Talk:Roxelana

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Image heavy?[edit]

Does anyone think this page goes a bit overboard with images? Spartan198 (talk) 06:32, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

It totally is. I tried to remove some of the more uselesse ones, but an IP quickly restored them. I'm not getting in an edit-war with some fanboy over that kind of BS... -- Imladros (talk) 22:01, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

portrayed in movies and fiction[edit]

we can expand where she was in movies and fiction. I remember seeing a movie about her about a year ago. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sp0 (talkcontribs) 00:12, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Her relationship with the Sultan is main focus of "Sultan", a Turkish telenovella (i.e. TV-drama with a very high but fixed number of episodes), which was very popular in Eastern Europe and probably many other places last year. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:130:400:1660:64C7:A290:BE58:14FA (talk) 23:08, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Rename proposal[edit]

As per all sources I could find, her name was Anastasia. Besides, she was a Ruthenian rather than Polish lady, so "Lisovska" seems more appropriate. But these two things can be decided later and separately from the main issue, that this person is also known as Roxelana and the article should be called as such. I just post this here for now to solicit preliminary opinions, and I will post a proposal at WP:RM. Regards, --Irpen 05:03, August 10, 2005 (UTC)

Agree. Roxelana is definitely the better name. Everyking 06:28, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
Aleksandra is a mistake. I think it's time to switch it to Roxelana. Sashazlv 03:04, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

I see that nobody objects. Sashazlv 04:53, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

Will post at WP:RM. Guys, please keep track of announcement boards at both RU and UA portals (two boards per each), there is a couple of similar discussions. Thanks! --Irpen 03:15, August 11, 2005 (UTC)

I think the article should be named Hurrem Sultan and Roxelana should be mentioned below. After all, that was her name.--142.105.56.155 (talk) 03:49, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Rename official voting[edit]

This is a really weird case when a person is under the name that is less conventional, and an unconvential name includes an incorrect first name on top of it. Sashazlv & Irpen 04:50, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

Move to Roxelana

  • support. One of proposal's initiators. --Irpen 04:57, August 12, 2005 (UTC)
  • support. Sashazlv 04:28, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose (but only slightly, since I prefer the name of Roxolana. Halibutt 07:37, August 18, 2005 (UTC)
I would not mind Roxolana. But do the google test and see that the world uses RoxElana for whatever reason. Please think it over. --Irpen 14:45, August 18, 2005 (UTC)
Weak support then. Halibutt 15:17, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

This article has been renamed after the result of a move request. violet/riga (t) 22:08, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

Aleksandra?[edit]

Are there any serious English language sources, other than WP mirrors, which call her "Aleksandra"? If so, please bring them up here. Thanks! --Irpen 21:14, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

No, probably not. At least, don't consider my last edit on this page as a standpoint in this matter; I added it only because I saw it in the categories - without reflecting upon it. If it is erroneous, it should, of course, be removed. /The Phoenix 14:27, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

OK, I removed it until someone finds some supporting info for this name. I don't mind having several names in the article of course. I removed it only because the name seems simply incorrect. --Irpen 15:56, 19 September 2005 (UTC)


Cultural resemblance[edit]

Newly added:

Nowadays the figure of Roxelana is an important historical and social symbol regarding the issues of Ukrainian woman and international sex slavery.

Any refs, especially regarding sex slavery. I never heard about this connection which doesn't mean that there is none. --Irpen 19:30, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Reworded.
Відносно цитування: неодноразово зустрічав образ Роксолани в журналістських матеріалах про наших б..., що працюють за кордоном. Це досить зрозуміло й за елементарною логікою. Навіть якби я й зберіг ці посилання, думаю, не варто розвивати цю тему для широкої міжнародної авдиторії. Хто розуміє - задовольниться тим, що вже вказано. Хто ні - нехай думає, що тема міжнародного секс-невільництва не так уже й повязана з сучасною Україною ;) Чи може, викинути зовсім цей блок? AlexPU

No one is saying that the problem of sex-slavery has no connection with Ukraine. I was just surprized that this problem is associated with Roxolana. Even if someone makes such a connection, her cultural legacy in Ukraine is mainly defined by Zagrebelny's book rather than by a more modern phenomenon of women being forced into prostitution. So, having this section with just this might mislead the reader into thinking that this is her most significant legacy. I would say, remove this in toto, if you ask me. A different option would be to write an expaned section on her cultural legacy, where this could be mentioned but not as the only or even the most significant thing she is remembered for. If anyone can write it, fine with me. --Irpen 07:10, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

OK, let us leave this passage only here waiting for its developing author. AlexPU 15:31, 14 November 2005 (UTC)


In fiction, Red Sonya was her sister[edit]

Red Sonya was her sister in the short story The Shadow of the Vulture by Robert E. howard. Enda80 14:32, 29 April 2006 (UTC)Enda80

Ethno-religious origin[edit]

Although I have read some of the primary sources dealing with Roxelana, I have not read all of them. But from what I have read, both primary and secondary materials, the indications are that she was by origin a Ukrainian of the Orthodox Christian confession. I know of no evidence that she was Jewish and think this unlikely. Certainly, primary authorities, contemporaries like Michael the Lithuanian, who was probably a Ruthenian nobleman, would not have claimed her for their own were she Jewish. Therefore, until such evidence be brought forth, I think it best to delete reference in the article to any possible Jewish background. Mike Stoyik 22:32, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Image:Khourrem.jpg[edit]

This image appears to be a more contemporary painting than the other ones shown here. Should it be included in the article? (I'm not an expert, just found it at the page for Suleiman the Magnificent). DavidRF (talk) 15:53, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Name[edit]

Has anyone else noticed that her letter to Sigismund is signed "Haseki Sultan"? Wouldn't that imply then that Haseki, rather than Hürrem or Roxelana, was the name by which she went in life, at least in an official capacity? Dlayiga (talk) 06:25, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Oh. Nevermind. I'm retarded. Haseki sultan was her title. I'm still trying to figure out what it says just above that. There's so much discussion about her proper name, i wonder what she'd use to refer to herself. Dlayiga (talk) 11:25, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Did she have the title Empress?[edit]

The current article say she was Empress. The position may be equivalent, but if she never had this title, the article shouldn't claim so. --Aciram (talk) 22:24, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

She did not have the title Empress. That title did not excist in the Ottoman Empire. The highest title for a woman in the Imperial Harem was the mother of the sultan, the Valide sultan. The wives of the sultan had no position which equals that of an empress. The highest title of an consort to the sultan was kadin, and there where four kadins, not one, so that position can not equal an empress. Rather, the rank of valide sultan can be considered more equal to that of an empress. In any case, titles should not be translated, and the article gives incorrect information by referreing to her in a title which she did not have and which in fact did not excist in the Ottoman empire. If she had the title of kadin, then that tiel can be used. The title of empress should be removed from the article. --Aciram (talk) 13:14, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
I have now removed the title. If it is introduced again, it must be referenced. --Aciram (talk) 13:23, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
The same problem again: she can not be referred to as an empress, if that title did not excist in the Ottoman empire. This must be referenced or removed from the article. I have placed a question regarding this on Wikipedia:Reference desk/Humanities. If this title is not referenced or confirmed there, it will be removed again. --Aciram (talk) 15:11, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
Following the same logic, shouldnt she be named Hurrem Sultan, since that's who she was in the Ottoman Empire. Roxelana can be mentioned in the explanation part later.--142.105.56.155 (talk) 03:51, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Death[edit]

She must have been poisoned by Nurbanu Sultan. You know, that she was poisoned is true. But she was most probably poisoned by Nurbanu Sultan and Rüstem Pasha. Because at that time Nurbanu Sultan and Rüstem Pasha's relationship grew more and more because of Mahidevran Haseki Sultan. Let them, Selim was Mahidevran Sultan's side. I don't mean he was an enemy of his mother - he was mentioned with Sarkhosh Selim, how can he be? - but he was probably affected by Sehzade Mustafa like the youngest Cihangir, do you not think so? Suppose that you never have your step out of the palace, that you are affected by your step-brother is normal I think. Please answer me... Thanks User:Gerçek tarih 12:33, 7 June 2011 (UTC)


Nurabnu was her daughter in law,Nurbanu was the Wife of Selim II and Rüstem Pasha her daughter Mirhimah Sultan's Husband What you talking a Bullshit.

Selim II,was like his Mother...Face and Charakter and he do not like Mahidevran... He gave her a little bit Money as she came to him and ask them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dilek2 (talkcontribs) 01:50, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Copy paste move[edit]

Someone has attempted several times to copy-paste move this article to the title Hürrem. If someone wants to start a discussion about moving this article to that title formally, that is fine, but one can't just copy-paste the text from this article over the redirect simply because one wishes to see the article renamed. Please do this the right way. --Jayron32 15:37, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Who has invented this name Alexandra Anastasia Lisowska?[edit]

There is almost no evidence of her life before her time in the Ottoman palace, so did someone find her 15th century identity papers where this name was written. How is this information even known?DragonTiger23 (talk) 19:02, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

[1] Surtsicna (talk) 19:06, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

I am not questioning that this name is used by modern authors but historically this name has probably no base.DragonTiger23 (talk) 07:46, 17 April 2013 (UTC) But I don't know for sure maybe it was documented? DragonTiger23 (talk) 17:31, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

hidden categry (?) now deleted, and wrong anyway[edit]

Category:Articles containing Arabic-language text is now redlnked, I can't find it in the main list, maybe in a template? But it's Arabic SCRIPT, the language is Ottoman, not Arabic.....Skookum1 (talk) 12:05, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Requested move[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Favonian (talk) 16:23, 28 April 2014 (UTC)


RoxelanaHürrem Sultan – Her official royal name is Hürrem Sultan, she is also known by this nickname (Roxelana). Many Ottoman sultanas were known by some nicknames in other countries. For example Roxelana's daughter, Mihrimah Sultan, is also known as "Cameria" or Mahidevran Sultan is also known as "Rosne Pranvere", but we should only use their more famous names as in Mihrimah and Mahidevran, so I think we should move "Roxelana" to "Hürrem Sultan". This is the name that she is known with as the wife of the Sultan and her most common name. She is more famous with the name "Hürrem". --Relisted. Armbrust The Homunculus 10:50, 20 April 2014 (UTC) Keivan.fTalk 15:39, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

  • Comment. I would venture to suggest that in English-speaking countries she is more commonly known as Roxelana. She's far more famous than either of the other women you mention. And per WP:COMMONNAME we use the most common name in reliable English-language sources. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:57, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
    • She is more commonly known as Roxelana? I don't think like this. Because Roxelana is a European nickname that is used in some sources for her we can't say that this is the common name. I can say that Alexandra is also her common name but it's not true. Her most common name is "Hürrem" in many nations.Keivan.fTalk 17:39, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
      • We use common name in English-language sources. It doesn't matter whether it's a nickname. If it's the common name then that's what we use. Neither does it matter what she's called in countries where English is not the primary language. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:48, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
        • But I really think that it matters. English WP is not like any other Wikipedia. It's completely an international Wiki as English language is an international language. Many other users from different nations edit articles here and they're not from USA, UK, Canada or Australia. I really don't understand what do you mean from English-language sources. Because she is called in different books or plays with different names we can't say which is the most common one. She is also called as "Roxolona", "Roxelane", "Rossa" or "Ruzica" or even as "Khurram", "Khourrem" and "Karima". I think the name "Hürrem" is really better for this article, it is the most common one.Keivan.fTalk 13:43, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
          • As stated below, if you believe that Hürrem Sultan is her common name in English-language sources then you need to prove that. If it is her common name in non-English-language sources (which may well be the case) then that is completely irrelevant to this discussion. WP:USEENGLISH. I'm not sure what you don't understand about English-language sources - they're sources written in the English language! As opposed to Turkish, Arabic, Persian, French, Italian or whatever. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:28, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
            • [2], [3], [4], [5], [6]. OK, here are some sources. And also I should tell you that I don't say she is just known as Hürrem, no. She is referred to as Hürrem, Khurram, Roxelana, Roxolana, Roxelane, Karima, Alexandra and etc, but Hürrem is also common in English language so it can be a good title for the article.Keivan.fTalk 10:43, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Relisting comment To determine the WP:COMMONNAME we need reliable English-language sources. The discussion didn't contain anyone until relisting. Armbrust The Homunculus 10:50, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose I don't see any convincing arguments here. When I do Google Book-searches I get about 8,000 hits for "Hürrem Sultan" but 12,000 for "Roxelana". There's a further 9,000 for "Roxolana". Nicknames are common, including exonyms. I don't see any reason to give royal consorts special treatment. If anything, compare with Saladin, Averroes and Avicenna. Peter Isotalo 23:32, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
    • Peter Isotalo, how? When I do Google Book-searches (the same that you have done) I get about 8,020 hits for "Hürrem Sultan" but 9,250 (not 12,000) for "Roxelana" and 6,350 (not 9000) for "Roxolana". As you can see and as I said above Hürrem is also common in English. So dear Zyma, when Hürrem and Roxelana are both common why we can't use Hürrem Sultan for the title? I also gave some English sources above as another user wanted.Keivan.fTalk 16:24, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
      • Well, even with differing results, it still means more hits for "Roxelana" (including variants and different spellings). I don't see any convincing arguments other than that you personally prefer "Hürrem Sultan". Peter Isotalo 16:36, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
        • Dear Peter Isotalo, I really don't understand, what do you mean from convincing arguments? As stated below, I had a discussion with "Necrothesp" and s/he wanted me to show English sources and I did it as you can see. She is also referred to as Hürrem, so if it's common, why not? It can be the title of the article. And of course I personally prefer "Hürrem Sultan" and it seems that you personally prefer "Roxelana" and it doesn't seem to be a good reason for your "oppose". Also, I think more hits (not many more) for just "Roxelana" but not for the other variants and different spellings of it.Keivan.fTalk 18:33, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
          • Actually, spelling variants count. We're discussing whether it should be the Turkish term or the one more recognizable in Europe and to English-speakers. We're not discussing how the name should be spelled, so "Roxelana" or "Roxolana" really doesn't matter. Also, Wikipedia has a policy for naming articles. The idea is to keep article titles predictable. The arguments that support "Roxelana" is a combination of WP:COMMONNAME (most common name in reliable sources is preferred) and WP:USEENGLISH (which favors English over non-English terms). I honestly don't have a personal preference here. Peter Isotalo 19:45, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
            • So you mean that under WP:USEENGLISH we should use English names for the titles of articles and because of this "Roxelana" should be the title of this article under that policy. OK, but in the examples you gave including Avicenna the name is the Latinized form of Ibn Sina. If we have a Latinized form of "Hürrem", shouldn't we use it instead of Roxelana? And another thing I want to know is that because both "Roxelana" and "Hürrem" are used in English sources we should use "Roxelana" because it's Latin, is it true? I think you wanted to tell it to me.Keivan.fTalk 14:51, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Roxelana is common in English and history books. Also, I agree with Peter Isotalo. --Zyma (talk) 02:43, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose. On balance above, the existing name is the more common, and I'm fairly confident that if we examine the reasons for the Google discrepancies (their algorithm is more complex than you might think) we'll get even more confirmation of this. The official name seems to be the main argument for the move, but it's not the main consideration under article title policy. Andrewa (talk) 04:35, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.