Talk:Rula Jebreal

Mistakes! Citizenship, ethnicity and birthplace

Or are they not mistakes?

Rula Jebreal was not born in Jerusalem, but in Haifa.

She is Arab and from Palestine, but she is also of Israeli nationality from her birth, so that the word "Palestinian" is not correct if uncommented.

These datas (place of birth and nationality) can be found in declarations by Rula herself, for instance in this one on the French Channel Public Sénat (minutes 26-32) (in English)[1].

If the writer’s target of is to hide the fact that she is an Israeli (of the Arab part of the population), it is a stalinian-type conception of history, an offence against Rula Jebreal’s personality and against the reputation of Wikipedia.

Of a job in Cairo, I have found no evidence, but if this happens to be a mistake, it is less important.

I shall make the changes, if necessary, but I'd prefer them to be made by whoever may be concerned.

With best regards.

--PUNKAHARJU44 (talk) 20:35, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

i made the changes, old references at wrong place of birth [2] i leave the palestinian moniker since she identifies as such. Slowking4 (talk) 21:49, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

What she considers is not important. Wikipedia collects data, no opinions. The fact is that she was born with Israeli citizenship and is now Italian. Calling her "Palestine" because she likes most is simply distort reality. Please, change this wrong data and put the correct. --Communeiro (talk) 17:01, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

well all the verifiable sources i could find call her "palestinian", Haaretz, and The Independent. therefore i will change it back. if you can find any source that calls her "Israeli Arab", please cite it. Slowking4 (talk) 19:02, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

I added references showing that she has dual Israeli-Italian citizenship (full Israeli citizenship, not only "Israeli passport"), and that ethnically she is partially Nigerian (this is also visible). These are facts. She very probably does not have Palestinian citizenship of any sort, and if she does, a reference is needed.

There is also no such thing as "Arab-Israeli citizenship" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.173.18.28 (talk) 22:43, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

There is also no such ethnic group as "Arab born in Israel". Her ethnicity can be described as "Palestinian Arab", "Levantine Arab", or simply "Arab". "Palestinian Arab" is the most common way to describe the Arab citizens of Israel. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.173.25.253 (talk) 01:06, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Having said that, Like many Palestinian citizens of Israel, she chooses to describe herself as Palestinian. She should be referred to in the text (not template) as Palestinian. This does not contradict her being born in Israel and having Israeli citizenship. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.173.16.152 (talk) 00:20, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Jebreal is not a Palestinian. She is an Israeli Arab having been born in Israel and holds full Israeli citizenship. An independent analysis clearly demonstrates she is Israeli, not Palestinian. Therefore I am confused and concerned as to why the label of a Palestinian is being forced on her when she clearly is not. New England Cop (talk) 18:28, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

because there is no wp:reliable source that calls her "israeli arab"; there are two that call her palestinian. you are entitled to your opinion, but here you need sourcing to write articles. 98.163.68.171 (talk) 18:35, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

The "sourcing" comes from Wikipedia which erroneously refers to her as a Palestinian. This is just common sense- if you are born in America you are an American, if you are born in Canada you are a Canadian. New England Cop (talk) 23:37, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

The sourcing does not come from Wikipedia. The subject is Israeli but the Palestinian label is the subject's label of choice. Have a read through the reliable sources cited where she describes herself (in interviews for example), and is described by reliable third party sources, as Palestinian, among other things. It's common decency to honor a living person's stated identity and this is a sensitive issue that should be handled carefully by an encyclopedia. Citizenship should be included of course, but identity is more complicated than citizenship, especially in Israel and the Israeli occupied territories. Wikipedia handles this quite seamlessly for other identities (e.g. Scottish). Sean.hoyland - talk 17:01, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

Facts vs fantasy. Which one will Wikipedia report? New England Cop (talk) 02:29, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

I don't understand. What is the fantasy ? It is a fact that the subject of this article describes herself and is described by reliable sources as Palestinian. The sources are there. Have you read them ? The article should reflect that fact. She has also described herself as an Israeli Palestinian by the way. Editors are required to be able to deal with facts like these. For editors who have a problem with the word Palestinian it's best to stay away from articles about living people who think of themselves as Palestinian among other things. Sean.hoyland - talk 16:43, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

You people need to get your facts straight, she isn't even full Arab. She is half Nigerian on her father's side so calling her just an "Palestinan Arab" is a strech. Akmal94 (talk) 17:12, 12 January 2016 (UTC) http://ethnicelebs.com/rula-jebreal

A couple of million Americans who are 1/4 from somewhere else just got really annoyed at you. Zero^talk 23:46, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

Facts>annoyance. Millions of Muslims were annoyed when Wikipedia put up pictures of Mohammed showing his face but facts trump annoyance. New England Cop (talk) 03:23, 6 March 2016 (UTC)

It sounds to me that she is referring to her "Palestinian" ethnicity. Nothing refutes that she is an Israeli-Italian national and according to guidelines, we should consider her as such. See: MOS:OPENPARA Nationality should be in the lead, while ethnicity should not. This is pretty clear and it appears we are letting political ideology determine that we should not consider her an Israeli which is vastly WP:OP. Now if she said she is a Palestinian citizen (national) which she has not said, that might be a different story. There are many American citizens for example that say they are "Irish," "Italian," "Haitian" etc. but are just American, born and raised in the country with US passports. This case is no different. Savvyjack23 (talk) 17:48, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

Note to remember, a lot of Palestinians do not recognize the partition of Israel as a state separate from Palestine. I believe we are allowing ourselves to succumb to worldly views and opinions rather than stating the facts as an encyclopedia should be covering. Savvyjack23 (talk) 17:56, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

There are two different parameters, "Nationality" and "Citizenship." Unless they're meant to be completely redundant, then putting "Israeli" as her nationality is not appropriate. Rula Jebreal is an Israeli and Italian citizen, who views herself as a Palestinian. Citizenship is more of a legal matter than nationality. Especially in complex situations like the one in Israel, where a large part of the country doesn't necessarily identify with the state, there's a distinction between the concepts of citizenship and nationality. -Thucydides411 (talk) 00:13, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

Infobox

Just fixed native name parameter that would not show; attempting to fix the ethnicity. Does anyone know if there is a working para for it under the "person" infobox? Savvyjack23 (talk) 18:46, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

Hebrew transliteration

Contrary to the fact that "Israeli" should lead in this article, while Palestinian, her ethnicity, should be mentioned in her biography, I do think that the Hebrew translation of her name is not at all needed. This is an English encyclopedia pertaining to an Arabic name. A Frenchman (ethnicity-wise) born in Spain whose name "Jean-Charles" is not going to have a Spanish translation rendering it as Juan Carlos unless it was a nickname or something or well known as. Let's get it right please. Savvyjack23 (talk) 19:16, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

I retract. I see many articles for example, Greeks of Arab descent using both Greek and Arabic transliterations for people born in Greece. Also, her name in a quick search doesn't exactly have Arabic roots either. Rula is actually Latin for ruler whereas Jebreal in a search I conducted is virtually unknown. In fact, those with Greek names do not get the Arabic transliteration, while Arabic origin ones do without the Greek. In this case it is neither Israeli or Arabic so I think it is in our best interests for the article to have it remain the way that it is, which is neutral. Good job. Savvyjack23 (talk) 19:45, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

References to anonymous source in page six

There have been multiple edits and reverts here regarding an allegation of a personal relationship with roger waters, but the only source continues to be an anonymous source reported by gossip column Page Six. While other references are cited, each of those cite the same Page Six source. Quantity does not = verification. In this case, the allegation is gossip and runs afoul of Wikipedia's policy for biographies of living persons and its policy against tabloid sourcing. GrosvenorMetro (talk) 01:08, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

I reverted the initial removal by GrosvenorMetro because I saw the different sources claiming the relationship but after they explained on my talk page that it all seems to steam from this one source, I looked into it further. I can't find any other source that announces them together or their break up apart from any that quote Page Six. I agree that unless better sources can be found, it shouldn't be referenced in this article. NZFC^(talk) 02:08, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

The same gossip is on Roger Waters page it needs to be removed — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:387:9:3:0:0:0:B2 (talk) 22:37, 31 December 2017 (UTC)

This user GrosvenorMetro has only edited this article nothing else there is an confict of interest here while the New York post is not the New York Times it is still a major newspaper with the same same libel concerns the story was not retracted nor was the paper sued it was used as a source for dozens of stories by major newspapers and thus should stay in the article — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:387:9:3:0:0:0:B2 (talk) 01:13, 1 January 2018 (UTC)

Also if the jp wrote it then they fact checked it http://m.jpost.com/Not-Just-News/Snack-Bites/Palestinian-power-couple-splits-Roger-Waters-Rula-Jebreal-part-ways-467705

Then find a source that mentions the relationship that is separate from the gossip section of the New York Post (Page Six). As even the JP is a copy from them and not their own independent story. Otherwise it's a WP:BLP violation and should t be added. Wikipedia is not a gossip website. NZFC^(talk) 04:06, 1 January 2018 (UTC)

How about this interview with Roger Waters (in german)? http://www.nw.de/kultur_und_freizeit/magazin/kopf_der_woche/21809422_Roger-Waters-Trumps-Weltbild-ist-widerlich.html

• Was nehmen Sie aus der beendeten Beziehung mit der palästinensischen Schriftstellerin und Journalistin Rula Jebreal mit?

Waters: Dass Leidenschaft geil ist. Und dass Leidenschaft ein knappes Gut ist im Leben. Wenn du die Chance hast, Leidenschaft zu erfahren, in welcher Form auch immer, dann nimm diese Chance wahr. Gesellt sich dann der Schmerz zur Freude hinzu, dann tut er das eben. Denn die Leidenschaft ist jeden Tiefschlag wert.

• What do you think of the relationship ended with the Palestinian writer and journalist Rula Jebreal?

Waters: That passion is awesome. And that passion is a scarce good in life. If you have the chance to experience passion, in whatever form, then take that chance. Then, when the pain adds to the joy, then he does that. Because passion is worth every drop.Patapsco913 (talk) 18:13, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

Arab-Israeli or Palestinian?

Ok, so let us start collecting sources about what Rula Jebreal calls herself, Huldra (talk) 22:58, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Arab-Israeli

• 2014, CNN : Arab-Israeli

Palestinian

• "Rula's View". Vogue. Retrieved 2019-07-13. He stopped when he got to Rula and introduced himself. "Are you Indian?" he asked. "No, I'm Israeli." "So you're Jewish?" "No. I am Palestinian.{{cite web}}: CS1 maint: url-status (link) 2019
• "Rula Jebreal: How I'm Treated as a Minority in Israel". Tikkun. Retrieved 2019-07-13.

Discussion

Who said those are mutually exclusive? Also, why are you putting a quote where she refers to herself as BOTH Israeli and Palestinian solely under the "Palestinian" section? If we are going to have this discussion, we'll need a little more honesty than that. Daveout (talk) 23:25, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

This is all going to turn into a really sad waste of time. Daveout, can we just return to the perfectly good first sentence that the article had until a few days ago? Rula is a Palestinian, and she has dual Israeli-Italian citizenship. It says everything, and really shouldn't be offensive to anyone. For the first time in the history of Israeli-Palestinian-related articles on Wikipedia, maybe we can skip all the pointless ideological fights (Who is a Palestinian? Is "Palestinian" a nationality? Can Arabs born in Israel who consider themselves Palestinian truly be Palestinian?) and just do something reasonable. There's really nothing more pathetic than nationalist battles being fought out on Wikipedia. So let's be reasonable. Please. -Thucydides411 (talk) 23:44, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Yes, I am afraid this will become a time-waste.

Also: Jebreal said "Israeli" (not "Arab Israeli") I assumed she referred to her citizenship at the time. And do anyone really think that not placing it under the "Arab Israeli"-label (when she didn't refer to herself as that) is dishonest?

And now I see her quote is censored again: haveing her stating her "Israeli" (citizenship) is taken for support that she should be called "Arab Israeli" </facepalm> This discussion is going downhill fast, Huldra (talk) 23:55, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

@Thucydides411: Thanks for finally speaking to me reasonably instead of threateningly. Of course you can change it back if you absolutely MUST, i don't own this article, i just try to keep it factually accurate. It's all very subtle, but i have a feeling that this avoidance to call her Israeli may be, to some extent, an attempt not to recognize Israel somehow. The previous lead that you are referring to is not consistent with other biographies in this encyclopedia. It presented her descendance (the culture of her ancestors) and her citizenship (which may or may not be someone's birthplace) but not her actual birthplace. Can you show me another biography, of a non-palestinian, in which something like this happens? "Most arabs who were born in Israel prefer to be called Palestinians". Well, I'm sure most Jews born in the West-Bank consider themselves Israelis. Should we acknowledge that too? Can't you see how this "personal preferences first, facts last (if any)" can be dangerous? especially for an encyclopedia? I URGE you not to follow this path, the article looks fine and accurate now. I won't insist on reverting if you change it, I just wish I could make you see how things like this are no good. Daveout (talk) 01:51, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

@Huldra: Quote:do anyone really think that not placing it under the "Arab Israeli"-label (when she didn't refer to herself as that) is dishonest?

VERY dishonest!!! Daveout (talk) 01:51, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

?????? Do you see what you just wrote? Is double negative too much to handle?? You are saying the same as if anyone does not refer to themselves as, say, "Jewish", then it is dishonest not to refer to them as ..."Jewish"??

This seriously does not make any sense to me, Huldra (talk) 23:04, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

@Huldra:The dishonesty lies in the fact that Rula refers to herself as Israeli, Palestinian, and Israeli-Arab, but for ~sOmE rEaSoN~ one of those is being left out. Daveout (talk) 01:14, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

@Daveout: But the discussion here is about the "Vogue"-source, where Jebreal explicitly refers to herself as "Palestinian", which you then remove, while keeping the "Vogue"-source as a reference for her being "Israeli Arab"! To repeat: nowhere in the "Vogue"-source does she refer to herself (or is referred to as) an "Israeli Arab". Huldra (talk) 20:33, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

@Huldra:⭐🏆🏅A BARNSTAR FOR YOUR AMAZING DEFLECTIONS 🏅🏆⭐: You really know how to miss the point, huh?. (Just kidding, this whole discussion is probably already stabilized and I wont insist on it. Anyway, stay safe and happy).Daveout (talk) 05:35, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Please note that the parts of this article which are related to the Arab-Israeli conflict are covered by ARBPIA. That clearly includes the question of whether someone identifies as Palestinian. In particular, a 1RR rule applies and I expect you all to obey it. Zero^talk 05:00, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

@Zero0000: Does the ARBPIA have anything to say about the identity\nationality of Palestinians who have also publicly referred to themselves as Israelis or Israeli-Arabs? Daveout (talk) 06:04, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

@Daveout: Yes of course. Ethnic identity is not the same thing as citizenship. Zero^talk 06:35, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

@Zero0000: Ok, could you please post the links to those ARBPIA discussions\resolutions here? (if you have the time and will, of course) I think they'll be very helpful for all of us here. (Even though I've given up patrolling this article, as I said. I just think it's very ~very~ uncommon for biographies not to mention the individual's birthplace on the lead. Opting instead to mention their ethnicity and citizenship. Strange. Very strange...) Daveout (talk) 07:33, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

@Daveout: ARBPIA applies to "any pages and edits that could be reasonably construed as being related to the Arab-Israeli conflict". There is no detailed list of topics. I think you are confused by what the terms mean and their political impact. "Palestinian" does not mean "born in Palestine", nor does "Israeli" mean "born in Israel". Looking at your edit summaries, you made both those mistakes. Think of a US citizen who identifies as "African-American"; it is not a contradiction as many people are both (including many people born in other countries). Some people who are Israeli citizens call themselves Arabs, some call themselves Palestinians, and some are happy both ways. None of these self-identifications indicate denial of the existence of Israel (another one of your mistakes). Zero^talk 08:50, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

@Zero0000: There are no mistakes. I never claimed anything like those statements that you’re attributing to me. Also, being African-American is more of a racial thing, it has nothing to do with what is being discussed here. Daveout (talk) 01:14, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

@Daveout: The issue of Arab identity in Israel is quite a bit different from ethnic identity in most other countries. There is a Palestinian national movement, which views Arabs in Israel as part of the Palestinian nation. Rula Jebreal is often described as "Palestinian" (The Guardian: The film is based on the real-life experiences of Palestinian journalist Rula Jebreal; The Times The Palestinian journalist Rula Jebreal; Time Magazine: Rula Jebreal is an Italo-Palestinian journalist, novelist and screenwriter who was raised in East Jerusalem), and often calls herself "Palestinian." She was raised in a Palestinian orphanage in East Jerusalem, where probably the majority of the population considers themselves Palestinian. So comparing her to someone who calls themselves "Italian American" would not really be accurate. It's a somewhat different issue.

Nobody is trying to avoid recognizing Israel. I really hate these nationalist conflicts on Wikipedia. I think that the description, Palestinian foreign policy analyst, journalist, novelist and screenwriter with dual Israeli and Italian citizenship is informative and neutral. It isn't an attack on the state of Israel - her citizenship is stated explicitly. But removing the description "Palestinian" from the first sentence just seems really strange for an article about a prominent Palestinian activist who grew up in East Jerusalem, who calls herself "Palestinian," and who is widely described as a "Palestinian journalist" in the media. -Thucydides411 (talk) 12:25, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

@Thucydides411: Well, likewise, I think it's very strange for a biography not to mention someone's birthplace. Also, you forgot to change her nationality in the InfoBox. (But how do we know her nationality? She is palestinian, but does she reject the Israeli nationality? How can we know that?) Daveout (talk) 15:43, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Daveout, her place of birth is stated in the first sentence of the Early Life section. This is a very common location for place of birth to be stated in biographies. It is past time for you to give up. Zero^talk 03:25, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

I frankly don't know why we have both "Nationality" and "Citizenship" entries in the Infobox, and I don't know if there's an ARBPIA guideline on how to list the "Nationality" of Arabs in Israel who consider themselves "Palestinian." This could get very tricky, especially for people who live in East Jerusalem, which is mostly Palestinian and not internationally recognized as part of Israel, but which Israel considers to be part of its territory. -Thucydides411 (talk) 14:48, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

It's worse than that, since "nationality" and "citizenship" have traditionally been distinguished in Israel. See this. People who want their nationality (le'om) recorded as Israeli have been refused by the courts. Zero^talk 15:33, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

@Thucydides411: I didn't know that the concept of "nationality" was so troublesome in Israel. If I understood it correctly, Israel doesn't recognize "Israeli" as a nationality, opting instead to classify its inhabitants by ethnicity and citizenship. At the same time, other countries don't seem to have problems when recognizing and classifying anyone born in Israel as "Israeli nationals". The nationality entry should be removed from the InfoBox (in my opinion). Also, sorry for being somewhat rude before, I honestly thought that this discussion was worth having and I've learned a lot from it. Daveout (talk) 05:35, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

I removed nationality. Zero^talk 06:39, 8 June 2020 (UTC)