|This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Russians article.|
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- Why would you use a Tatar sportswoman to illustrate Russians? --184.108.40.206 (talk) 13:29, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
- I add people as in case of other etnic groups (for instance Ukrainian). It has 25 people. If there is any question, you can change some people to other. --Glovacki (talk) 06:43, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
- I add: Leo Tolstoy, Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky, Konstantin Tsiolkovsky, Anton Chekhov, Feodor Chaliapin, Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, Andrei Sakharov, Lev Yashin, Vladimir Vysotsky. --Glovacki (talk) 07:14, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
- That's not relevant. The Ukrainians page is monitored by nationalists who serve no purpose on Wikipedia. Your changes do not benefit the article at all. Khazar (talk) 00:29, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
- Everything. This edit of yours is unconstructive and serves no purpose to the article. The number of people in the infobox isn't as important as you think. The people represented is what matters. I oppose your change and I'll give you a week to create and establish a consensus. If can't do so, then I'll simply revert. Khazar (talk) 23:43, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
- Since you haven't established a consensus, I've reverted your irrelevant edit. Khazar (talk) 17:09, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
The infobox redux
The infobox have a number of conflicting purposes:
- The people there are some sort of a bragging list, showing different contributions of Russians to the world;
- At the same time this is supposed to show how an average Russian looks like (and typical variations of the norm)
- The pictures should be of reasonable quality and copyright-free.
Thus, the people in the infobox should be:
- World-famous, preferably household names known to an average en-Wikipedia reader (American or British high school student or graduate). Like e.g. Mendeleev, Leo Tolstoy or Tchaikovsky.
- Usually cause positive connotations both in the West and in Russia. That excludes e.g. Ivan IV, Lenin, Brezhnev, Gorbachev or Putin.
- Self-considered ethnic Russian - that excludes e.g. Boris Pasternak (a Jew) or Stanislav Richter (Baltic German).
- Not being of very unusual appearance. Some people thinks that this e.g. excludes Pushkin, as his African ancestry is not usual for Russians even in the modern times and was extremely unusual in 19th century.
- Have a good quality picture unquestionably copyright-free.
- We should provide a balanced mix of genders, epochs, occupations.
- The number of the pictures is limited. 16 is OK, 20 maybe OK, more seems to be excessive.
No principal objections but:
- Korolev's picture is almost certainly a copyvio Alex Bakharev (talk) 05:29, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
- Are Oleg Losev and Alexander Stepanovich Popov really household names in the West?
- Alexander Suvorov is rumored to be half-Armenian, is is a problem.
- No composers, musicians or artists. Only three women Alex Bakharev (talk) 05:29, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
I am strongly against inclusion of Vladimir Putin as he is a very controversial modern politician who a significant part of our readers consider a criminal. Also is Boris Chertok a household name in the west? According to his Russian wikipage Chertok was born in a Jewish family, is it disqualifies him from the box on an ethnic Russian article?
My suggestion for 16 people: Nevsky, Peter the Great, Lomonosov, Suvorov, Mendeleev, Tchaikovsky, Tolstoy, Dostoevsky, Tsvetaeva, Korolyov, Pavlov, Kandinsky, Pavlova, Sikorsky, Gagarin, Netrebko — Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.127.116.11 (talk • contribs)
- No problems with any of them. Have not checked that we have good copyright free images of the modern people. Other suggestions? Alex Bakharev (talk) 00:27, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
Strongly Oppose - For said reasons below.
- Sergei Korolev can be replaced. I can overlook that.
- Alexander Popov is a household name and recognized as one of the fathers of the radio. Although Oleg Losev isn't, I purposely put him in because his contributions are tremendous despite being largely unknown.
- Suvorov is though to have been 1/4 Armenian. I believe that the general rule should be that someone is at least 1/2 Russian.
- The gender gap is even larger with you proposition so I don't see why you're objecting to a problem that you're seeking to escalate.
- Finding a non-controversial Russian leader is very hard. Which one isn't filled with controversy?
- The ideal size should be 3x5 or 4x4. The only featured article with an infobox about ethnic groups features that style.
- Okay, 18.104.22.168, you've asked me to join in the discussion, so I will. IMHO, I find these galleries to be a sinkhole for editor energy and time (i.e., this is why I don't consider them to add value). They are not even a parameter in the ethnic group infobox, but were introduced by someone at some point because they decided that WP:ITSIMPORTANT. Soon, every ethnic group wanted one. Some are plain laughable (i.e., Italians: Dante Alighieri, Columbus, Bernini, Marco Polo, Machiavelli, et al). I don't know how much time I've wasted on articles on my watchlist where IP and SPA changes to South American galleries have driven myself and other editors mad. Everyone wants to add their favourite rapper, sports hero, TV star, supermodel, etc. and remove ones they don't like. The Romanians warring just got so out of hand that we reached consensus to just delete the gallery... so, that's my personal preference. I wish I could do the same to the Ukrainians article and... well, every article.
- As for Alex's objections to using Pushkin, how do you identify a 'typical' Russian? Do you have access to the DNA of all the people you'd wouldn't object to being representative of "Russians" in order to establish that they are of the correct haplogroup? It's not my intention to be rude about the process of selection, but I honestly don't find these galleries to be of any intrinsic value. As for Alexander Nevsky (Rus' is not "Russia", no matter what kind of spin you try to put on it) and Anna Netrebko (Kuban Cossack ancestry with a Ukrainian surname?) being "Russians"... well, er... --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:46, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
- Your proposal? I find it absurd. Why? I don't need a reason because all these collages are built on opinions. As for Iryna, that's all a matter of opinion and many people like myself do not want Pushkin in the collage. Khazar (talk) 06:19, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
@Iryna Harpy Just a question: Do you like the current version more than mine? I mean, Losev, Prokhorov.... but no Tchaikovsky or Dostoevsky? That's mega bullshit. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 22.214.171.124 (talk) 14:22, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
Factual accuracy tag
Is there any reason for this tag to remain, or are other editors okay with my removing it? I've noted that the archives reflect no discussion surrounding its being placed there, so where is the problem?
As an addendum, I've changed the 'Triune' with 'All-Russian nation' in the see also section as the article was a complete mess and refactored last year. I'll leave it up to other editors' discretion as to whether it is relevant or WP:UNDUE. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:04, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
- The only reason it's there is probably because of the population section in the infobox. The latest censuses from these regions are needed for the article to be "up-to-date". There are a few countries with pre-2009 censuses and that might be why it's there. I'm sure each of the countries in the infobox is quickly updated with the latest census so finding them on their own articles shouldn't be too difficult. I would do it now but real life has never been busier for me right now. Khazar (talk) 04:33, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
- Aha. Okay, I've been keeping my eye on the Russia article (and surrounding articles) and seem to recall a couple of more contemporary sources. Most of my time has been consumed by trying to keep a lid on the POV attacks from various nationalists who haven't gotten their way on the recent events in Ukraine articles. I've got a few things on my plate IRL, but I'll put this on my priority list. Cheers! --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:42, 3 October 2014 (UTC)