV fork, it can be certainly be edited to remove any POV. The Roundup story, just like Tylenol and Excedrin is noteworthy from a purely business perspective. Furthermore Roundup was fascinating from the standpoint of how the Monsanto was able to establish extend a proprietary position, not based on composition of matter use, but rather an efficient synthesis. The scope of Wikipedia is not just science. It also includes business. The glyphosate article should focus on the science while the Roundup article should focus on the substantial historical/commercial aspects specific to Roundup. Boghog (talk) 18:52, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
If it is left in the article on the chemical then that may be considered POV as well. If we have a section on this brand there then we should have a section for all brands. As it is now it can be construed as spam material for Monsanto.--Canoe1967 (talk) 19:06, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
Two responses (both kind of agreeing with you, Canoe, but not completely): a) wikipedia articles get built up over time; I think it would be great to have sections on the major formulations and a table showing market shares among them. This can all be built over time. b) there is no doubt that some readers want to find information on Roundup in particular - they should be able to find it, and find it with information on the other formulations, so the reader can see the real world and not a sliver of it. Jytdog (talk) 19:26, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
Wikipedia should be expanding and creating articles not collapsing and deleting. I think these two seem to clash far too often. I can see articles deleted on the grounds of notability but this is not the case here. By moving the material to the chemical article is just turns it into a huge spam section. In order to balance a perceived corporate POV we should create sections for all brands there. That would cause a huge raft of non-notable material. This is far more POV of a merge than any claims of a POV fork.--Canoe1967 (talk) 21:02, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
How is this spam? Again, I am not seeing this. Wikipedia is full of article about specific products (e.g., Coca-Cola, Pepsi, Big Mac, Whopper, Microsoft Windows, iPad, Google Search, Pentium, etc.). As long as these products are notable as documented by independent sources, these articles are not spam. Boghog (talk) 21:25, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
I think you misunderstand. If we merged Big Mac into hamburger without including an equal section on Whopper and all the smaller burgers then that would be spamming the hamburger article with one of the main products. If we trimmed the material way down it may wash but then we lose material our readers should see.--Canoe1967 (talk) 14:03, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
The scope of Wikipedia also includes history. As the innovator product, from a historical perspective, a Roundup section in this article or as a separate article is clearly justified. Boghog (talk) 19:36, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose per the sensible proposal of Zad68 (talk · contribs), Talk:Glyphosate#Glyphosate_v._Roundup. The Glyphosate article should be developed first, and then content split off when a significant amount of Roundup specific content builds up. The old article is of poor quality, including a hodge podge of primary sources making medical claims, particularly of note are those by Seralini of Seralini affair fame. It's an editorial decision to have an article, being notable doesn't mean it is required to exist, and the content is better covered at Glyphosate. I don't see why we would separate the chemistry from the brand Roundup. It provides more context than each separated from the other. IRWolfie- (talk) 23:54, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
These issues can be solved as suggested below. Unmerge the article, repair it, and then decide whether to merge the remaining material. I still feel that so much will remain that our readers will think the chemical article will look like Monsanto spam.--Canoe1967 (talk) 14:15, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose The summary above notes that I merged these a while back, but it suggests that I went ahead without much notice or discussion which isn't quite true. I believe that a merge proposal tag was up for a long time and a discussion occurred on a separate page. These topics are closely related and easier to monitor when combined. II | (t - c) 23:58, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
The discussion didn't have much input. After it was closed then one editor did the merge according to his POV of what should be merged. There was no discussion on what should be kept and what shouldn't be. This resulted in material lost that our readers can no longer see.--Canoe1967 (talk) 14:22, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Support Copied:"Products should not feature so prominently in an chemical article, at best they are to be discussed in a general fashion. It would be like discussing low-carbon steel, hex-nuts in the iron article. Moreover, there is an abundance of information on Roundup to warrant a separate article. Plasmic Physics (talk) 23:59, 20 August 2013 (UTC)"
  • Support per my own comments above, common sense, and Plasmic Physics. It might be said that the 'abundance of information on Roundup' becomes somewhat hidden from the reader because of this merge, which should not have happened according to the guidelines. Also agree with Binksternet: "the glyphosate article should focus on the chemistry". I think this is what the reader would expect. petrarchan47tc 02:03, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Support. The chemistry and product articles should be separate. Having them together dilutes the potential quality of both articles and impacts on clarity. I also believe Roundup meets the Wiki Notability guidelines. LT90001 (talk) 06:54, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
And what would it contain? Would it just be Glyphosate#Monsanto? What about the issue where some scientific papers discuss Glyphosate, and some discuss Roundup? IRWolfie- (talk) 10:59, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
Those papers can either be included in either article or both depending on the paper.--Canoe1967 (talk) 14:34, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose We generally name products by their generic names rather than brand names. Thus we should keep the merge. We do not for example have articles on Plavix and clopidogrel we simply redirect the former to the latter. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 12:57, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
The problem with that is the material on this one product is far larger than many other sections in the chemical article. Our readers would just see that as spamming Monsanto. Much good material was removed in the merge. If it were added back it would just amplify it.--Canoe1967 (talk) 13:56, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
  • This isn't accurate. We generally name products by their generic names rather than brand names unless the brand is in itself notable enough to warrant its own article. See Tylenol for a perfect example of this. The article on Tylenol doesn't focus on the active ingredient (leaving that for the article on Paracetamol), but rather on the history and branding of the particular product, which doesn't belong in Paracetamol. I would make the same argument for Roundup: the product itself is notable in ways that the active ingredient is not. Arathald (talk) 18:48, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose split Binksternet is correct that it would be nice to have a separate article for Roundup as it is a product which meets Wikipedia notability criteria, but I will oppose any split for so long as there is not sufficient unique content with which to make a unique article for this specific brand. The article on Roundup, if it exists, should contain information about the brand and marketing and not about the chemical. Information about the chemical should go in the chemical name article. Right now, there is not enough information about the brand to justify breaking the Wikipedia precedent of not having distinct articles for brands when all the available information is about the generic name for the product. Blue Rasberry (talk) 13:08, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
  • A separate article for Roundup could go into much greater detail about the brand activity. Plenty of books, papers, reports and articles discuss the brand:
There are many more sources we can draw from to discuss the Roundup brand—quite a lot has been written about it. The current section of Glyphosate#Monsanto barely scratches the surface. That section is what I consider to be a summary style section which should be headed by a link to the main article about Roundup. Binksternet (talk) 20:41, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
The Wildlife Ecotoxicology one is especially interesting. One big focus of that, is on POEA which is known to have bad effects on fish and ambphibians. Do you know what other brands of glyphosate use that surfactant? I don't know and I am still trying to find out. It bothers me not to know. Jytdog (talk) 21:19, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
That should be brought up at the other article not in a merge discussion of this redirect.--Canoe1967 (talk) 14:37, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
I am not sure what to say. If someone made a different article talking about the brand, and breaking from the history of this article, and not talking about the chemical, then I would support that. That is separate from this RfC - anyone can start that in their userspace and if it happened, content which is about the brand should not be merged into this article except in summary form to link to the article about the brand. Blue Rasberry (talk) 13:49, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
Just because we can have an article does not mean we must. We can arrive at an editorial decision to merge articles. There has not been any specific proposed text for an unmerge. The cart is being put before the horse here, IRWolfie- (talk) 09:12, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
It isn't a matter of 'can' or 'must' but a matter of 'should'. If the article was merged correctly and it filled the chemical article with too much material on one product then our readers may see that as spam. In that case we 'should' split it off. There is plenty of "specific proposed text for an unmerge" for this here.--Canoe1967 (talk) 14:30, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Support I support separate articles for several of the reasons already offered above. This statement also has a bearing on my decision: Monsanto has responded, saying that (a) Roundup formulations do contain surfactants (detergents) to help the active ingredient penetrate the waxy cuticle of the plant. (b) The surfactants are indeed more toxic than the glyphosate. Gandydancer (talk) 21:39, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose Round-up is just a brand name stuck on glyphosate. Except the turnover and profits made by Monsanto, there is not much left that is unique for Round-up and not related to glyphosate. The Banner talk 12:10, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
There is much material left. If you look at the last historical version you can see it. If we can have that version restored then we can work on it. If it is trimmed to the point where it won't look like spam in the chemical article then it could be merged. Many readers will still think there may too much material on one product though. If you look at Broad Arrow (pigeon), All Alone (pigeon), War pigeon, and the other Dickin Medal recipients you will find that they all have their own articles. Most of these articles will never expand but they are still worthy of stand alone articles. RoundUp is far more notable than most of them so it should have its own article.--Canoe1967 (talk) 14:49, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Having a separate article on a specific brand of glyphosate could be seen as both unduly promotional and as an attack on the product, neither of which is WP's purpose. It would clearly be an unnecessary and contentious article. Martin Hogbin (talk) 14:48, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
Any attack material should be removed or made NPOV. To keep it listed in the chemical article is spam of one brand over the other brands. Since it may be the historical main brand then it does warrant its own article to avoid these issues.--Canoe1967 (talk) 21:25, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
"spam of one brand over the other brands", as Doc James has shown this is fairly standard practice for articles of this type, IRWolfie- (talk) 09:53, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
Just because other articles are corrupted by spam does not mean more need to be.--Canoe1967 (talk) 13:01, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Support Like other editors have said, Wikipedia isn't an Encyclopedia of Science, but rather one of general human knowledge. This includes business and brands. Roundup itself is certainly notable enough to warrant its own article, especially given the direct role that the specific product played in the current state of GMOs. The argument that some editors are making that if we make an article on Roundup, we must also make articles on other pesticide brands is not a terribly good one. We should ask ourselves if the other brands are, by themselves, notable. If they are, then, yes, they should have their own articles. We shouldn't try to reduce the quality and scope of articles to the lowest common denominator. Maybe there is another brand that is also notable enough to deserve its own article, maybe not. But that has absolutely no bearing on whether Roundup itself is notable enough for its own article (which, in my opinion, it most definitely is). Arathald (talk) 18:42, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Support. Some folks are discussing Roundup as though it were merely the brand name Monsanto has slapped on the chemical glyphosate. In fact, Roundup is a mixture which includes glyphosate along with other significant ingredients. As I recently commented at Talk:Glyphosate, Roundup also includes the surfactant TN-20, which studies have found is responsible for Roundup's unique toxicity. One study found that Roundup's toxicity is not even proportional to the amount of glyphosate included; it is based on other ingredients. I hope that this information changes the votes of some users who voted "Oppose" because they considered Roundup to be merely a brand name for glyphosate. Additionally, I agree with comments such as Arathald's, above, that Roundup is independently notable as a brand. groupuscule (talk) 06:14, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
Hi User:Groupuscule - just fyi, TN20 is the same as POEA that has been discussed here; the greater toxicity of pretty much all glyphosate formulations vis a vis glyphosate alone is well known. Glyphosate itself inhibits an enzyme humans don't have, which is why the safety profile (for humans and other mammals) is so much better than other herbicides. The surfactants and other additives are indeed the nasty stuff. One of the points I have been making here is that more than half the glyphosate being used on the planet today is non-Roundup - what are the surfactants and additives in those formulations? Which are the most widely used ones? I think it benefits are readers to have a picture of all that. Jytdog (talk) 08:00, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
I also think our readers would like to know that. What are the formulations, etc.? I see that that section of the glyphosate section is blank. Gandydancer (talk) 09:17, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
Yes! And you will see there is a tag asking for help expanding it, which I put on there! We all have our hands full including me.Jytdog (talk) 14:13, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
We can include material in both articles if it is justified. These aren't valid arguments to keep it merged.--Canoe1967 (talk) 20:10, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
But what would be the point of having the information repeated in more than one place? Doesn't that just lend itself to having its intended message diverge and become jumbled beyond recognition over time? It seems far less efficient a way to compare and contrast the actions and effects of related chemicals in a uniform way in broad terms, which I think is a necessary thing to do in an article like this, as explained by Plasmic Physics in the section below. Otherwise we'll just end up comparing apples to oranges. AdventurousSquirrel (talk) 22:18, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
This un-merge proposal is not about having "material in both articles", though a degree of overlap will be necessary to give context. The main point here is to have a Roundup article within which the Monsanto brand and the specific Roundup product can be described with more detail about the brand and product, independent of the chemical composition and chemical characteristics of glyphosate. There is a lot of good material written about Monsanto's very successful brand strategy and brand management, for instance, which is not appropriate to the glyphosate article. Binksternet (talk) 22:41, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
I agree with that. But I just mean to say that I think it's important to do a better job of clearly defining the scope of the article in a way that minimizes that overlap so it doesn't end up looking like it did before, perhaps even by making the title something more specific than just "Roundup", to avoid tempting editors to add in information from any story or study that mentions "Roundup" when what really is being talked about is glyphosate or surfactants common to other herbicides as well. AdventurousSquirrel (talk) 06:02, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
Binkster. In your post above, on 20:41, 21 August 2013, you list several sources that would be more appropriate for a Roundup article than a glyphosate article. But one of those sources, the Wildlife Ecotoxicology: Forensic Approaches one, has nothing to do with the Roundup brand, as it is about the toxicity of glyphosate formulations. It seems that even you, who is proposing the split, cannot keep the topics separate (although perhaps I am missing something!) .... the creeping back together seems inevitable. Additionally, I think that the success of Monsanto's strategies has made "roundup" the generic term for glyphosate-based weedkillers - it is effectively "kleenex" or "xerox" now, as discussed here. In other words, would glyphosate even be notable, if it weren't for Roundup? Finally, unless the proposed "Roundup" article would be really strictly limited to something like a business-school case study of marketing a brand, I don't see how the creep could be prevented, and I don't know if such a case study is really encyclopedic.... Jytdog (talk) 07:44, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
The book Wildlife Ecotoxicology: Forensic Approaches, that is, the chapter by Rick Relyea about Roundup's effect on amphibians, discusses at various times the Monsanto Roundup® brand, the Monsanto Roundup Ready® brand, various "Roundup-type formulations of glyphosate"[1], "Roundup Original (containing POEA)"[2], and so on. The author is clear that "the application rate we used... came straight from the bottle of Roundup Original." It was Roundup being tested, not straight glyphosate by itself. The concern of the study is not the properties of glyphosate but the properties of Roundup including its surfactants and other ingredients, all acting together. After testing with Roundup itself, researcher Rick Relyea makes broader conclusions about similar "glyphosate-based herbicides containing the POEA surfactant"[3], which does not render irrelevant the testing he did with Roundup. Relyea is not confused about this topic. Binksternet (talk) 08:21, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
Thanks Binkster. So you would indeed have the Roundup article get into effects, toxicity, etc, not just branding. This is exactly what led to the "creep" issues before. In order to argue that a separate article on Roundup should get into issues of efficacy and toxicity, you need to show that Roundup is chemically different than generic formulations (by definition, generics come into existence when patents expire, so there is nothing to prevent generics from being exact knock-offs). I don't think you can successfully argue that, but I would be interested to see what sourcing you could bring. Information is hard to find, by the way. I did find this, which shows testing that the Australian government had done, of "13 of Australia’s most commonly used .... glyphosate products... (including) ... Roundup and generic varieties..." They stated that "Generally, most Australian-made 450 g/L products use an ethoxylated tallow amine surfactant system" So if POEA is the point of concern, Roundup is not unique in using that. And one wouldn't expect it to be. Jytdog (talk) 13:45, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
It would be a failure in coverage to have the Roundup article avoid a discussion of toxicity. The Relyea paper is a key finding, widely cited.[4] In the glyphosate article, however, Relyea is relegated to a footnote without text, just one reference of a group of four which all follow this sentence: "Glyphosate formulations are much more toxic for amphibians and fish than glyphosate alone." This is insufficient coverage of Relyea who tested Roundup against malathion, Sevin and 2,4-D and made conclusions based on this setup. Relyea did not test Roundup against straight glyphosate chemical, so I have no idea what the reference is doing there. This example demonstrates how the glyphosate article is not doing its job. I think what we have right now is a glyphosate article that does not want to cover any controversies that can be laid at Roundup's door, and arguments here in this un-merge discussion about how controversies should remain at the glyphosate article where, unfortunately, they are not adequately covered. I am getting the sense that some people here are happy that Wikipedia has inadequate coverage of Roundup's controversies. With the articles un-merged, the Roundup brand can be described, and the toxicity experiments which used Roundup specifically, that is, ones which are not covered by the glyphosate article. Binksternet (talk) 16:51, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
OK, so I think you just made the point that a separate Roundup article would fatally overlap with the glyphosate article, which will cover generic versions that are identical to one or more formulations of Roundup. Your suggestions above about focusing the Roundup article on the branding strategies could possibly have worked, but since you clearly intend to also include efficacy and toxicity content, there is no way to prevent the messy thicket that drove the merge in the first place. Please also note that as per WP:PSTS and WP:MEDRS we rely on secondary and tertiary sources for all content, and especially for health-related content. The Relyea article should not be used as a source due to this, as there are lots of reviews on toxicity of glyphosate per se; some reviews on adjuvants/additives, and some on formulations.Jytdog (talk) 18:00, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
So why is Relyea not given a stronger voice at the glyphosate article? Hundreds of authors have cited the study—there must be secondary and tertiary discussion.
You can take my arguments for including Relyea as a criticism of the current state of the glyphosate article, and work from there. Since you admit that the Round brand article has a foundation, the Relyea conclusion should be brought to the glyphosate article. It would be a mistake for you to say that the Roundup brand article cannot be un-merged after your observation that the branding strategies might work as a separate article. Binksternet (talk) 20:16, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Hi binkster, I don't quite follow you. The Relyea article you cited just above, is a primary source and should not be in the article as per WP:PSTS... so I don't understand why you are saying it should be given yet a "stronger voice"... sorry I am not being difficult I really just don't understand. I am not following your other line of thinking either - I said that I could kind of see a basis for a Roundup article focused on its branding etc but that this seems more like a biz school case study, not a wikipedia article - I never said that a Roundup article that was more broad makes any sense... Jytdog (talk) 21:35, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Jytdog, you said, "there are lots of reviews on toxicity of glyphosate per se; some reviews on adjuvants/additives, and some on formulations". I know that you have done thousands of edits re Monsanto-related articles and have an excellent understanding of all the related information. It would help the editing community to get a better grasp of the available information if you would perhaps give us a list of the available reviews. Perhaps you could start a new thread as this one is getting quite hard to work with. Thanks in advance. Gandydancer (talk) 22:12, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
hi gandy. i don't think that "thousands" is accurate, but i have done lots of edits in GM-related articles; and my understanding is only good (not excellent - would that it were) and is still evolving as i learn. The more i have learned about glyphosate formulations the more bewildering the variety becomes, and the more clear it becomes that there is not nearly enough public information, especially about the identity of inactive ingredients (much less their individual toxicities). but I will make a list of sources that i think are really good, in a new section in the glyphosate article Talk page. I will try to do that tonight. There are big holes in the list - you can see in the glyphosate article where i have asked the editing community to kick in content and sources and there has been nada. :( Jytdog (talk) 22:47, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
Thanks. That would be helpful, but right now I am much more interested in the reviews rather than all the studies. Gandydancer (talk) 23:44, 4 September 2013 (UTC) Specifically, I meant effects on fish and amphibians as this question is related to your statement above. Gandydancer (talk) 00:25, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
I am not surprised to find that there actually are not a lot of recent reviews on amphibian toxicity. In fact, the one that I did find states as much and suggests that more studies need to be done. The Relyea study (here [5] would certainly be OK as long as it is noted that the opinions are the author's opinions rather than spoken as a factual statement. Gandydancer (talk) 16:51, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
So what about having a third article, something like EPSPS inhibiting herbicide as suggested in the thread below? That could 1) allow Glyphosate to talk about the chemical characteristics of the active ingredient, 2) allow us to compare and contrast the properties, efficacy and safety of all the various formulations of related herbicides, including Roundup, and 3) allow room for Roundup to contain only information unique to the brand, without any such coverage gap. AdventurousSquirrel (talk) 05:30, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
Jytdog, Please stop accusing editors of being children. I think we are fully capable of editing article content to match the subject of the articles.--Canoe1967 (talk) 08:19, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose. This is a dangerous chemical in the hands of the uninitiated and I like the idea of the common man able to make the connection more readily by the articles having been merged. An article strictly for Round Up would end up this glossy brochure with the noxious stuff toned down by someone somewhere along the way. Keep them attached, please. I use this stuff in a commercial setting daily, it's not something to mess around with.Geremy Hebert (talk | contribs) 09:16, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
Good points but an unmerged article will still link to the article on the main chemical for our readers. If we do as you suggest then the main article will be unbalanced as to NPOV because it will coatrack this one brand. I doubt an article about this brand will be a 'glossy brochure' without being tagged as an advert and trimmed down.--Canoe1967 (talk) 19:43, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Support. Monsanto's Roundup is a very prominent brand. There are many reliable sources talking about this product and Monsanto. This information should not be in the article about the generic product. This follows Wikipedia convention, for example, Tylenol has its own article separate from paracetamol. LK (talk) 08:19, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose not enough specific Roundup information Alex Bakharev (talk) 08:34, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
There was lots of specific material before the merge that was removed in the merge. A copy is at User:Canoe1967/Roundup (herbicide). Since this was the only product for 20+ years then any benefits and drawbacks are noted in this archive.--Canoe1967 (talk) 17:56, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
Not responding; not productive. Jytdog (talk) 18:54, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
I find it as a good response. How do you consider that as not productive?--Canoe1967 (talk) 19:23, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
The claim "There was lots of specific material before the merge that was removed in the merge" is baseless. The old Roundup article that you link to, is at least half comprised of content not specific to Roundup, but rather is general to glyphosate. Content on Roundup that was compliant with wiki policies and guidelines, or that we were able to make compliant, was brought over. Nothing useful was lost. Your claim is baseless - you have shown nothing that was left on the table that was useful. Not one thing. Much less "lots." But you keep repeating this claim. Not productive. Jytdog (talk) 20:09, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
Feel free to remove any unsourced material from the archive then. Once that is done then we can see if there is enough left to either balance the chemical article or outweigh it with spam for the Monsanto version.--Canoe1967 (talk) 23:55, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for the offer but I have no interest in doing that. btw, Wiki polices and guidelines are broader than merely "unsourced." Jytdog (talk) 00:18, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
That is what should have interest before any merge because material was lost to our readers. We can still do it correctly from the archive.--Canoe1967 (talk) 02:30, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
Not responding, not productive. Same reason as above. Jytdog (talk) 02:53, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
What is meant by a comment like that? It seems you have no interest now nor then about which material should be restored.--Canoe1967 (talk) 03:25, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
You continue to attack. I continue to respond that you are making baseless claims and have demonstrated nothing. The endless circle. You could break it by showing this "lots of material" that I left out. Or you could just keep repeating the baseless claim, which I will keep denying. This is not pretty. I think I will go back to not responding for real. Over and out. Jytdog (talk) 03:55, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
Why do you keep accusing me of attacking you when I am merely asking questions that you refuse to answer. The archived RoundUp article is 50kb and the chemical article is 80kb. You have just stated that you have no interest in deciding which material should not have been deleted. You had no problem unilaterally deciding before so why do you have a problem justifying it now?--Canoe1967 (talk) 08:10, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
  • Comment Two different reasons seem to be put forward for splitting. (1) There should be a discussion of Roundup as a brand, its marketing, sales, commercial success, etc. with minimal reference to its chemical composition. This seems quite reasonable to me if there is enough material, which doesn't seem to be established. (2) There should be a discussion of the specific combination of glyphosate and wetting/dispersal agents in Roundup. I don't find this convincing; it seems that all formulations of glyphosate include wetting/dispersal agents, as do many other herbicides and insecticides. The toxicity of such agents, particularly to aquatic life, is to be a generic issue, not specific to either Roundup or glyphosate-based herbicides, so is not an argument for splitting. Peter coxhead (talk) 14:40, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
As I stated above there is lots of material that was lost in the merge. There is an archive at User:Canoe1967/Roundup (herbicide).--Canoe1967 (talk) 18:00, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
I'm quite new to this article, so I read through this archive. I honestly can't see that there is all that much material on Roundup which is independent of glyphosate. Too much of it switches somewhat randomly between the two terms. Given the present quantity of information, I'm inclined to think that JonRichfield's suggestion below has a lot of merit. Peter coxhead (talk) 20:24, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
As I stated earlier. Feel free to trim the repetitive material. Then we can see if there is enough left for a stand alone article or so much that it would spam the main article.--Canoe1967 (talk) 23:59, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Support Having scanned the foregoing largely reasonable points on both sides, including the question of maintaining the separation between proper content of the topics, I think that there is no doubt that the subject matter relevant to the active ingredient is distinct from that referring to the history of the branded product, and should accordingly be kept separate. However, instead of creating a separate article, I think it would be better to include the material on the branded product in the section Monsanto#Glyphosate_herbicides, but also creating a Roundup redir to that section, and of course, including links between that section and the glyphosate article. Having the branded product "article" in the form of a redir also would assist in discouraging subject matter in the wrong place. Then there could also be a Ridder (section of Bayer) article, with similar links. It might be easier to maintain discipline in excluding technical material from sections of a company article than from a separate branded product article, reserving such material for the Glyphosate article. JonRichfield (talk) 11:34, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Support The brand and its economics, management, and controversies are a not the same topic as the active chemical ingredient. The article content and readers' expectations as to the article content are not the same. SPECIFICO talk 00:13, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Support. The glyphosate article now is already a Wikipedia:UNDUE overloaded Wikipedia:Coatrack with unbalanced material about RoundUp, including the logo. If we are going to do that then we should include logos for all brands. Our readers will just think it is a cheap advert for Monsanto otherwise. We have five articles for Salt water so no reason not to split this one off to show the aspects of the brand. It was the only brand for 20+ years and has a huge history that goes with that.--Canoe1967 (talk) 17:12, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
  • Support. I agree with SPECIFICO- the product and its main chemical are two different things. Elmmapleoakpine (talk) 23:49, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Motions before Discussion[edit]

I've split this off to keep the RfC being bogged down with irrelevant side tracks, IRWolfie- (talk) 11:00, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

You are the one that brought up both issues. I don't suppose you would like to list the primary sources below. If you feel these issues are irrelevant then why did you use them as an argument?--Canoe1967 (talk) 20:24, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
Me saying an article is a hodge podge mess does not mean I think you need to go start an RfC question on listing the sources. It does not follow, IRWolfie- (talk) 09:54, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
That isn't an RfC. You brought up that it had too many primary sources. Should we list all the sources and remove the ones you think should not be included as being primary? Thee are 138 sources now. You could just list the numbers of the ones you think are primary. If we have consensus that those shouldn't be included then we can remove the material related to them. That would develop the article as well, which is your second objection to an unmerge.--Canoe1967 (talk) 13:10, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
"Thee are 138 sources now". There are no sources because the article is a redirect. IRWolfie- (talk) 14:03, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
See the last version in history. Click the history button at the top of the page and then select the last version before the merge to view the article in its final state before the merge.--Canoe1967 (talk) 14:06, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Unmerge so we can work on it[edit]

  • If you want to work on the Roundup article, choose one or more historic versions and copy them into your user space. We are not going to un-merge the article before this un-merge RfC is concluded. Binksternet (talk) 20:41, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
What is the problem with unmerging it first? Many arguments for keeping it merged are problems with the article. If we unmerge it we can address those problems and keep it as one history database and not a second one from user space.--Canoe1967 (talk) 21:11, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
Because considering the previous discussions, you need consensus before unmerging. You can address the issues in your userspace. IRWolfie- (talk) 09:14, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
Any user space creation would split the histories. This was fine as an article for years and the merge discussion was far too minimal. It should be unmerged to correct your issues with primary sources and article repair needed. The aim of the project is to expand and split, not collapse and delete.--Canoe1967 (talk) 21:30, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
Are you claiming no consensus based on the two votes above that support it?--Canoe1967 (talk) 21:32, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Support petrarchan47tc 03:37, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
  • 'Oppose - this is the opposite of how articles grow! There is plenty of work to be done on this article - if and when any section becomes too big, we can discuss a split at that time. I have seen no one make an argument that the article is too long now and that it makes sense, content-wise, to cut it down by splitting off Roundup (or anything else). Jytdog (talk) 11:15, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
It isn't the fact that it is too long. It is the fact that much material was removed during the merge. If all that material were added then it would look like a Monsanto spam article. We merge when all material fits, not to shrink and remove material.--Canoe1967 (talk) 12:50, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
Canoe, I did the merge and I worked hard to preserve everything that was not OR, was NPOV, and was well sourced, (and for some content, I kept it but found better sources), and I and others have added lots of material too. If there is material that I left out that you feel should be put back in, please bring it, with sources! Really, there is plenty of room to improve the article. There is no need to be inflammatory or make accusations about intent, so please stop using ABF language, like calling it "spam" with respect to naming Monsanto or Roundup in the context of discussing Roundup formulations. It is just common sense, and a matter of fact, to call Roundup formulations, "Roundup." Additionally, readers expect to find discussion of brands - especially Roundup - here. Other brand names and formulations are named too, and are not fleshed out yet, but should be. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 13:17, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
One person doing a merge should not have happened in such a drastic way. It is too selective by one editor's POV about what should be merged and what shouldn't be. The material should have sought consensus for removal first. After that removal then all the remaining material should have been merged. If there is too much remaining it would seem like a spam article to our readers and in that case there shouldn't be a merge. That is why this article should be unmerged, discussed/repaired, and then decided to move the entire contents or leave it as an article.--Canoe1967 (talk) 13:48, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
Things happen on Wikipedia when individual editors do them. Lots of people were watching and did stuff to do. more importantly - if there is material from the old roundup article that was left out and that you feel should be included, please bring it. Please focus on improving the article. Again canoe, please do not personalize this - what is the point you are making, in now criticizing how I did the merge months ago, "alone", with my "POV"? Again, this is what you promised to stop doing! Please stick to discussing content. Please. Content. Improving the article. Please.Jytdog (talk) 14:22, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
The merge was done incorrectly. The article should have been trimmed according to discussion. After that trim the last accepted historical version should have been merged. If I were to take the last historical version as it is now and replace it with the material in the chemical article then it would probably be reverted. One editor cherry picking his choices of material is not the correct method. My method would not involve a POV. It would just be a copy/paste of consensus material. This is why the last historical version should be restored and discussed before any merger.--Canoe1967 (talk) 14:57, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Not responding. Not productive.Jytdog (talk) 15:42, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

What do you mean? I thought this whole page was productively discussing how many feel it should be its own article and the merge was done incorrectly.--Canoe1967 (talk) 15:48, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
Whether or not the merge was done correctly is not the main issue here. What we are doing is determining the next step forward. Jytdog will not be chastised for performing a merge which looked at the time (last year) like it was well supported. The article will not be un-merged prior to the conclusion of the un-merge discussion! Let's concentrate on discussing the benefit to the reader of a) having a separate article on the Roundup brand, or b) working the Roundup brand more thoroughly into the glyphosate article. Binksternet (talk) 19:13, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
I see no reason we can't unmerge it before we discuss what material should be merged. If too much material remains after we edit it then then it will create a coatrack of the other article. This has been brought up as an argument to keep it merged: 'too many problems with the article'. Articles should be fixed, not deleted and merged. We can't fix it while it is stuck in history. We would all need to open each version individually and edit independently.--Canoe1967 (talk) 19:31, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
You keep returning to this point so I have taken the liberty of putting two versions of the article in your userspace. Please see User:Canoe1967/Roundup. The first version was from April 2009 and the second version was from July 2012. The diff of those two versions is here—it shows that a lot of material was removed, bringing the second version down to about half the size of the first. You are free to edit this material in your userspace as you choose, and when you are done you can request that the page be deleted entirely. Note that categories are commented out which is how all work should be performed in user sandboxes such as this one. Binksternet (talk) 20:12, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
That would cause a history split so I moved the entire page to User:Canoe1967/Roundup (herbicide) (talk) 21:16, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

List primary sources, or at least count them[edit]

  • This suggestion does not need a vote, it just needs action. Binksternet (talk) 20:41, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
Correct. I removed my vote above and requested that the editor that didn't like the primary sources to list the ones he has issues with.--Canoe1967 (talk) 21:07, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
I started the list at the top. User talk:Canoe1967/Roundup (herbicide) has a dedicated section if those that claim there are too many primary sources wish to finish it.--Canoe1967 (talk) 00:04, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Unmerge to a different article with a broader scope[edit]

In the case that there is not enough information on Roundup specifically, it would be better to collect similar products together. When enough information is accumulated thereafter, relevant articles specific to one particular product could then be split off. In this case, as well as providing a useful method of comparison, the collective article acts as a depository for prospective stub product-articles.

I suggest that the collective article should be named Phosphonic herbicide. Other names are welcome, although, at this time, the choice of a name is a different matter. This subsurvey is primarily concerned with the unmerging to a collective article as described above. Plasmic Physics (talk) 10:34, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

You are free to create List of herbicides. If some of those are large and notable enough they may need to have their own articles to avoid spamming the list. Disney has is own article to avoid spamming animation articles.--Canoe1967 (talk) 13:14, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
A mere list hardly satisfies the proposal, the article is meant to record, discuss, and contrast (in that order). Plasmic Physics (talk) 14:23, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
That is an interesting and creative proposal! But it appears that there is only one other member of that class - at least according to this. Are you aware of others? Jytdog (talk) 11:11, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
We don't have to settle on that name, for the sake of argument, how about EPSPS inhibiting herbicide, or some variant thereof? That is more general and would still qualify under the above proposal. Plasmic Physics (talk) 13:47, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
This should actually be discussed elsewhere. If someone wishes to create a new article and then merge this on into it then that should be a different merge discussion. This discussion should be about splitting it back into the original article.--Canoe1967 (talk) 14:09, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
As I see it, the result of this discussion directly affects the main unmerge discussion. If I were to move it elsewhere, and discuss it in parallel, then the outcome would become a moot point if the main discussion is closed first - it will just be another motion lost in bureaucracy. Plasmic Physics (talk) 14:23, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
This discussion is about unmerging to a stand alone article first. Others have brought up the fact that the article needs work. Once those two are complete then we can discuss merger again to other articles if there is too little material left to stand on its own.--Canoe1967 (talk) 15:44, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.