Talk:Sabbath in seventh-day churches

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Removal from Seventh-day Adventism series[edit]

There are other Seventh Day denominations, therefore I don't believe that this article should be from the Seventh-day Adventist series. Machadoug (talk) 13:41, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Good job[edit]

This article is going really well. I'm now fully persuaded that it deserves to exist and is not a content fork from Sabbath in Christianity. Thanks to Colin and other contributors for your work. Tonicthebrown 09:56, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Tonic! I expect that contributions to this article and Sabbath in Christianity will be my last major contributions for the foreseeable future. Colin MacLaurin 04:42, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Rename proposal[edit]

As you can see from my recent edits, I've been giving (disambiguation of) Sabbath articles a lot of thought, and I'm familiar with the debate. I'd like to broaden the scope of this article by renaming it "Sabbath in seventh-day churches". It is my belief there needs to be a lot more discussion of seventh-day Christianity that does not tread heavily on the Jewish Sabbath concepts (of course Messianic Judaism would be discussed); and I think that would be the best title and this the best article to build from. ("Seventh-day Sabbath" would not work, e.g.) I see there is a section here already for influence between SDA and other groups, and I'm talking about expanding that a lot, not so much as to drown out the SDA, but enough to give all the other churches due weight somewhere. (Perhaps someone has a better site for this content.)

Well, think about it and respond here. When I finish disambiguating "Sabbath", there will be a lot of links pointing here that are not strictly SDA. I think it would be good (1) to perform the move, (2) to redo the links to the new name, making a list of the articles linked from, and (3) to beef up this article's content by reference to the list. There is a lot to build from. Thanks for your consideration. JJB 12:21, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

I think "Sabbath in Adventism" would be quite logical - i.e. all the Adventist/Millerite groups not just the Seventh-day Adventist Church. If the article were to describe other groups than SDAs, they would want to be closely related, otherwise a list of Sabbath-keeping churches might be better (I think there may have been one once, but it was deleted). I am open to the idea personally, but need some more convincing. Colin MacLaurin (talk) 07:55, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
OK, thanks. I recognize this will take work comparable to the work you have already put in, and so will keep it on the longterm burner. For the nonce, anyone who may be disappointed by my redirecting other seventh-day churches to this article can take the trouble to move the redirect to the "Influence on other groups" section and add the church's details there as a holding bin. It is a temporary disambiguation solution but I do think "Sabbath in seventh-day churches" is an underserved topic. It might need its own article then, with a summary and link of this one. JJB 17:49, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
At a guess, most of the other seventh-day Sabbath churches probably got it from the Adventists anyway (perhaps this would not be true of some African groups, however). I imagine that such churches would use Adventist scholars primarily, e.g. Bacchiocchi. So the change probably is warranted. Colin MacLaurin (talk) 05:05, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Colin! There being no other comment, I'm likely to go ahead with Sabbath in seventh-day churches in the near future. After the new Template:Adventism reminded me to check here, I also thought of Seventh-day Sabbath in Christianity, which I would make a redirect at the same time. Repeat that steps (2)-(3) will also need to follow, and some reorganization and touchup as well. JJB 00:11, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

The present title sounds a little odd. Is the term "seventh-day churches" actually used (i.e. by reliable sources), or is it just a descriptor invented by Wikipedians? What about titling it Seventh-day Sabbatarianism instead? Colin MacLaurin (talk) 11:11, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

That's good too. My intent with last year's title (which I did not seek WP:RS for) was to limit it to Christianity, but my experience to date is that the word "Sabbatarianism" is exclusively Christian, so that's a wash. "Seventh-day church" has many more Google hits than "churches" or "Sabbatarianism"; and "churches" beats "Sabbatarianism" by 98-69, wins Google news by 29-0, and loses Google books by 39-48. So at this second I favor "churches". If we move, it requires requesting a housekeeping deletion first. Influence of the COG branches is visible. Other thoughts? JJB 03:16, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

New Sabbath spinout[edit]

Having considered the state of Sabbath articles closely, I think there is still one topic to create, namely Biblical Sabbath. Currently this phrase redirects to the summary article "Sabbath" even though that article includes many other Sabbath adaptations that are not Biblical. A new article would compile the Biblical references to Sabbath in a thorough, orderly way, and give all the main viewpoints and interpretations of each passage (compare creation according to Genesis, figs in the Bible, wells in the Bible, etc.). None of the current articles do either of these, because they are quite rightly focused on Sabbath in this or that mainstream viewpoint. However, the notion of "Sabbath as the Bible describes it, without making judgments in favor of any viewpoint" is a topic frequently discussed but lacking. No need to warn me about POV risks, because I am already on duty policing those. It is just my observation that, very often, a WP editor wants to refer just to that notion, "Biblical Sabbath with essentially no POV", and has no recourse to do so (as noted, the summary "Sabbath" article is not Biblically limited, and the Biblically based articles give only one POV each). Particularly, there are many links to "Sabbath" that should very clearly, in context, be directed to Biblical Sabbath, and permitting the weaker link is suboptimal and easily remediable. Also, many of the IP contributors to "Sabbath" would do better to have such a separate article; and some of the debates about where to put this or that apologetic (if at all) would be more readily solved if there were a central article. I will be happy to move this forward, but I wanted to get a couple more opinions first, to confirm my belief that this is a good division of topics. Cross-posted to Shabbat, Sabbath in Christianity, and Sabbath in seventh-day churches. JJB 05:45, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Merge proposal (sort of)[edit]

Disagreeing strongly with the logic of the recent split and dab of Sabbath in Christianity, I believe a re-merge would be more harmonious, while the overdue reorg of this sister article can be done at the same time. Here is the proposal from the inelegantly titled new Talk:Christian Sabbath and Sunday observance:

Here's a proposed logical reorganization of affected articles. Using O for Christian Sabbath and Sunday observance, T for Christian Sabbath theology, and S for the extant Sabbath in seventh-day churches (which, we have noted, has always needed reorg ever since it was expanded from an SDA-only article):

Sabbath in Christianity (rejoining two articles split without consensus):

  • Lead (rewritten as SUMMARY of below)
  • 1 Biblical traditions (SUMMARY of Biblical Sabbath: Biblical theology T1)
  • 2 First-day traditions
  • 2.1 Early church (Ignatius+Laodicea fm O1.1; bulk of shorter O1.2-3; Constantine O2.1; 1st-day theology fm T3 as appropriate)
  • 2.2 Middle ages (=O2.2)
  • 2.3 Reformation (=O2.3)
  • 2.4 Modern church (Roman Catholicism O2.4 & shorter T3.2, shorter LDS O2.6, other basic)
  • 3 Other traditions
  • 3.1 Seventh-day traditions (SUMMARY of seventh-day Sabbath)
  • 3.2 Two-day traditions (Eastern Orthodox O2.5, Ethiopian)
  • 3.3 Weekday traditions (=O5)
  • 3.4 Non-Sabbatarian traditions (maybe summary of new article: O6, plus Justin+Irenaeus+Tertullian fm O1.1, Gibbons fm T4.2.3, Brinsmead+Ratzlaff from S4)
  • 4 Other definitions (DAB-style SUMMARIES of Sabbath as seven-day week, High Sabbaths, Shmita, Shabbat Messianic POV, new moon, Day of the Vow, millennialism with eschatological T4.1)

Sabbath in seventh-day churches:

  • Lead (rewritten as SUMMARY of below)
  • 1 Biblical traditions (SUMMARY of Biblical Sabbath)
  • 2 Seventh-day traditions
  • 2.1 Early church (bulk of O1.1; Didache interp, Bacchiocchi fm O1.2; some of history S2.3)
  • 2.2 Middle ages (Africa+Europe O3.1-2 with some of history S3)
  • 2.3 Reformation (bulk of O4, more of history S2.3)
  • 2.4 Modern church (SDB, SDA, WCOG, UCOG, Sabbath-keeping COG, MJ, other fm O4-4.1; S1-2.1, S4-4.1)
  • 2.5 Eschatology (=S2.4, other?)
  • 3 Other traditions
  • 3.1 Interaction with first-day traditions (1st-day and 7th-day POV dialogue: Bauckham to Bacchiocchi fm O1.2, other)
  • 3.2 Interaction with other traditions (non-Sab and 7th-day POV dialogue, stub)

Biblical Sabbath absorbs 7th-day theology fm T2, transfer theology fm T3.1, non-Sabbatarian fm T4.2.1-2, each with balance added; the gigantic T4 footnote insertion should be researched for dropping or shortening; S2.2 should be shortened to a summary of its article on law and any key text moved there; and some of history S3 should move to general SDA history.

During the first week my edits will only be ordinary improvement preparatory to a move and subject to WP:BRD. JJB 20:15, 3 September 2010 (UTC)