Talk:Rus' (people)

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[edit] split

this is a classic {{coatrack}} article. Rather than the people, it discusses the etymology of Rus. The people and their history are in fact treated at Rus' Khaganate. The etymology ("normanist/antinormanist") should be discussed at etymology of Rus. --dab (𒁳) 13:07, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Merge the article into Etymology of Rus.--Berig 18:44, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

If anything Etymology of Rus should be merged into Rus' (people). more in detail about it at Talk:Etymology_of_Rus_and_derivatives [1]--Termer 18:25, 20 October 2007 (UTC) PS. Updated the tag--Termer 18:30, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

They should be merged. The article on the Etymology of Rus in any case is repetitive and confusing, with its first two sections seemingly going over the same territory twice, and leaving some things in a muddle. It's a "true fact," for example, that the (modern) Finnish word for Swedes is routsi (and for Sweden, Routsimaa -- the land of the routsi). Analogous words are found in Estonian (rootsi and Rootsimaa) referring to Swedes and Sweden. This isn't proof of the Nordic roots of the Rus', but it's consistent with it.--Mack2 (talk) 06:17, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, it doesn't matter really --Mack2 (talk) but let me point it out anyway. the (modern) Finnish word for Swedes is NOT routsi but ruotsalaiset and for Sweden, it's not Routsimaa but Ruotsi--Termer (talk) 07:10, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
PS. Also, either its a proof for anything or not, is not for us to decide whose job is just to refer to any published source out there and cite what it says. Merge or not? Sure, just that it would make sense to merge the Etymology article with this one, not vice versa like suggested in the beginning I think.--Termer (talk) 07:16, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
PPS. actually, as it appeared it mattered after all because --Mack2 had already updated the Etymology article according to the false meanings of the words. I had to revert the edit. --Termer (talk) 07:28, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. Ruotsi, rootsi. Finnish, Estonian for Sweden. But rootslane in Estonian (ruotsalainen in Finnish) for a Swede; while in Estonian rootsi also means "Swedish" as in rootsi keel ("Swedish language").(talk) 09:29, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

"Rootsi" on it's own does not mean "Swedish" even though the spelling is the same in "rootsi keel" that means "Swedish language". The logic and grammar of finnic languages is very different from Indo-European languages --Termer (talk) 17:03, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

the problem here is that this article isn't about any "people", it is about a name, about sources that attest that name, and about the historiography of the Rus' Khaganate, all of which is fully discussed elsewhere. --dab (𒁳) 17:39, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Sorry but you're incorrect at this time. In Greek and Arabian sources the "Ros" ("Rus") people are identified with the Scythians, the Huns or the Goths, later with the Norsemen..., Also the Rus people refers to the people of Kievan Rus "people of Rus" meaning basically the ancestors of modern Russians, Ukrainians and Belarusians. Therefore suggesting that Rus' (people) means only and is strictly limited to the people of Rus' Khaganate simply isn't true.--Termer (talk) 18:12, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

If anything than Rus' (region) perhaps should be merged with something. Either with the people or the name article or most likely with Kievan Rus since the region article doesn't say anything new really and even uses the map of the Kievan Rus.--Termer (talk) 08:47, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Rus' (region) is a (good-faith) content fork, duplicating material from the more mature articles on Kievan Rus and Rus (name). The idea that the state and the historical region are two different things is not really supportable—Kievan Rus was not a country in the modern sense. The article's contents should be rolled into those two articles.
The same can be said about much of the content of Rus' (people). There's a bit too much overlap and forking for me to be comfortable with this whole set of articles. —Michael Z. 2008-11-27 01:22 z
People should always come first I think.:-) Because it's the people who give names, colonize regions, establish states etc. And therefore any history is a history of people, not a history of impersonal names or regions. So if anything, all related regional and/or name articles should be merged into this one in my opinion. Also, the article could be renamed simply to Rus'ian people, that has been both applied to the Varangians in the 9th century all the way to eastern Slavs until the16-17 centuries, instead of using ambiguous Rus' that can refer to either the people, the lands or the state.--Termer (talk) 06:13, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
The article about the ethnic group is called East Slavs. The Rus were originally a separate foreign ruling class, who sooner or later became naturalized. —Michael Z. 2008-11-27 06:38 z
Sure, that's more or less exactly what I just said, the Rus' were originally a group of Vikings/Varangians, most likely from a region that is called Roslagen in modern Sweden. However, after the Varangians assimilated, the name Rus' was applied to the Eastern Slavs until 17-18 century, until Peter the Great came up with Rossiya that is the origin of the modern name for Russia and Russians. Please see for example The Russians, Rus As Land and People By R. R. Milner-Gulland.--Termer (talk) 07:25, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
PS. Also if anybody says that the Russian scholars no longer dispute the Normanist theory by saying dated info. they no longer do, that's fine by me. just that it would still need an appropriate source claiming that there is a consensus now among Russian scholars and therefore the Anti-Normanist theory is obsolete. until that is not happened, nothing justifies sipmly removing sourced material from the article without providing any sources for reference to an alternative claim.--Termer (talk) 06:22, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 13:25, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Indo-iranian hypothesis

О. Н. Трубачев. К истокам Руси Г.В. Вернадский —Preceding unsigned comment added by Knyf (talk • contribs) 23:06, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Maybe a solution

Is it that hard to call the Varangians and Rus a mixture of Finno-Ugric and Norse people? There's evidence to believe that Rurik was of Finno-Ugric origin, and many of the place-names and settlements have Finnic roots.

The old Proto-Slavic, Baltic and Germanic peoples all had the same root from the beginning, so I don't see why this is a big deal. CormanoSanchez (talk) 05:00, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Swedish language explains the duplicity of the roots 'Rossia' or 'Russki'.

The point is in Swedish language ,"o",/sounding like in "pot"/, is pronounced as "u",/sounding like in "put"/, in many cases. In English "o" sounds by default as "ou",but in few cases it is "u" too,in "to" for example.In Swedish good examples are words 'bor'-'boende' or 'hon'. The verb 'bor' -'to live' and corresponding noun 'Boende'-inhabitant are read like this 'bor'-sounds as buhr ,word 'hon'-'she' also sounds as hun. In Swedish there two other ways to spell out "o" ,in some cases "a" can sound as "o" and ,of course, "å" which always sounds as "o". In practice, it explains why "Ros" and "Russ" are interchangeable. For genuine Swedish speaker "o" sounds somewhere in-between "o" and "u". In some dialects it is sooner "u". Russian does not have such sounding for "o"at all, in some cases it can be heard as "a"/sounding like in 'path'/ ,but never as "u" - Russian "y". Which means Russians can not explain how it is that there're different spelling roots in names "Rossiya""Rus""Russki". While Swedish language has such feature. Another important point is that since Swedish is small language and is little known by world the info is easy neglected in favor to bigger and more known Russian,yet an objective scientist would find interesting things. The Swedish adjective's ending "ska" might be spent attention on. Here goes a quote from article Rus(name)- -**Slavic adjective "russkiy"** Well,it is not only Slavic adjective,as brief check on Swedish will show you. In Swedish you say -'pråta på Engelska'-speak English 'på Franska'-on French 'på Polska'-on Polish 'på Svenska'-on Swedish 'på Ryska'-on Russian 'på Norska'-on Norwegian

  • på Danska'-on Danish

So as you see Swedish adjective ends in rather similar way.I regret to admit that Slavicist theorists in Russia never really bothered to learn some Scandinavian ,just for once for objectivity sake,instead of directly charging into patriotic minded theorizing.The truth in such cases is the first victim. ¨ 17:47, 15 January 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Edelward (talk • contribs) 15:35, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Interesting hypotheses. Do you know where this is published? - 7-bubёn >t 23:31, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Interesting. But still you walk around word construction of Indo-European Caucasian language. Every one of them is similar. Particularly when you mention ancient words. Even old-english "thou knowest" = you know is pronounced almost like modern russian "ty znaesh". I mean the construction is absolutely the same because russian is quite "orthodox" language comparing to English in the meaning of its semantics. So "aa snakke" or "aa spaake" (don't remember which is correct - I'm not that fluent in nordic) "...paa Ryska" is just similar construction of relative languages. It could play little to no part in the ethimologuy of the word "Rus". PS: The best translation of the word "Rusyi" into modern russian is not "dark blond" as mentioned here. It is closer to the color of wheat. If you've ever seen the wheat or if you remember, for example, how Anna Kournikova's hair color did look like you'll catch up with what I mean =) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.70.236.62 (talk) 23:16, 1 February 2009 (UTC) You misplace categories,alas,-it won't work. You try to prove that Indo-European words are all the same,but here I was talking about rules of pronunciation not etymology.Anywhere since Arabs had names for Medieval Eastern Slavic *Saqaliba* ,they knew the difference between Slavic and Vikings the word *Rus* they used for Scandinavians. On 'hair color' naming theory : since original Western Russia was populated by Balts,Sarmatians,Finnish(in fact the most popular hero of Russian tales Ilya Muromets was possibly from Finnish tribe Muromi) for Eastern-Slavic to call themselves 'fair-haired' would not have any meaning at all due the similarity to neighbors.With Mongolian-Turkic conquest of Russia many parts of pre-invasion Rus got new Turkic population ,Cossacks,for example,are russified Turkic people(*Turkic word,qazaq, which means "adventurer"*-quote 'Cossaks');the Turkic Qasim Khanate' in Ryazan existed only 196 km East of Moscow etc etc.The regions with remained Slavic population invested new local meaning into the old name of their original lords to differ themselves from the Tatar newcomers.But they have no reason to differentiate themselves in the 8-9th century.The name of river Ros near Kiev would be far more serious localist theory then semantics based on modern Russian.Anywhere, I believe in Swedish theory .Scandinavians have not mutated their namings.The Goths left Sweden in the 3th century BC ,yet some immigrants from Swedish Gotland moved to leave together with Crimean Goths in the 12th century AC.Ancestry,kinship,namings were well preserved in Scandinavia,so if people from Roslagen area,which has the same name till our days, embarked into foreign adventures it sooner that initially their name was the one for the new nation they've created.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Edelward (talk • contribs) 17:30, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
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