Talk:Rouran Khaganate

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Untitled[edit]

Ktsquare, why did you remove (柔然) from the article? -- Zestauferov

It was a mistake, fixed now. kt2 15:34, 29 Sep 2003 (UTC)


The article states that 'the derogatory term Juan Juan (wg) or Ruan Ruan (py) (蠕蠕 lit. meaning "Wriggling insects") and Ru Ru (茹茹 lit. meaning "Fodder") remained in modern usage despite being derived by Emperor Taiwu of Northern Wei who waged war against and intended to intimidate the confederacy.'

Is there any need to retain 'Juan Juan' as the location of the main article? Would it not be preferable to move the main article to 'Rouran (柔然)', which appears to be closer to the name they used for themselves -- with redirects, of course. I don't know how acceptable this would be to historians who are attached to familiar terms, but in a modern age where derogatory names for any race are frowned upon, surely it is better to show a little respect for a group of bygone people!

Bathrobe

moved. I.H.S.V. (talk) 21:23, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

Evidence[edit]

This article makes some odd claims. For instance,

"(Pinyin: 蠕蠕 lit. meaning "Wriggling insects")"

It is trivial, but strictly speaking it does not. No big deal because it is close enough.

"one of their member tribes, the Hua (who they placed, at the head of the Uighurs in 460), later appeared in Europe as the Eurasian Avars, the gross oversimplification that they were synonymous with the Avars has become widespread."

But this is a problem. What is the evidence that (a) the Hua were one of their member tribes, that (b) they were placed at the head of the Uyghurs, and (c) that the Hua and Hua alone formed the Avars? Of course the Turks claimed that the Avars were their slaves so it is one of the few documented links between China and Europe.

"Some scholars claim that the Korean pronunciation Yuyon is a more archaic form and hence closer to the original pronunciation."

Can anyone name a scholar who makes this claim? I'll accept anyone in English, Chinese, Korean, German or Japanese. I'll even struggle through some French if need be.

"Little is known of their ruling elite, which the Weishu cited as an offshoot of the Xianbei."

Actually it doesn't. It says they are an offshoot of the Donghu (the Xianbei also being an offshoot of the Donghu, the difference is not big).

"Though they admitted the Asena into their federation,"

Evidence of this claim? Anyone? As above. Lao Wai 13:50, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

I recommend you to ask User:Zestauferov, who added quite a lot of the Hua information. I.H.S.V. (talk) 05:58, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
I know some answers. The Encyclopaedia Britanica 1951 edition entry under "Turk" mentions that the Asena disliking the rule of the Wei sought protection under the Juan Juan Federation in 433 until 545. Kaz 01:53, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Oh! Also I know that Modern Chinese pronunciation is not a trustworthy guide to the sounds used long ago, but that a reconstruction technique looking at dialects like Amoy, and the fossilizations in Hiragana and Hangeul are the best guides to reconstructiong the earliest possible sounds in proto-sinitic used by Liu Qiyu. Hiragana reflects the sounds of the Chinese Characters in the 5th century, and Hangeul reflect their sounds in the 15th century. I learned all this from different articles on Wikipedia.Kaz 01:53, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
P.S. If you want to help in the Avar-Turk-Uighur-Rouran-Hua problem then please join in below. So far I have not been able to find any reference that the Uighur even existed until some time after the Rouran, so Mr Lao if you have some knowledge please share below. Kaz 01:58, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

more information including list of rulers[edit]

http://www.chinaknowledge.de/History/Altera/rouran.html

Hua - Link[edit]

First paragraph: "Because one of their member tribes, the Hua (who they placed at the head of the Uyghurs in 460) later appeared in Europe as the Eurasian Avars," The word 'Hua' was linked to the disambiguation page of 'Hua', where you can read:

"Hua is:

     the self designation (endonymic ethnicon) used by the Hephthalites"

This is obviously a contradiction. Also the other points of the disambiguation page contain no reference to the Avars. The Hephtalites may have called themselves 'Hua', but that has nothing to do with the Avar-Hua of this 'Rouran' article. At least there is no explanation about a connection between Hephtalite-Hua, Avar-Hua and Rouran, and the link to the article about the Avar-Hua is lacking anyway.

I would advise to not just place links wildly, but instead to look up first, whereto the links would lead. Because of this contradiction I have deleted the link of the word 'Hua'. Somebody might clear this up and then relink the word. 15:54, 30 May 2006 62.178.78.205

Well, I know that the Uar were the ethnic majority of the Hephthalite confederacy, and Enoki identified these as the Hua, but as for the very confusing JuanJuan/Avars/Uighur/Hephthalite connections which are all over the internet, the sources for this are elusive. http://www.hostkingdom.net/siberia.html mentions Avar rulers names which look chinese, but none of them appear to be on the list. Maybe this man knows something?

A-na-kuei..........................................522-552
K'u-t'i............................................552-554
An-lo-ch'en........................................554- ? with ?, preceding ?

Can anyone work out what these names refer to? Anlushan led a rebellion in 755 AD so "An-lo-ch'en" can not be him. Kaz 22:46, 31 August 2006 (UTC)


KERMIKHIONS[edit]

Very interestingly... Religion "tengrizm" (!) ;-) And about Proto-Mongol/Syanbi language anything is not present. By the way, in Caucasian-Avarian language avarag "the prophet, the messenger" and Avaristan "land of Avars", avaral "the Avars (Caucasian Avars)" means. See: Avarsko-Russkij slovar'//by red.M. Saidov. Moscow. 1967, p. 25. And still... In the Byzantian sources are mentioned people Kermikhions, living among Avars. In Iranian languages kerm is "worm", and in language of Avesta (also in the Armenian language) karmir is "red". Red paint in olden time did of a special kind of worms, therefore here is no contradiction,for example, in Russian cherv' (= cservy in transcription of Magyar language) - the worm, but chervonnyj (chervonniy) means "brightly red". In Caucasian-avarian language, khumur /plural. khurmal/ (this dialect word) is the "wolf" and a worm living in a body of the person (khomor, plural. khormal) means (see for "wolf" Avarsko-Russkij slovar'//by red.M. Saidov. Moscow. 1967, p.530; and for Khomor "a worm living in a body of the person", see: P.A. Saidova. Dialektologicheskij slovar' avarskogo jazyka. Moskva. "Nauka"., 2008, pp. 363, 382). And now compare: Mittel-Mongolian qoroqai, Mongolian written qor-qai, Baoan GorGei, Dagur χorugw, Mongor xorGui "a worm, an insect". In Kalmyk the basis xor "maggot of Horsefly". In Turkic languages it are related: Old-Turkic qurt, Turkmen Gurt, Turkish kurt, Khakass xurt, Chuvash xort "worm". (See Starostin S.A. Altajskaja problema i proishozhdenije japonskogo jazyka. Moskva. "Nauka", 1991, pp 54,186) And in Turkish, Turkmen and the some othwer Turkic languages there is an additional value "wolf". In Persian kerm "worm" (< indoeurupean *kur-mi-), Afghan (pashto) khamar "mythological snakes, a dragon". Also in Finn language is available (kurmu), but this probably Indo-Iranian loan. The ROURAN...De Groot the name of this people writes as Dsu-dsu (Dsut-dsut, Dsurdsut). Marquart specifies, that in «Sun-shu» same people is called "Da-Dan"or a "Dandan". In G. E. Grumm-Grzhimajlo's opinion, Rouran (Zhouzhan) it at all the name of the state, and a nickname, «on accord given by emperor Toba-Dao who wished to tell her, that as neighbours Ruan-Ruan are so unpleasant and restless, as insects Ruan-Ruan». (see: Grumm-Grzhimajlo G. Е. Zapadnaja Mongolija i Urjankhajskij kraj. Т.II. Leningrad, 1926, p. 27). The etnic Name "KHOR" were the general name of Proto-Mongols - Dung-hu (see: Gumilev L. N. «Hunnu». Sankt-Peterburg. "Tajm–aut kompas", 1993, p. 31). Also the mythological ancestor Khorin Buryats - is "KHORIDOY". Among Mongols were known also KHORCHIN (khor and probably mongolian chinuo/chino/chon "wolf" and CHAKHAR (from dzha "red" and khor). And at last the last... At Proto-Mongols Wuhuan (O-huan) a place dwellings of spirits of ancestors the RED MOUNTAIN (!) was considered. (see: Mify Narodov Mira. Т.I Мoskva. Sovetskaja enciklopedija. 1991,p.170) I shall remind, that the Afghani city of Kunduz is known as Wuhuan, and later as War-waliz, that means "City of Avars". The state symbol of the Caucasian Avars (Caucasian Avar Khanate) according to Georgian geographer Vakhushti Bagrationi "the wolf with a banner on a background of mountains" (17-18 centuries). (see: Vakhushti. Istorija Gruzii, pp. 553,641,653// Institut rukopisej imeni K. Kelidze. Akademija Nauk Gruzinskoj SSR. f. N., № 2079). Actually AVAR in Caucasian Avaristan it is KHUNZAKH which has no translation except for as "at Huns". --81.24.80.233 (talk) 14:39, 22 March 2009 (UTC)


Pay attention to a fragment from the Byzantian source: Turkic qaghan has become angry on Byzantines and has declared, that it is necessary not to cut this people (Avars, Uarkhonites) a sabre, but to tramble down as Ants (=INSECTS) by horses : "Bu gec kalisin sebebi, Gok Turkleri fiili savasa istirak icin tazyik eden Bizansin gonderdigi muteaddid elcilerden biri olan Valentinosu 576’da Aral Golu havalisindeki Turk bolgesinde karsilayan Turk prensi Bizans’i, Gok Turklerin af edilmez hasimlari olan Avarlari (Varhonitai = Uar-huni) himaye etmekle ve kilicla degil, atlarin ayaklari altinda karinca gibi ezilerek oldurulmegi hakeden bu kavme barinacak yer vermekle sucluyordu ki, bu dogru idi" (See: Kafesoglu, Ibrahim. Asya Turk devletleri // Turk Dunyasi El Kitabi. I cilt, Turk Kulturunu Arastirmalari Enstitusu. Ikinci Baski. Ankara. 1992. s.130). From this citation it is visible, that Tyurkyuts (Old-Turks) also named their insects, but itself so did not name. From here follows, that "Khor's", they are Proto-Mongols, but not Turks. To me it is not clear, why all time try to expose enemies of Avars as Avars. That is an origin of their enemies to write down to their victims. Avars were attacked by Old-Turks (Tukyu) and Tele tribes. Subsequently the part of Tele tribes began to name itself Uigurs (hueyhe/hueyhu).--81.24.80.233 (talk) 16:48, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

THE UGOR'S (UGRIC PEOPLES)[edit]

You here constantly write "Uigur", and actually this tribe Ugor/Ogor (the Finno-Ugor) as "zabender", "koczagir" and "tarniakh". In Caucasian-Avarian agaraw is "the relative close, making related", in Afghan-Pashto wageri "People" in other old languages ghur is "konfederation". Ghur - the Territory and city in Afghanistan, whence have intruded GHURDZHARS in India in structure of Hephthalites.--81.24.80.233 (talk) 14:57, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

You are mixing things up. The similarity in name of the Turkic Uigur and the Uralic (Finno-Ugric) Ugrians is simply coincidental, and anyway they are entirely different peoples. Apart from that, what's your point?--Joostik (talk) 15:24, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Article badly needs MAJOR work and referencing[edit]

This article cites no sources and is obviously a mix of material from different sources. It needs major work to turn it into a reliable encyclopedia article. I will try to get back to it soon if I can find the time - but, maybe others could start checking information and finding reliable references for claims, please? John Hill (talk) 07:37, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Yujiulü Anluochen[edit]

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The article Yujiulü Anluochen has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

Everything in this article is in Rouran Khaganate, unreferenced article without unique content

While all contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

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historical time period[edit]

the artical states that this historical time period of this nation state was the early middle ages when in fact the majority of the time was late classical the country went from 330 to 555 ad and historians classify the year 500 as the begining of the middle ages so only 55 years of the countries history was early middle ages. 69.208.14.63 (talk) 13:31, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Modern Mongolian alternative name[edit]

Modern Mongolian alternative name is needless. Mongols appeared in 7th century. Shiwei was not in the Mongolian Plateau. This alternative name had no historical value. Wikipedia is not a dictionary. Thank you. Takabeg (talk) 05:36, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Name[edit]

Takabeg (talk) 11:26, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Hi, I think study of Mongolian history is continuing in Mongolia. In, 2000, used term Jou-jan, since 2005, use name Nirun. Nirun (in Modern Mongolian Нуруу) is means "human's back", because it is described in "Legend of the Ergune Khun" (Эргүнэ-Хуны домог).--MongolWiki (talk) 03:50, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
Chinese character transcriptions such as Juan-juan, ruan-ruan don't represent truly names. Because they divide have two or three side one name. Example, How can people understand Meng-gu is Mongol, if they known chinese transcription?--MongolWiki (talk) 03:50, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
Thanks. But we are seeking for the common name in English language, not in Mongolia :) Takabeg (talk) 03:59, 22 September 2011 (UTC)