Talk:Runic insignia of the Schutzstaffel

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Different sources[edit]

It would be helpful if this article were to include a discussion of how many of these "runes" actually were ancient runes, how many were of relatively recent origin, how many were adaptations of older runes, and how many were simply made up for this purpose. Clearly, these are of a number of different origins, but I sure don't know enough to make the distinction. --Piledhigheranddeeper (talk) 16:54, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

They all derive from List's Armanen runes. Otherwise, you can check for yourself form Elder Futhark—the oldest runic alphabet—onward; you'll find that the inspiration is pretty transparent. :bloodofox: (talk) 21:45, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
They don't all derive from von List - and, in particular, the the SS's use of the yr-rune to mean "death" does not derive from him. In Das Geheimnis der Runen ("The Secret of the Runes") (1908) von List says of the Yr-rune, 'The "yr-rune" is the inverted "man-rune", and as it designates the bow, so too does it present the waxing and waning moon in contrast to the full moon of the "man-rune", and so in the first instance it refers to the mutability of the moon, in the second instance as the "error-rune"-referring to the lunarlike mutability of the feminine essence, portrayed in later verses of the "Havamal".' (p.19)
Where then did the SS get this symbol from?
The typographer Rudolf Koch included it in Der Zeichenbuch (1923) but doesn't give any source. Der Zeichenbuch was first published in English as The Book of Signs in 1930 and there was a popular reprint in 1955. Marshall46 (talk) 13:44, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
It appears that this notion originated among von List, Wiligut, or the NSDAP. Most likely it's just an extension of what von List has come up with above, perhaps by analyzing the Younger Futhark out of context with the Elder Futhark and deciding that Maðr (Old Norse "man") represents "life" and thus that its pictographic inversion, Yr (Old Norse "yew"), must also yield a semantic inversion; "death". One could discuss the links to "death" with the yew as well (poison, hanging, etc.). However, to my knowledge, there is no evidence for such concern with the orientation of runic staves in the historical runic record. In the Elder Futhark, *mannaz is the "man" rune and *eihwaz "yew". :bloodofox: (talk) 18:28, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
If you read von List, you will see that this notion did not originate with him: I have given a quote from him regarding the yr-rune above. What are your sources for the interpretations you give and what exactly did Wiligut say about the yr-rune? According to the Wikipedia article, the yr-rune did not exist in the Elder Futhark. Marshall46 (talk) 09:37, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
I believe I made it fairly clear that yr is not an Elder Futhark rune above. The translations from Proto-Germanic and Old Norse I give above are standard in modern runology; see any reputable scholarly work on the subject matter. While the notion of the "death rune" seems to have originated from the circle I describe above (and, indeed, von List hints as much in the passage you mention, albeit I haven't looked any further into it) and while it has no ancient precedent, there is a possibility that some philologist prior also came to said conclusion due to the implications of 'yew' versus 'man'. :bloodofox: (talk) 18:23, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

article scope[edit]

I don't know if it was a good idea to redirect sig (rune) to an article about the SS specifically. Certainly, this is the most widely known use of the Armanen runes, but still, if this article is ostensibly about the SS, it shouldn't propose to embark on a lengthy tangent on the history of the runes in general.

The entire paragraph about runes in Germanic mysticism does not belong here, it belongs in the Armanen runes article. --dab (𒁳) 07:56, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Also, it turns out that the main source this thing appears to be based on, Yenne (2010)[1], is just the usual "Nazi occultism" pop culture cruft and not worth the paper it is printed on.

I suggest this can be salvaged by a split between Armanen runes (the content on the actual use of runes in Nazi Germany, not just the SS), and Uniforms and insignia of the Schutzstaffel (which is already a dedicated article on SS insignia). --dab (𒁳) 08:11, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

SS = ZZ??[edit]

SS = mirror of ZZ??

E.g.:

  • The sig rune (or Siegrune) symbolised victory (sieg).

Pronunciations: Z = Zig, Ziegrune, Zieg

  • Z = Zeal / enthusiasm
  • The swastika was inverted?
  • The ZZ was mirrored in SS?